Red Wings acquire Marek Zidlicky from NJ for Cond. 2016 3rd Round Pick

[Mckinley25 677]

No. If the image of raw, unadulterated, masculinity makes you squeamish, look away.

What is your avatar?

[kickazz 5,459]

1. You point out that Smith has subpar point totals but you're somehow enamored by Marchenko's 2 points in 13 games? Which is a lower points per game average than Smith. Smith also produced 5 points in his first 8 NHL games. The point is, 8 games or 13 games, it's way too small of a sample size.

2. Marchenko isn't as good as Smith today and I doubt he will be in the future.

3. You don't replace a guy in your lineup that has a higher ceiling for a rookie, just because of his handedness.

4. Zidlicky isn't a top pairing guy anymore so he wouldn't get paired with Kronwall. Although Marchenko has looked decent in his few shifts with Kronwall, he is not in any way a top pair defenseman. Do they split up their best shut down pair just so they can get a rookie in the lineup? I doubt it. So what? We put two righties on the third pairing? Obviously not as that would defeat the purpose...

1. You basically proved your own first sentence wrong.. You compared Smith's PPG to Marchenko's and then contradicted yourself saying that Marchenko's 13 games is too small of a sample size? Btw who is enamored by that?? I think the only statements that were made were comparing Smith's PPG to current top 6 defensemen and how hes actually producing less than some of the more "defensive minded defensemens I.E Quincy and Dekeyser. So where does Marchenko come into those stats? He's only played 13 games, you can't really make a judgement on his ability to produce at an NHL level. I haven't seen anyone even post about Marchenko's production. The only thing people are speaking about is using his right hand in a strategic sense for puck possession and to avoid having a weakness in the lineup that could be exploited by the opponent I.E lack of more than one right handed Dman.

2. Apparently that's your opinion, not necessarily a fact. You're entitled to it. But I wouldn't jump the gun and say "I doubt he will be better in the future". You don't know what the future holds for either of these players. Did people think Zetterberg could be a top 10 player coming into the league at 7th round draft pick? No they didnt. 13 or so years later hes one of the best players in the world and the captain of the best franchise in the league. Same goes to Datsyuk's situation.

3. And that's where we disagree. Babcocks put in plenty of rookies for other higher paid players in the past. Look at the 2013 season. Additionally, I don't think Smith has a "higher ceiling". He's not THAT much better than Marchenko. You may not believe it but I bet in Smith's own mind he knows to up his game in order to stay in that line up. Even last game, where he played excellent, you could tell he up'd his game. These thoughts go through players heads all the time. Anyone who has played team sports at any level knows the feeling. Competition is an everyday thing in sports. Keep an open mind, I'm sure Smith is too especially when he hears Babcock and Holland praise Marchenko.

4. Just my opinion. see below

Kronwall - Marchenko

Ericsson - Zidlickey

Dekeyser - Quincey

You don't think Kronwall is good enough to make Marchenko better?

Ok lets say you don't. Then:

Kronwall - Ericsson

Dekeyser - Zidlickey

Quincey - Marchenko

Edited March 6, 2015 by kickazz

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

Awwwww s***. You've bitten off more than you can chew on this one. While your logic is solid, you argument is vulnerable in one key way. What if a bunch of people on LGW think that Brendan Smith is WAY better than he is? I mean, what if they thought that instead of a third pair defenseman with upside, he was a "dynamic two way defenseman"? What if they thought that instead of a mediocre defenseman who has underwhelmed both offensively, and defensively, they thought of him as a future cornerstone of our blueline and in some cases have even compared him favorably to Keith Yandle? Then, it absolutely WOULD be like scratching Kronwall for Marchenko wouldn't it? And that's how your argument is wrong.

Because Brendan Smith, despite his past and/or current performance, is a frickin' defensively stalwart.

I see what u did there...

Actually your refutation is flawed because you're claiming that peoples feelings (including yours) towards a player trumps my argument. People's feelings wont change my mind. Statistics will and practicality will. Quiet simply logic will.... Smith has 11 points in 57 games and is -2 and Kindl has 11 points in 33 games and is +1. Almost HALF as many games as Smith. Kyle Quincey has 13 points in 53 games; more PPG than Smith. Does this mean Quincey is superstar Keith Yandle mode and Smith is semi Keith Yandle? He^l Quincey isn't even known for offense!

I mean we can even take this to last season and compare Danny Dekeyser to Smith. Dekyser is a defensive minded defensemen yet he tallied more points in less games than your "two way playing stalwart" Smith.

You need some legitimate data to claim a hypothesis to be true. Not feelings.

Regardless with the above mentioned stats I stick to my opinion on the matter. Marchenko could very well replace one of the left handers if Babcock thinks its viable. At this point the only one I can think of is Smith as the other defenseman (except ericsson) have played pretty well, including Smith. But Kronwall wont be the one to go. Neither will Dekeyser or Quincey pairing. Obviously not Zidlicky. Maybe Ericsson? Doubt that.

You didn't see what he did there

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Mike Babcock thinks Brendan Smith is a defensive stalwart. I don't know what you guys are talking about...

[krsmith17 7,191]

How did I prove my first sentence wrong?... You started talking stats and I said that it's too small a sample size. Smith is producing less than most of our defensemen because he is getting less of an opportunity than any other defenseman. He's being forced to play a defensive game, which has been nothing short of great in the past month or so. He's been breaking up a ton of odd man rushes, blocking shots, and clearing the crease. Everyone thinks because Smith was an offensive stalwart prior to the NHL, if he doesn't put up points, he's a bust. That's ridiculous. His defense has improved immensely and the offense will come.

You think that Smith is playing above his head because he is worried about losing his spot, but you don't think Marchenko is playing above his head to get a spot? And because I don't know what the future holds, I can't make a prediction on who I think will be the better player? Okay...

I'm well aware of how the Zetterberg and Datsyuk stories go, but Marchenko isn't anything close to that. He is a bottom 4 defenseman at best.

If you think Babcock is going to keep a rookie in the lineup over a better player with more experience just because of his handedness... by all means... Let's just see how it plays out shall we?...

[UpstateNYRedWingsFan 42]

I think everyone on this board is in love with stay at home defensman who don't mess up and don't make plays either. I've read it before here where someone pointed out our young defensman who get called up look good because that's how they play.

Brendan Smith can move the puck well and has looked good when paired with Kronwall or right-handed defensman. Quincy and E just play a much safer style and the "eye test" makes them look better for that reason.

Smith is our 3rd best defensman when paired with a righty or with Kronwall. He's not good when paired with someone who can't get the puck out of the zone like Q or E.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree NY, but also, people tend to like the shiny new toys... I like Marchenko but it's only a matter of time before fans turn on him like they do with every player that goes through any struggles. Too bad it wasn't as easy for a player drop his label as it is for him to pick it up. Hell, people still hate on Ericsson and call him a pylon or turnover machine after any blunder.... all because of that horrid year he had a few years back. The same way Smith will always be labeled because of his start to last season...

[kickazz 5,459]

1. You started talking stats and I said that it's too small a sample size. Smith is producing less than most of our defensemen because he is getting less of an opportunity than any other defenseman. He's being forced to play a defensive game, which has been nothing short of great in the past month or so. He's been breaking up a ton of odd man rushes, blocking shots, and clearing the crease. Everyone thinks because Smith was an offensive stalwart prior to the NHL, if he doesn't put up points, he's a bust. That's ridiculous. His defense has improved immensely and the offense will come.

2. but you don't think Marchenko is playing above his head to get a spot?

3. If you think Babcock is going to keep a rookie in the lineup over a better player with more experience just because of his handedness... by all means... Let's just see how it plays out shall we?...

1. I don't think you read the previous posts. Your basically taking bits and pieces and not looking at the entire conversation and trying to pick a debate over something you didn't look at in perspective. I mentioned stats because Kip posed a scenario about how certain posters may consider Smith as the glorified Keith Yandle. I mentioned not only this years stats but previous years stats as well. You went on to mention that I was "enamored" by Marechenko's numbers when nobody even mentioned about his number's.. Where did you come up with that conclusion? The topic is just about whether or not he's useful as a right hander going into playoffs. Stats were mentioned in response to Smith being compared to Keith Yandle. Just in an unbiased-purely looking at numbers-matter-of-fact way. Stats aren't being mentioned to make a claim that Smith is worse than Quincey, Dekeyeser or literally anyone on the D line roster for that matter. The topic is handedness. You need to read previous posts and take things into perspective before you jump the gun bud.

2. Where are you getting this from??? Lol. Please show me a quote where I mentioned "Marchenko isn't playing above his blah blah"

3. Again read original posts. I cannot make it any more simple than that... It was a topic of discussion of WHETHER or not he will, and what his quote to the media meant. I don't pretend to know how a player will develop nor do I pretend to know how the organization will pan out. The only one with knowledge of that is the coaching staff. Until that it's all fanfic.

I can't have a discussion with someone making up conclusions on my behalf bud. You're kinda puttin some words in my mouth. Im better off talking about whether or not chris osgood is hall of fame worthy with Kip

Edited March 6, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

I see what u did there...

You didn't see what he did there

You got me. I concede.

[UpstateNYRedWingsFan 42]

Stats like this don't explain everything and Brendan Smith starts in the offensive zone 12/20 times and Quincy 11/20 but this shows to me Smith is a lot better than people realize

Edited March 7, 2015 by UpstateNYRedWingsFan

[krsmith17 7,191]

I don't think I'm the one that needs to go back and read posts... You need to go back and read Kip's posts if you believed a word he was saying about Smith. Kip is by far Smith's biggest critic and doesn't think he is anything close to Keith Yandle (rightfully so). I've read every post in this thread and I'm not really putting words in your mouth. No, you didn't say that Marchenko is playing above his head to earn a spot in the lineup, but you did say that Smith is, to try to make a point, so with that I would assume that you don't believe the same could have been said about Marchenko. It's like me saying, well I like Smith in the lineup because he's a big body. I'm not saying anything about Marchenko, but you would assume that I'm saying that Marchenko isn't big, when in reality, both players are 6'2" over 200lbs. The same way you were talking about how little Smith has produced. No, you didn't say you were impressed by Marchenko's numbers, but why bring up Smith's points if they're better than Marchenko's?

Anyway, I'm hungover as balls here today, so I may not be making a ton of sense, but my main and final point is that there is no way Babcock will sit Smith over a rookie just because of handedness.

[Buppy 1,720]

Stats like this don't explain everything and Brendan Smith starts in the offensive zone 12/20 times and Quincy 11/20 but this shows to me Smith is a lot better than people realize

Where'd these graphs come from and what exactly are they showing? They don't seem to jive really with what I've seen.

While Smith's fancy stats are a little better than Quincey's, it's not by a whole lot. Points/60 are worse, which is contrary to your graph.

Also, the fancy stats would suggest that Kindl is our best defenseman, so I think there's still some work to do on properly adjusting them for zone starts and quality of competition...

[UpstateNYRedWingsFan 42]

Where'd these graphs come from and what exactly are they showing? They don't seem to jive really with what I've seen.

While Smith's fancy stats are a little better than Quincey's, it's not by a whole lot. Points/60 are worse, which is contrary to your graph.

Also, the fancy stats would suggest that Kindl is our best defenseman, so I think there's still some work to do on properly adjusting them for zone starts and quality of competition...

As I said Quincy starts in the offensive zone only 1 time out of 20 less than Smith, so the adjustment would be very very small.

Also it is the stats since the beginning of 2012 which I did not realize until you pointed out that error in points/60.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/

Edit: 2012 not 2011

Edited March 10, 2015 by UpstateNYRedWingsFan

[rick zombo 3,739]

Anyway. Zidlicky’s been pretty good. He and Cole both.

[VM1138 1,921]

Don't he and Cole both have at least a point per game since joining the Wings? Very nice pickups, even with Zid's penchant for penalties.

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

Why do you think Babs wouldn't want Quincey with anybody other than Dekeyser?

I'd like to see

Kronwall Marchenko

Dekeyser Quincey

Ericsson Zids

I like smith but we have too many defenseman now maybe he can rotate in for Kronner and E every once in a while.. I doubt this will happen without an injury is it bad that I'm hoping for one?

Because that's our "Best" pair Kip

[Buppy 1,720]

As I said Quincy starts in the offensive zone only 1 time out of 20 less than Smith, so the adjustment would be very very small.

Also it is the stats since the beginning of 2012 which I did not realize until you pointed out that error in points/60.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/

Edit: 2012 not 2011

Ah, multiple seasons. Makes sense now.

And yeah, the zone start difference is small, but still...when the fancy stats say that Kindl is a top 4/borderline top pair while Ryan Suter is bottom pair/borderline top 4, you have to think something is off somewhere.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I'd like to see

Kronwall Marchenko

Dekeyser Quincey

Ericsson Zids

I like smith but we have too many defenseman now maybe he can rotate in for Kronner and E every once in a while.. I doubt this will happen without an injury is it bad that I'm hoping for one?

Because that's our "Best" pair Kip

A rookie playing big minutes with Kronwall against the top lines of the opposition would probably end up quite badly. I think I understand the thinking, though, since Ericsson hasn't looked up to the task either recently.

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

He's a rookie but he's also a shutdown guy so it would also allow Kronwall to join the rush more I think they would make a good pair, Ericsson has looked lazy, he just isn't cut out for top that top two role. Look at how well Maatta played for the pens I think we should give it a shot our defense hasn't been the greatest at times, and you don't have to match him up against the best players that's why we have Dekeyser and Quincey

[kipwinger 8,522]

In a week where Luke Glendening found himself on the top line, I don't think any defensive configurations should come as a surprise. Anybody who thinks "that will never happen", clearly hasn't watched Mike Babcock coach. If he has even the inkling that Marchenko will make the top four better, he'll be up there in a heartbeat.

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

I agree, Babcock said he wanted rightys now he has two good ones, if our team doesn't do well in the Philly/Pitts games expect Babcock to make changes on the back end.. I also think we'll see AA or Mantha by the end of the season or at least I want to I haven't been able to see either of these kids play.

[WingsallTheway 383]

I'd like to see

Kronwall Marchenko

Dekeyser Quincey

Ericsson Zids

I like smith but we have too many defenseman now maybe he can rotate in for Kronner and E every once in a while.. I doubt this will happen without an injury is it bad that I'm hoping for one?

Because that's our "Best" pair Kip

You want to take Kronwall out of the lineup some nights?

For Smith?

There are about 15 defenders in the NHL I'd potentially take over Kronwall, and I can tell you that none of them have ever played for Detroit

Edited March 12, 2015 by WingsallTheway

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

You want to take Kronwall out of the lineup some nights?

For Smith?

There are about 15 defenders in the NHL I'd potentially take over Kronwall, and I can tell you that none of them have ever played for Detroit

I'm pretty sure he was saying rotating smith in with Kronwall, instead of e.

At least, that's what I'm hoping he meant.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jimmyemeryhunter

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Once Marchenko is cleared he'll likely be reassigned to the Grand Rapids Griffins. The Red Wings appear set with the six defensemen they've used the past four games and there's no point having Marchenko around as a healthy scratch.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/03/red_wings_johan_franzen_has_go.html

[WingsallTheway 383]

I'm pretty sure he was saying rotating smith in with Kronwall, instead of e.

At least, that's what I'm hoping was he meant.

Yeah, I hope so haha

Im actually on board with a Kronwall - Smith pairing. Have wanted it for awhile. Ericsson should be nowhere near the top 4.

Im not exactly a Smith fan but he needs offensive situations in order to be at his best

Edited March 12, 2015 by WingsallTheway