2015 Draft

[nawein 324]

We have Mrazek, McCollum, Coreau, Paterson, and Perry. 5 goalie prospects. We don't need more.

We have 5, yes, but none aside from Mrazek have been all that good consistently. Coreau and mccollum have great numbers this year in the AHL, but Coreau had pedestrian numbers at best in the echl. Perry has terrible numbers from what I recall though I admit I didn't look it up, and Paterson is in what, his 5th year in the OHL? And still doesn't have even good numbers. We have prospects but not good ones.

And let's say both goalies get hurt again next year, or the year after. A 1-2 combination of McCollum/Coreau/Paterson scares me. Not that drafting a goalie now will change that, but after this year we won't have a goalie prospect that has the potential to be an NHL starter.

And saying we have 5 we don't need more is like if I were to tell you since we have 30 forward prospects we shouldn't draft any more forwards.

Edited February 5, 2015 by nawein

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

We have 5, yes, but none aside from Mrazek have been all that good consistently. Coreau and mccollum have great numbers this year in the AHL, but Coreau had pedestrian numbers at best in the echl. Perry has terrible numbers from what I recall though I admit I didn't look it up, and Paterson is in what, his 5th year in the OHL? And still doesn't have even good numbers. We have prospects but not good ones.

And let's say both goalies get hurt again next year, or the year after. A 1-2 combination of McCollum/Coreau/Paterson scares me. Not that drafting a goalie now will change that, but after this year we won't have a goalie prospect that has the potential to be an NHL starter.

And saying we have 5 we don't need more is like if I were to tell you since we have 30 forward prospects we shouldn't draft any more forwards.

Paterson played 4.5 years on a brutal Saginaw team and still managed to keep his save% over .900 and was even selected for the world juniors.

Since being traded to Kitchener this year he has posted 2.08 GAA and .932 S%. Not to shabby...

[krsmith17 7,191]

Richdg, just please stop, you're flat out wrong here, and the fact that you're still trying your hardest to prove you're "right" is just laughable at this point... How about you take a poll on what our biggest need is in next years draft? Defense would absolutely be the number one priority on most people's list. Like Son of a Wing said, 60 points is not the benchmark for a second line center, 40-50 is more accurate, with 50 being ideal. Sheahan is in his first full season and he is on pace for 41 points, he will without a doubt, put up 50+ points in this league. I think Larkin's floor is a second line center, with his ceiling being a top line center, which isn't that far fetched at all. He was a 15th overall pick and is already one of the top players in college as a freshman. You can be guaranteed he is going to be developed properly, being in the Wings system and there isn't a doubt in my mind that he will exceed expectations.

Ouellet and Marchenko have passed Sproul in the call-up list because they are the most NHL ready at this point, but they definitely have not come close to passing him in what Holland, Babcock, scouts or anyone else for that matter (except you, for whatever reason..), would project them at in a few years. Sproul projects to be a top 4 defenseman (with the possibility of becoming a top pair) while everyone else projects to be a bottom pair (with the possibility of sneaking in on the second pair). There shouldn't be any debate here, and there wouldn't be if you have followed these guys as much as myself and many others on here...

[krsmith17 7,191]

nawein, Paterson is a very good goalie prospect, and he will make the jump to pro next year. He may start in Toledo, but he very well could be in Grand Rapids straight out of camp, with a definite possibility in making the Griffins roster at some point next year, stealing a spot from McCollum or Coreau (if they both get re-signed). I don't think our goaltending depth is an area of concern, and if it is at some point, there's always the option to sign a veteran to a two-way contract to add depth in the minors...

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I have to disagree regarding the biggest need in the draft. While I agree we definitely don't need more wingers. We can't just expect Larkin to pan out as a top 6 C and for AA to transition to a 2-3C either. From what I understand AA will likely be a winger at the NHL level but could also bust potentially. We need at least one more top 6 C prospect to make sure we don't get caught with our pants down when Z and Dats retire. Sheahan is definitely a 2C but could go down with an injury or leave in FA at some point. At this point we can't afford to miss on ANY of our C prospects - we need some wiggle room. We could also use C's for the purposes of having tracdeable assets too. If we have 3-4 more years with Z and Dats that fits perfectly with a 2015 1st round C spending 3 years developing before coming in to replace the need.

I would say we need to follow-up a 1st round C pick with a couple Dmen for sure. Our current D prospects are almost graduated and we need to refill the cupboard. However - we won't be drafting D prospects for the PRESENT. Although we need help on D now - none of our 2015 draft picks will be sniffing the NHL for quite some time and we really need our current D prospects to pan out well. We realistically need to address our current D through trade or FA in order to make a run at the cup with our current core (Z and Dats).

I don't think Goalie is a need in this draft to be honest. I wouldn't take one in the first 4 rounds.

[number9 3,297]

We have 5, yes, but none aside from Mrazek have been all that good consistently. Coreau and mccollum have great numbers this year in the AHL, but Coreau had pedestrian numbers at best in the echl. Perry has terrible numbers from what I recall though I admit I didn't look it up, and Paterson is in what, his 5th year in the OHL? And still doesn't have even good numbers. We have prospects but not good ones.

And let's say both goalies get hurt again next year, or the year after. A 1-2 combination of McCollum/Coreau/Paterson scares me. Not that drafting a goalie now will change that, but after this year we won't have a goalie prospect that has the potential to be an NHL starter.

And saying we have 5 we don't need more is like if I were to tell you since we have 30 forward prospects we shouldn't draft any more forwards.

McCollum and Coreau have gotten a lot better and Paterson is really good. Been excited about him for a while. The only one I'm not happy with is Perry, and that's mostly cause I just don't know anything about him.

We haven't had this many young goaltenders in our system in a while. Remember when Joey Mac was the starter in GR?

[krsmith17 7,191]

dirtydangles, nope, you're right. There's no way we can just expect a player like Larkin to pan out, but the player we would get at 25th(ish) next year, he, he will be the player of the future. The fact is, Larkin is just as or more likely to meet (exceed) expectations than Mantha or anyone else in our organization. The guy is a stud, and will absolutely be a top 6 center for us in the future. Athanasiou could potentially bust? Sure, so can anyone else's top prospects or any of ours at any other position for that matter... Why do people keep trying to say that these centers may not pan out, just to "try" to prove their point... I get it, our two best players are on the verge of decline and eventually retirement, but the sky isn't falling. Why are the centers more likely to faulter than any other position?

[dirtydangles 1,328]

dirtydangles, nope, you're right. There's no way we can just expect a player like Larkin to pan out, but the player we would get at 25th(ish) next year, he, he will be the player of the future. The fact is, Larkin is just as or more likely to meet (exceed) expectations than Mantha or anyone else in our organization. The guy is a stud, and will absolutely be a top 6 center for us in the future. Athanasiou could potentially bust? Sure, so can anyone else's top prospects or any of ours at any other position for that matter... Why do people keep trying to say that these centers may not pan out, just to "try" to prove their point... I get it, our two best players are on the verge of decline and eventually retirement, but the sky isn't falling. Why are the centers more likely to faulter than any other position?

I think it is just that those C's we have in AA and Larkin are greener than our current D prospects that are a lot closer to being NHL ready (and many of them are already looking very promising in the NHL games so far). Therefore these younger guys have a bigger bust potential. Larkin looks like a stud - I totally agree - but he hasn't even hit the AHL so far (he has done everything I could ask for so far however). If you look at Mantha who has struggled greatly in the AHL you have to think that could happen to others. If we had similarly aged D prospects I would say they have equal bust potential to our C's.

I just don't think we can live post Z and Dats without top 6 C's. Our system and entire team depends on depth down the middle and if we don't have that we will start looking like the Leafs. I don't want to have Sheahan playing out of his element on the top line ala Bozak with his elite winger in Mantha (who may also bust but we have lost of young wingers already in the NHL).

[Richdg 267]

Richdg, just please stop, you're flat out wrong here, and the fact that you're still trying your hardest to prove you're "right" is just laughable at this point... How about you take a poll on what our biggest need is in next years draft? Defense would absolutely be the number one priority on most people's list. Like Son of a Wing said, 60 points is not the benchmark for a second line center, 40-50 is more accurate, with 50 being ideal. Sheahan is in his first full season and he is on pace for 41 points, he will without a doubt, put up 50+ points in this league. I think Larkin's floor is a second line center, with his ceiling being a top line center, which isn't that far fetched at all. He was a 15th overall pick and is already one of the top players in college as a freshman. You can be guaranteed he is going to be developed properly, being in the Wings system and there isn't a doubt in my mind that he will exceed expectations.

Ouellet and Marchenko have passed Sproul in the call-up list because they are the most NHL ready at this point, but they definitely have not come close to passing him in what Holland, Babcock, scouts or anyone else for that matter (except you, for whatever reason..), would project them at in a few years. Sproul projects to be a top 4 defenseman (with the possibility of becoming a top pair) while everyone else projects to be a bottom pair (with the possibility of sneaking in on the second pair). There shouldn't be any debate here, and there wouldn't be if you have followed these guys as much as myself and many others on here...

So I am wrong..... Ok. Here is the link to hockeys future. They tend to agree with me. Oullett, Sproul, and Marchenko all have the same ranking: 7.0 and a grade of C. BTW what do they have listed as the organizations weakness? Goal tending depth and sizable forwards...... Seems like I have heard that somewhere.......

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings/

BTW this is not a negative. I think all 3 of those guys have top 4 potential. I am not dismissing them like you are. Sproul may have the most offensive upside of all 3, but he is also to date the worst defensively. Oullett and marchenko both play well rounded games, which is what Holland and Babcock want. In their draft years all were ranked in the same range. At least Sproul and Oullett were. Merchenko might have been even higher but had the Russian thing going against him IIRC.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Richdg

[dirtydangles 1,328]

So I am wrong..... Ok. Here is the link to hockeys future. They tend to agree with me. Oullett, Sproul, and Marchenko all have the same ranking: 7.0 and a grade of C. BTW what do they have listed as the organizations weakness? Goal tending depth and sizable forwards...... Seems like I have heard that somewhere.......

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings/

That site is really terrible and they hardly ever update any info on the players. The best way to determine the quality of prospect is the eye test or hearing it directly from the wings organization/someone reputable. This site can't properly keep track of all 30 teams' prospects - they just go off of stats and hype going into each year.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

I've seen every game that Larkin has played this season and with him expected to play one more year at Michigan...I believe Larkin will be on the Wings roster when they open the new arena

[krsmith17 7,191]

dirtydangles, despite not being as well established yet, they are still some of our top prospects. Between Sheahan, Larkin and Athanasiou, they will have no problem filling the top 2 center spots in the future. It doesn't matter how old these guys are or when they were drafted, the top prospects for any team are the ones that have the highest potential, not "biggest bust potential"... My "untouchable" list (may be different from yours) consists of 4 "can't miss" forwards (Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Pulkkinen), a defenseman (Sproul) and a goaltender (Mrazek). Again, on top of that we already have, Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar and Jurco up front, while we only have DeKeyser and Smith on the back end... That's eight potential top 6 forwards and only three top 4 defensemen...

Richdg, you sure showed me with the aid of HockeysFuture... They have absolutely no credibility. Sproul, Ouellet and Marchenko all with the exact same ranking? Okay... Even using that awful site, you're still wrong. There are three 7.0 defenseman and there are four 7.0 forwards, as well as a 7.5 and an 8.0... Therefore, using this site, we have 1.5 defense pairings and 2 full forward lines... Which has more depth, defense or forward?... Also, they have Larkin, Athanasiou, Nosek and Holmstrom, all listed as wingers when they're all centers, they still have McKee listed as a defenseman when he is a winger... Why don't they have Mrazek listed as a defenseman? The guys on that site are clueless...

PumpkinEscobar, have you seen all these live or on TV / internet? I'd love to be able to catch a few of his games...

[number9 3,297]

Of our 24 forward prospects at least half play or have played C in their careers. We are fine up the middle.

C

Larkin

Athanasiou

Nosek

Vahatalo

Ferraro

Janmark

Turgeon

Aubry

Ehn

Hudon

Kadeykin

HAMPUSSSSSSSSS MELENNNNNNNNNN

Notice that 6 of those players were obtained in last years draft (Nosek FA). The C issue has already been addressed.

I believe Nastasiuk and Campbell have played some C too, but I'm not positive.

Edited February 5, 2015 by number9

[dirtydangles 1,328]

dirtydangles, despite not being as well established yet, they are still some of our top prospects. Between Sheahan, Larkin and Athanasiou, they will have no problem filling the top 2 center spots in the future. It doesn't matter how old these guys are or when they were drafted, the top prospects for any team are the ones that have the highest potential, not "biggest bust potential"... My "untouchable" list (may be different from yours) consists of 4 "can't miss" forwards (Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Pulkkinen), a defenseman (Sproul) and a goaltender (Mrazek). Again, on top of that we already have, Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar and Jurco up front, while we only have DeKeyser and Smith on the back end... That's eight potential top 6 forwards and only three top 4 defensemen...

Yeah I still think you are reaching on the AA prediction. I don't see him becoming a top 6 NHL C. He could be a 3C or MAYBE 2C but more likely pans out as a 2/3 winger in the NHL.

I really only see Larkin and Sheahan as future top 6 C's and neither likely becomes a legit top line C like a Z or Dats. How many teams have won the cup without a premier 1C recently? None - you could argue Boston doesn't have one but they are a different beast. The only way to get a 1C is through the draft and getting lucky. I truly think we need to add one more legit C prospect to the pool to feel comfortable going forward. This is the draft to do it with how deep it is at the C position.

Either way, I don't think I will convince you and you won't change my mind - and thats okay - because at the end of the day you and I aren't the ones making the pick on draft day lol.

Of our 24 forward prospects at least half play or have played C in their careers. We are fine up the middle.

C

Larkin

Athanasiou

Nosek

Vahatalo

Ferraro

Janmark

Turgeon

Aubry

Ehn

Hudon

Kadeykin

HAMPUSSSSSSSSS MELENNNNNNNNNN

I believe Nastasiuk and Campbell have played some C too, but I'm not positive.

I don't think any of those guys except for Larkin ends up a top 6 C at the NHL level. Its an impressive list nonetheless.

[number9 3,297]

Yeah I still think you are reaching on the AA prediction. I don't see him becoming a top 6 NHL C. He could be a 3C or MAYBE 2C but more likely pans out as a 2/3 winger in the NHL.

I really only see Larkin and Sheahan as future top 6 C's and neither likely becomes a legit top line C like a Z or Dats. How many teams have won the cup without a premier 1C recently? None - you could argue Boston doesn't have one but they are a different beast. The only way to get a 1C is through the draft and getting lucky. I truly think we need to add one more legit C prospect to the pool to feel comfortable going forward. This is the draft to do it with how deep it is at the C position.

Either way, I don't think I will convince you and you won't change my mind - and thats okay - because at the end of the day you and I aren't the ones making the pick on draft day lol.

I don't think any of those guys except for Larkin ends up a top 6 C at the NHL level. Its an impressive list nonetheless.

AA is a beast dude. He's already getting way more hype than Sheahan ever did.

[number9 3,297]

Yeah I still think you are reaching on the AA prediction. I don't see him becoming a top 6 NHL C. He could be a 3C or MAYBE 2C but more likely pans out as a 2/3 winger in the NHL.

I really only see Larkin and Sheahan as future top 6 C's and neither likely becomes a legit top line C like a Z or Dats. How many teams have won the cup without a premier 1C recently? None - you could argue Boston doesn't have one but they are a different beast. The only way to get a 1C is through the draft and getting lucky. I truly think we need to add one more legit C prospect to the pool to feel comfortable going forward. This is the draft to do it with how deep it is at the C position.

Either way, I don't think I will convince you and you won't change my mind - and thats okay - because at the end of the day you and I aren't the ones making the pick on draft day lol.

I don't think any of those guys except for Larkin ends up a top 6 C at the NHL level. Its an impressive list nonetheless.

Larkin, AA, and Janmark are all doing very well and projected to be highend talents. Of course 1 or 2 might bust, but we really only need one anyway with the emergence of Sheahan.

The words also still out on at least 5 of those guys. Being that it's too early to tell what their likely projection is. We could end up with as many as 4 or 5 top 6 C hopefuls by this time next year.

Again, we really are fine up the middle. I'm hoping for some pure wingers myself. Hopefully snipers or gritty power forwards (we don't really have any of those)

[krsmith17 7,191]

As I've already stated, Athanasiou has had arguably the smoothest transition from junior to pro of any Red Wings prospect in recent memory. I rank him just as high as Mantha on our prospects list. He is THAT good. I'm not sure if you're able to catch many Griffins games, but I watch a lot and before the injury, Athanasiou was tearing up that league, as a rookie nonetheless... He's legit.

As for Larkin, he is one of the top players in college as a freshman. He is right up there with the likes of Eichel in scoring (not saying he's as good, but he is somewhat comparable), and he's only 3 months older. If Larkin were born a couple months later, he wouldn't have been draft eligible until 2015, and you can be guaranteed that he would be a top 5 pick in next years draft. This guy is the real deal...

How anyone can possibly think that we're not deep at center, is crazy. Clearly not paying attention. Defense is without a doubt our area of concern going forward...

Draft a stud defenseman in the first round Kenny, unless of course there is a forward that can't be passed over, and you think there will be a chance at a great defenseman in the second round...

[Richdg 267]

So you don't like hockeys future, fine, here is a better reference. Ken Holland. Oullett and Sproul were drafted in the same draft. Who was first? Oullett. For over a year we have been hearing-correctly that we need to add a RH shot on the BL. Ok, so what young Dman from GR came up first and has played the most this season? oullett. Now marchenko is up. With marchenko being older one could make a good arguement that he is just further along in his development. You can't do that with Oullett because theya re the same age. Yet the LHed Oullett comes up before the RHed Sproul.

As fro marchenko's rnakings coming out, yes I did remember correctly. Most draft sites did have him as a first round talent, but he was very public about only coming to NA if he was drafted by the RW's which drove his stock down. Then he had an injury/illness that bottomed out his stock.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

I've seen 4 of Larkin's games in person and the rest on TV. There's a reason why the Wings won't part with him..atleast for the names on defense that have been mentioned.

[Richdg 267]

SOW, just because the league has been dumbed down, doesn't mean that waht I said isn't true. Good-the key word #2 C's put up 60ish points per year. There were 30 C's on your list with 56 or more BTW. Go back and look over the last 25 years. nearly every great team had 2 or more very good C's. Yzerman and federov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Crosby and malkin, the Ducks went and got Kesler because they needed better, same with the Stars and Spezza. Boston with Krejic (spelling) and bergeron. Sharks with thornton and Pevalski. The list goes on and on. No every team doesn't have true #2 C's. hell some teams don't have a true #1 C on their roster.

Just because every team puts out 3 pairs of Dmen, does that mean the guys playing on their top pair are truely top 4 Dmen? No and you know better. If Kronwall, Dekeyser, and ericsson all wake up with the flue and can't play tonight, does this now mean KFQ is a top 4 Dman? No. yes he is playing the spot, but we all know he isn't that quality of player.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

As I've already stated, Athanasiou has had arguably the smoothest transition from junior to pro of any Red Wings prospect in recent memory. I rank him just as high as Mantha on our prospects list. He is THAT good. I'm not sure if you're able to catch many Griffins games, but I watch a lot and before the injury, Athanasiou was tearing up that league, as a rookie nonetheless... He's legit.

As for Larkin, he is one of the top players in college as a freshman. He is right up there with the likes of Eichel in scoring (not saying he's as good, but he is somewhat comparable), and he's only 3 months older. If Larkin were born a couple months later, he wouldn't have been draft eligible until 2015, and you can be guaranteed that he would be a top 5 pick in next years draft. This guy is the real deal...

How anyone can possibly think that we're not deep at center, is crazy. Clearly not paying attention. Defense is without a doubt our area of concern going forward...

Draft a stud defenseman in the first round Kenny, unless of course there is a forward that can't be passed over, and you think there will be a chance at a great defenseman in the second round...

Yeah I've caught quite a few Griffins games this season - even a few live. I would still be cautiously optimistic here about AA. The AHL and NHL are different beasts - if the transition was easy then Pulkkinen would be scoring 2 per night in Detroit rather than in GR. I'm just not ready to declare him the heir apparent to Z or Dats. I'd like some insurance here rather than picking a Dman that won't be in Detroit for another 3-4 years when our D will likely be filled with our own young players and FA during that time. I think by the time that D prospect gets to Detroit we won't have the same need on D we once did - or Holland is useless.

[amato 3,210]

HAMPUSSSSSSSSS MELENNNNNNNNNN

[krsmith17 7,191]

Richdg, are you serious? You actually think just because Holland and his staff picked Ouellet before Spoul in the draft 4 years ago, that they are higher on him now? Or that because he was drafted higher that he will be the better player? Everyone that follows Red Wings prospects knows that Ouellet and Marchenko are ahead of Sproul in their development, but they also know that Sproul has a much higher ceiling. The former two are two-way defenders, whereas Sproul is a pure offensive, puck moving, power-play quarterback defenseman, which as everyone knows, is a lot harder style to transition from junior to pro. Sproul is our best defense prospect by a landslide. Why are you debating that?

dirtydangles, although I do believe Pulkkinen will be a big time player in this league, it's going to take his skillset longer to adjust than a player like Athanasiou. Pulkkinen is undersized, and he needs time and space to use his number one asset; his shot. He will adjust to the speed of the NHL and he will figure things out, but there's no doubt that it's going to take a bit of time and patience... Athanasiou is big, lightning fast, has unbelievable hands, and has already adapted to the pro game. He was a top player in junior and will be a top player in the American League by this time next year, before eventually cracking the Red Wings lineup. There is absolutely nothing stopping this kid from being a top 2 center in the NHL in 4-5 years from now.

Why is it that our defense will develop as planned, but our centers may falter? It doesn't make any sense...

I'm going to ask both of you to rank our young talent? If you think any of our defense, other than DeKeyser, Smith and Sproul rank higher than Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou or Pulkkinen, you're crazy. I would trade Ouellet, Jensen or Marchenko in any trade before any of those forwards (except they don't hold near as much value)... We are extremely deep up front and down the middle in the future. Our weakness is without a doubt, on the backend... Anyway, I'm done with this. I'm clearly not going to change your minds on this and that's quite okay. We'll just have to see how Holland and our scouts approach next years draft...

Edited February 6, 2015 by krsmith17

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

SOW, just because the league has been dumbed down, doesn't mean that waht I said isn't true. Good-the key word #2 C's put up 60ish points per year. There were 30 C's on your list with 56 or more BTW. Go back and look over the last 25 years. nearly every great team had 2 or more very good C's. Yzerman and federov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Crosby and malkin, the Ducks went and got Kesler because they needed better, same with the Stars and Spezza. Boston with Krejic (spelling) and bergeron. Sharks with thornton and Pevalski. The list goes on and on. No every team doesn't have true #2 C's. hell some teams don't have a true #1 C on their roster.

Just because every team puts out 3 pairs of Dmen, does that mean the guys playing on their top pair are truely top 4 Dmen? No and you know better. If Kronwall, Dekeyser, and ericsson all wake up with the flue and can't play tonight, does this now mean KFQ is a top 4 Dman? No. yes he is playing the spot, but we all know he isn't that quality of player.

Fedorov - was pre-cap

Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Crosby/Malkin/Bergeron/Krejci - are the best forwards on their team and is not some kind of standard. It's a luxury that they happen to be natural centers.

Kesler/Spezza - only put up over 60 points as #1 centers on their previous teams.

Pavelski - doesn't even play center for the Sharks. Him and Joe play on the same line lol

Who else ya got since "the list goes on and on"? lol

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

SOW, just because the league has been dumbed down, doesn't mean that waht I said isn't true. Good-the key word #2 C's put up 60ish points per year. There were 30 C's on your list with 56 or more BTW. Go back and look over the last 25 years. nearly every great team had 2 or more very good C's. Yzerman and federov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Crosby and malkin, the Ducks went and got Kesler because they needed better, same with the Stars and Spezza. Boston with Krejic (spelling) and bergeron. Sharks with thornton and Pevalski. The list goes on and on. No every team doesn't have true #2 C's. hell some teams don't have a true #1 C on their roster.

Just because every team puts out 3 pairs of Dmen, does that mean the guys playing on their top pair are truely top 4 Dmen? No and you know better. If Kronwall, Dekeyser, and ericsson all wake up with the flue and can't play tonight, does this now mean KFQ is a top 4 Dman? No. yes he is playing the spot, but we all know he isn't that quality of player.

Kfq is a top four dman.

He is literally playing in our top four at all times, unless you consider deke-quincey our third pairing and Smith-Marchy our second.

Which no one else would agree with you.

Also, kq has been amazing playing on our second pair lately.

He's been as steady as you could ask him to be since midway through last season.

I think you may have meant top pairing d, but then that would go against your argument.