Mrazek to start how many games?

[number9 3,297]

Ok 'yesterday' was overkill, I'm just saying I would have speed this process along more quickly, with Petr splitting time this season and not next season. (I still think they should be doing that now regardless)

I get the whole 'over-ripe' thing has worked out well for us. But I don't see the need to keep people in the minors until their very last eligible game. Petr has done all that he can in the AHL. One argument against him, which you pointed out, is his lack of NHL experience. If Mraz is going to take over, he could be getting NHL/playoff race experience. He won't get any more if he doesn't play. Getting experience now means he will be 'ready' that much sooner.

In 24 less games, Petr (sporting a solid 14-6 W-L) has only 6 less wins than Howie (sporting an average 20-20 W-L, can't get any more average than that!) I just don't get why people would prefer the latter. It doesn't make sense.

Well that's quite a bit of back peddling from your original stance.

[roboturner 562]

Well that's quite a bit of back peddling from your original stance.

I haven't back peddled on anything. All I did was clarify what I meant when someone mistook what I thought was an obvious hyperbole as literal.

Edited March 16, 2015 by roboturner

[number9 3,297]

I haven't back peddled on anything. All I did was clarify what I meant when someone mistook what I thought was an obvious hyperbole as literal.

I didn't mean to say they hate Mraz, that was Barabbas. And then when I realized that how I responded made it sound like thats what I was saying I changed it cuz I don't think people hate Petr, they're just infatuated with Howie.

Had Howie still been struggling like he did last season (and kinda is now), I would have been on board with getting rid of him yesterday. He's gotta pick it up though. Honestly, How many more 1st and 2nd round exits are we going to have to suffer through with him before a change is made?

If that's hyperbole there's really nothing obvious about it.

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

I'm not sure why hockey fans need to suffer through bad play and years of frustration all the time. I continually heard the same chatter when Nyquist and Tatar continued to be sent down to the Griffins and we had to watch Samuelsson, Cleary and Bertuzzi. At some point cut ties and play the better guy. I understand Howard starts but he's never won anything for such loyalty and Mrazek is only getting better as he plays more, the team plays solid behind him and he's 7 years younger.

[themcityblues 249]

I think the team plays more relaxed in front of Mrazek because of how he handles the puck. He handles it with more confidence than Jimmy. He is also at times more confident and poised in the net. It is also true that sometimes Mrazek will really get a bit lost coming out too far and over-challenging. But, on balance, my opinion is that Jimmy has not played great since coming back from the groin tear (which by the way was caused by one of his horrific mishandles behind the net...resulting in him scrambling awkwardly back to the net). I think overall we played some of our best hockey when Mrazek was starting...perhaps his puck handling gets the offense rolling from the defensive end. I would let Jimmy sit and gather himself for an extended period of time...and go with Mrazek. This team needs a shake up and this would do it. Let Jimmy back up for awhile.

I also would get Marchenko back in there once he is healed and perhaps sit Ericsson for awhile...he makes way too many mistakes and needs a bit of a break.

Weiss should sit as well...he is inconsequential on a team that needs difference makers.

I think players go thru funks and when they are in a funk, just sit them. Rest them for awhile. Don't grind the same guys out there who are having problems.

I think this is a great point, and that it's kind of understated. The team wins with Mrazek. He's poised, he's confident, and he's a better puck-handler. I think that does a lot for a team. Howard is quite the opposite. He looks silly often (even when putting up good numbers), he never seemed to handle the pressure of being Detroit's #1 goalie, and he's dreadfully bad at puck handling.... and the shootout.

Mrazek looks so solid and confident that I'd think he deserves some more starts to see if the train can keep-uh-rollin

[nawein 324]

This is where you completely lose me. Why would you move your starting goaltender because you think your 23-year-old back-up goalie, with 33 games of NHL experience might be ready to start? I can understand thinking Mrazek deserves to start more often, but why in the world would you move Howard now? That's just not smart asset management, in my opinion. Mrazek struggles and who do they turn to? Tom McCollum?

While I'm not advocating for trading Jimmy, I can see the logic behind wanting to trade him now. There are several reasons.

1. His value is higher now than it would be after he lost his starting job. You could get more for him. ie that puck moving defenseman or a Jordan Eberle.

2. Expansion draft. Rumor has it that Las Vegas will have a team to start the 2016 campaign. Trading Jimmy now allows us to sign a veteran guy that can play 30-40 games to a two year contract with the intention of protecting Mrazek and exposing said veteran. If we go in with two goalies that we want to protect, we will lose something that we don't want to. Whether it's a skater or one of the goalies, we'll lose something. This would allow us to protect against that.

3. It currently appears that the team plays better in front of Mrazek. His puck moving abilities change the dynamic of the breakout and helps us defend less. It's not a fluke that we score more goals in front of Mrazek. It's actually Mrazek.

[roboturner 562]

If that's hyperbole there's really nothing obvious about it.

the part about getting rid of him yesterday was. Which is what he had highlighted and what i clarified and expanded on.

[The Greek 323]

Before getting injured, Howard was playing well enough to be mentioned in vezina discussions and included in the all star game. He should get a chance to get back to that level. With that being said, with Howard's play of late, he should not be guaranteed a majority of the starts, nor should he be the guaranteed starter in the playoffs.

i think it would be interesting to only alternate goalies after losses.

Edited March 16, 2015 by The Greek

[Jesusberg 1,256]

While I'm not advocating for trading Jimmy, I can see the logic behind wanting to trade him now. There are several reasons.

1. His value is higher now than it would be after he lost his starting job. You could get more for him. ie that puck moving defenseman or a Jordan Eberle.

2. Expansion draft. Rumor has it that Las Vegas will have a team to start the 2016 campaign. Trading Jimmy now allows us to sign a veteran guy that can play 30-40 games to a two year contract with the intention of protecting Mrazek and exposing said veteran. If we go in with two goalies that we want to protect, we will lose something that we don't want to. Whether it's a skater or one of the goalies, we'll lose something. This would allow us to protect against that.

3. It currently appears that the team plays better in front of Mrazek. His puck moving abilities change the dynamic of the breakout and helps us defend less. It's not a fluke that we score more goals in front of Mrazek. It's actually Mrazek.

1. I get that, but I think his value will be similar one year from now. At the very least, they should get a full year in with Petr before even considering doing anything with Howard. I'm not sure Edmonton does an Eberle for Howard swap, straight up. One or more of our forwards would have to be included, in order to create room up front.

2. I've suggested that the Wings should grad a vet goaltender to protect Howard and Mrazek in the past. Not sure I'd trust many of the UFA goalies behind Mrazek. Niemi could work as a 1A, 1B if he leaves San Jose. Don't really trust Enroth or Lindback, and they're two of the better options out there. Conceivably, we could protect both goalies, if they were willing to play a role on the Griffins:

Either way, if the league winds up having another expansion draft, it might be smart to have a goaltender who meets the experience requirements. Not sure if they'll change, but in 2000 it was 10 games in the previous season, or 25 games in the previous two seasons. Not too many pending UFA's would qualify, though. Taking a quick look, I see Fasth and McElhinney as two goaltenders who would work.

Both guys are 32-years-old and might be willing to take on a lesser role. They also meet the experience requirements, even if they play in the AHL next year.

3. I agree. Petr helps the break-out in ways that Howard can't. He's head and shoulders above Jimmy in that regard.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Jesusberg

[miksteri 55]

The goalie that wins games should be the starter, if Howard keeps struggling why keep him between the pipes?

[roboturner 562]

The goalie that wins games should be the starter, if Howard keeps struggling why keep him between the pipes?

Exactly. I mean would people really not have a problem with Petr if he played the next 20 games and went oh lets say 4-16?

Even if you put all other things aside (scoring and defensive support), I think there he would be s*** on pretty hard if he were to put up that kind of a record.

But like it or not, that's the W-L he would have to go in order to end up with Howard's current 20-20 record.

I just don't understand why people would rather lose with Howard than win with Mrazek. It doesn't make sense.

Edited March 16, 2015 by roboturner

[number9 3,297]

the part about getting rid of him yesterday was. Which is what he had highlighted and what i clarified and expanded on.

Honestly, How many more 1st and 2nd round exits are we going to have to suffer through with him before a change is made?

This wasn't though? Seems to suggest you wanted a change sooner than today

[roboturner 562]

Honestly, How many more 1st and 2nd round exits are we going to have to suffer through with him before a change is made?

This wasn't though? Seems to suggest you wanted a change sooner than today

Which I prefaced with 'only had he still been struggling like he was all of last season'.

But hey, Congrats! You sure have cracked the case, not every word of the post was hyperbole. Well done!

[wings_fanatic 677]

Babs switched from ozzy to Howard in 2010 cuz ozzz wasn't getting it done. No reason not to switch to petr now if he's getting us wins.

[number9 3,297]

Which I prefaced with 'only had he still been struggling like he was all of last season'.

But hey, Congrats! You sure have cracked the case, not every word of the post was hyperbole. Well done!

I was being hyperbolic duh

[gcom007 1,465]

Before getting injured, Howard was playing well enough to be mentioned in vezina discussions and included in the all star game. He should get a chance to get back to that level. With that being said, with Howard's play of late, he should not be guaranteed a majority of the starts, nor should he be the guaranteed starter in the playoffs.

i think it would be interesting to only alternate goalies after losses.

That's where I'm at with it. You've got to give the guy a chance, but I'm not convinced he's 100% right now. It might just be in his mind, but that's a big part of the game, and a big part of coming back from injury. It would also explain some of the inconsistency we've seen from him. The next month is big for him, because if he doesn't get back to where he was and Mrazek keeps getting us wins (even if some are ugly), Howard is going to have a short leash or not get the nod at all come playoff time. It's not a matter of who's the better goalie to me, it's who's the healthier goalie right now, and Howard thus far just doesn't seem like he's at 100%.

[barabbas16 499]

Babs switched from ozzy to Howard in 2010 cuz ozzz wasn't getting it done. No reason not to switch to petr now if he's getting us wins.

The age difference between Osgood then and Howard now make them somewhat different situations, don't you think?

[barabbas16 499]

I'm not sure why hockey fans need to suffer through bad play and years of frustration all the time. I continually heard the same chatter when Nyquist and Tatar continued to be sent down to the Griffins and we had to watch Samuelsson, Cleary and Bertuzzi. At some point cut ties and play the better guy. I understand Howard starts but he's never won anything for such loyalty and Mrazek is only getting better as he plays more, the team plays solid behind him and he's 7 years younger.

Um... the Red Wings organization is pretty much all about loyalty... if you have a problem with loyalty, you might be happier rooting for a different team.

Also, "Play the better guy" is a hell of a lot different than "cut ties."

I really like Mrazek too and I also see him as the goaltender of the future, but I don't like the idea of handing the reigns over to him this soon. I think maybe a 60-40 split for at least next season and perhaps the following one (depending on how next season goes).... then he gets the starting job based on his performance in the NHL with a reasonable sample size.

Edited March 16, 2015 by barabbas16

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The two most popular athletes in Detroit are the Lions backup QB and Wings backup goalie.

[greenrebellion 415]

Having a 3rd defenseman when mrazek plays (given his puck handling abilities) is likely part of the reason the team plays better with him in net.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

Babs switched from ozzy to Howard in 2010 cuz ozzz wasn't getting it done. No reason not to switch to petr now if he's getting us wins.

THIS.

The age difference between Osgood then and Howard now make them somewhat different situations, don't you think?

Not really. Maybe easier for Babs to decide, but it all comes down to: It's professional sports, it's a million dollar business, it's not some social feel-good program - and that's why the best guy should play. And usually does.

Edited March 16, 2015 by The Datsyukian Deke

[nawein 324]

The two most popular athletes in Detroit are the Lions backup QB and Wings backup goalie.

Well when the starters are Matt Stafford and Jimmy Howard it's not hard to see why. Decently solid, struggle to win the big games.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Exactly. I mean would people really not have a problem with Petr if he played the next 20 games and went oh lets say 4-16?

Even if you put all other things aside (scoring and defensive support), I think there he would be s*** on pretty hard if he were to put up that kind of a record.

But like it or not, that's the W-L he would have to go in order to end up with Howard's current 20-20 record.

I just don't understand why people would rather lose with Howard than win with Mrazek. It doesn't make sense.

This phrase obviously sticks out and you must have meant it to provoke a response: "I just don't understand why people would rather lose with Howard than win with Mrazek. It doesn't make sense." Come on! You know things are not as simple as that. Mrazek will be a great goalie, but he's still getting used to the league and developing. It's not being "a Howard apologist" or Howard diehard or whatever to be reticent to put our trust in Mrazek in this year's playoffs. He's got us wins, but has also been pulled a couple of times and had a string of bad games. He hasn't been absolute lights out and that's what he would have to be to supplant an established number 1 goalie. It's definitely not "lose with Howard than win with Mrazek" in the playoffs. We really don't know how Mrazek would perform in that situation.

A more measured response to Mrazek's success is to allow him Gus's spot as backup and get him some more games this year. I don't think anyone would be against Mrazek playing the next game after a solid win. Then we'll hope Howard can get back into the form he was in earlier in the season. That would be the best situation for the team come playoff time. He was being talked about for the Vezina and had a top GAA at some point. We're not talking about Joey MacDonald here. (Sorry, Joey - was trying to think of a low level goalie) Then let's see how they play for the rest of the season. If Mrazek goes full Hammond and Howard struggles mightily, then maybe it's time for this discussion. It's not right now from what we've seen.

Edited March 16, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[barabbas16 499]

THIS.

Not really. Maybe easier for Babs to decide, but it all comes down to: It's professional sports, it's a million dollar business, it's not some social feel-good program - and that's why the best guy should play. And usually does.

OK well, I guess we just see it differently then.

I think that handing the starting job to a rookie over a 30 year-old All-Star in the prime of his career is different that handing the starting job to a rookie over a 37 year-old goaltender with injury issues in the twilight over his career.... and you think those are the same thing.

I also think that whether or not a team feels good very much comes into play when gauging said team's ability to win the Stanley Cup. And, you think that feeling good doesn't matter at all.

Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Edited March 16, 2015 by barabbas16

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

My main problem is how much more confident and relaxed the team looks with Petr, most likely due to his ability to play the puck. Something Jimmy will never be able to do at this level...