• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Datsyukian-Deke

Losing Streak affecting Babcock's Decision?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Sorry Kip but I said that he's the best and in my opinion it's the case. He's the winner and he has won on all possible levels. There will be 29 other teams interested in him this summer. He has done great job considering that our star players are aging and injured most of the time. Beside of Dats, Zetterberg and Kronwall... Who do we have? Nyquist, Tatar, She, Jurco, Pulks will need time to develop but all those players are similar... They will need to add some size and toughness and a true Defensive Defensemen... Not Errorson/Quincey type of player.

Babs has won on every level. Only guy that comes in my mind as replacement is Tippet. Blashill is a good AHL but that doesn't mean that we will win with him... Again, there is a Boucher who was highly regarded and he lost his job to a layer...

Edited by Dominator2005

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think anybody EVER said Babcock was a bad coach. It's just a straw man argument that guys like you use to defend him whenever he's criticized. Because if we don't think he's the best coach in hockey, then we must automatically think he's bad. Of course.

Guys like me?? :lol: Kind of like you claiming Babcock is regularly referred to as a genius around here?

It's not a straw man. Try checking a GDT virtually every time the team is losing. I don't know if Babcock has lost the lockerroom but he's certainly lost a chunk of the fanbase. When the team goes on a hot streak it's in spite of him. When the team goes on a losing streak, it's his fault. He's certainly not perfect but with some of the things people blame Babcock for, the underlying explanation is he must be a bad coach. Because no good, or even ok coach would do these things.

But I forgot, you only fixate on how bad Babcock is to bait me, right? So I'm sure you must not have complained about him the couple months I was gone.

I'll just keep silent again and I'm sure your fixation on Babcock will stop. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Kip but I said that he's the best and in my opinion it's the case. He's the winner and he has won on all possible levels. There will be 29 other teams interested in him this summer.

Now I know you're high on something and not to take your posts seriously.

Ask Chicago, Nashville, Anaheim, New York Rangers, Montreal, if they are interested in Babs this summer ... just to name a few.

Edited by RedWingsRox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys like me?? :lol: Kind of like you claiming Babcock is regularly referred to as a genius around here?

It's not a straw man. Try checking a GDT virtually every time the team is losing. I don't know if Babcock has lost the lockerroom but he's certainly lost a chunk of the fanbase. When the team goes on a hot streak it's in spite of him. When the team goes on a losing streak, it's his fault. He's certainly not perfect but with some of the things people blame Babcock for, the underlying explanation is he must be a bad coach. Because no good, or even ok coach would do these things.

But I forgot, you only fixate on how bad Babcock is to bait me, right? So I'm sure you must not have complained about him the couple months I was gone.

I'll just keep silent again and I'm sure your fixation on Babcock will stop. ;)

Now you're misrepresenting my argument AND attacking me personally. Good job Harold. Hard to imagine why you've been gone so long.

Neither I, nor anybody else, EVER called Babcock a bad coach. Get over it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The time for Babcock to move is here. I can see him going to WIN/CAL/EDM. Why, first closer to where he lives now. After the death of your father, you start to think about those things differently. Second, all have decent young cores to which to build and the managment in any of those places should be pretty willing to give him the player personnel power he wants. Back home in Canada without the enormous cluster that TOR would be and the build up instead of rebuild may be more attractive.

Our best option for his replacement IS Bashill. For many and all of the aforementioned reasons and he would come in with a slightly lower level of expectations as apposed to another NHL coach. He get his make it or break it chance in what may be the perfect storm.

50% of our problem IMO has been Hollands penchant to sit on his hands in making moves to get us over the top. Like the deadline moves this year but I think they may have been a year or 2 late. We need someone in that position with his good qualities but a bit of a gamblers streak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now you're misrepresenting my argument AND attacking me personally. Good job Harold. Hard to imagine why you've been gone so long.

Neither I, nor anybody else, EVER called Babcock a bad coach. Get over it.

Attacking you personally? You were the one who said you were doing it to bait me kip, not me. And I don't think I said anything that was a personal attack or out of tone with the conversations we've had in the past.

As for you referring to Babcock regularly being called a genius:

I've seen mike Babcock regularly referred to as a genius, and a hero around here. And the fact that the mere idea of replacing him is met with such objection, seems to echo that. I'm not saying g replaced him with Marc Crawford or john tortorella. But I am saying that its not unrealistic to think that blashill could do better with this team full of guys he's already won with.

As for you criticizing Babcock to bait me and your hatred of Babcock.

Presumably you haven't scrolled down to where I said of the purpose of the thread..."Actually it was just his 2008 performance. The Babcock part was just me being a smartass and making an aside".

And furthermore, at this point part of the reason I talk so much s*** about Babcock is because I know you'll write a report to defend him. Kinda like krsmith17 does with Brendan Smith.

Lighten up Harold.

No prob. Everybody knows I hate Babcock, so it's certainly a fair assumption. But I guess the give away is that, aside from the original post, I didn't say anything at all about Babcock and never once turned the discussion away from Osgood and his unreal performance.

The Babs thing, as I've said, is as much a way to entertain myself at Harold's expense as anything.

You thinking he's a bad coach (which I never actually claimed you stated, by the way). The sheer tonnage of critical posts pretty much says that you don't think he's a very good coach, but a couple quick highlights that represent the most common arguments.

I think realistically we'll see this:

Tatar-Pav-Helm

Abby-Z-Cole

Nyquist-Sheahan-Pulkkinen

Miller-Glendening-Andersson/Jurco

I'd add that this lineup is dumb, and won't do a whole lot of anything. But that's what we'll see, because Mike Babcock (for the time being) is the coach of the Red Wings.

Lineup is dumb but won't work. Doesn't seem like the move of a good coach.

Dear Mike Babcock,

Since you're a dumbass (but totally a genius too), will you please just do the first of these things while Datsyuk is out, and the second once he gets back. Mostly because we'll win more. But also because it actually maximizes our players talents in a complementary way. That's called specialization. It's been all the rage since the industrial revolution. It makes things more efficient. Clearly it's not on the curriculum for honorary PhD's from McGill.

Nyquist-Z-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Cole

Pulkkinen-Helm-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Andersson/Weiss

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abby

Tatar-Sheahan-Cole

Nyquist-Helm-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Andersson/Weiss

Anyway, thanks...youf****** schmuck.

Kip.

p.s. If something works 1 time our of 4, it's not a success...even if it's your idea. So just stop it already.

I also know you've called Babcock a good coach several times in the past. I guess I just don't understand how a good coach does the obviously dumb things you criticize him for. It seems like only a bad coach would make such obvious mistakes.

The funny thing is, I'm not even claiming that Babcock is the best coach in the league. I think he's absolutely among the best though.

You seem to feel the need to criticize him because you think he's overrated here. I typically post to defend some of his moves because I think he's unjustly criticized by some people here. The motives are basically the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attacking you personally? You were the one who said you were doing it to bait me kip, not me. And I don't think I said anything that was a personal attack or out of tone with the conversations we've had in the past.

As for you referring to Babcock regularly being called a genius:

As for you criticizing Babcock to bait me and your hatred of Babcock.

You thinking he's a bad coach (which I never actually claimed you stated, by the way). The sheer tonnage of critical posts pretty much says that you don't think he's a very good coach, but a couple quick highlights that represent the most common arguments.

Lineup is dumb but won't work. Doesn't seem like the move of a good coach.

I also know you've called Babcock a good coach several times in the past. I guess I just don't understand how a good coach does the obviously dumb things you criticize him for. It seems like only a bad coach would make such obvious mistakes.

The funny thing is, I'm not even claiming that Babcock is the best coach in the league. I think he's absolutely among the best though.

You seem to feel the need to criticize him because you think he's overrated here. I typically post to defend some of his moves because I think he's unjustly criticized by some people here. The motives are basically the same.

So, despite the fact that I say he's good. You keep telling me that I really think he's bad. Right.

Because clearly it's impossible to be critical of someone AND think that overall they're good at their job.

For the millionth time. Here are my thoughts on Babcock.

1. He's not the best coach in the NHL. He's top five.

2. He's not the best coach for our team.

From now on, when I voice those opinions, and you put words in my mouth to the affect of "Babcock sucks", I'll report your posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, despite the fact that I say he's good. You keep telling me that I really think he's bad. Right.

Because clearly it's impossible to be critical of someone AND think that overall they're good at their job.

For the millionth time. Here are my thoughts on Babcock.

1. He's not the best coach in the NHL. He's top five.

2. He's not the best coach for our team.

From now on, when I voice those opinions, and you put words in my mouth to the affect of "Babcock sucks", I'll report your posts.

Could you please quote where I claimed you said Babcock sucks, so I can be sure to avoid it in the future?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "only one Cup" argument is pretty hilarious. Only one?? What a loser! Then there's the small detail of getting two different teams to game 7 of the Cup finals.

If someone were to rate Quenneville's 11-year career in 2008, they likely wouldn't consider him among the best in the league. So did he suddenly become a great coach in 2009? Same goes for Sutter.

It takes the right coach coming to the right team at the right time. Babcock is absolutely among the best in the league. Sutter, Quenneville, Trotz, maybe Tippet also belong in that conversation. You could probably make a case for Alain Vigneault since he got his team to the finals twice, though I can't stand him. I liked Bylsma but then that team became such a defensive trainwreck I wondered what was going on there.

There's really no way to compare which coach is absolutely better given all the variables involved. I can understand thinking it's time for Babs to move on because sometimes you need fresh blood. But thinking he's a bad coach is just silly.

Words to the affect of "Babcock sucks"? How about right here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not saying Babs sucks, although I do question his line combos, but if the Wings end up dropping out of the playoffs this season, he has to move on, period. Cannot get rid of the entire team (although I can name about 5 we could do without!) so it would have to be the coach.

If by a miracle, the Wings win out or go 2-1 to make the playoffs, I wouldn't care either way if he stayed or left. But, for sure, if we miss, see ya Babs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not saying Babs sucks, although I do question his line combos, but if the Wings end up dropping out of the playoffs this season, he has to move on, period. Cannot get rid of the entire team (although I can name about 5 we could do without!) so it would have to be the coach.

If by a miracle, the Wings win out or go 2-1 to make the playoffs, I wouldn't care either way if he stayed or left. But, for sure, if we miss, see ya Babs!

Yeah and then hire a coach who might work out or won't. If this team misses it's not the fault of Babcock, he isn't responsible for building the team, guy can only work with what Holland is giving him.

But I don't think he will stay through a rebuild so it's a mood point anyways. If the streak ends trade guys like Kronwall for picks and try to get Mathews next year to kick start the rebuild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah and then hire a coach who might work out or won't. If this team misses it's not the fault of Babcock, he isn't responsible for building the team, guy can only work with what Holland is giving him. But I don't think he will stay through a rebuild so it's a mood point anyways. If the streak ends trade guys like Kronwall for picks and try to get Mathews next year to kick start the rebuild.

This is the best roster the Wings have had since 2009 by far. Babcock certainly bears some responsibility for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the best roster the Wings have had since 2009 by far. Babcock certainly bears some responsibility for this.

I've looked hard for that quote but fail to find it. Tried TSN and nhl.com but no luck a link would be nice.

Personally I don't think so I mean till 12 we've still had Lids, Holmer and a prime Z

Edited by frankgrimes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 mins each for haroldsnepsts and kipwinger.

There are 2 illogical arguments used in this thread. First, coach is given crappy roster and can't do any better. A good coach takes what he is given and gets more out of them. That's the definition of a GOOD coach. An average coach get s what an average team puts out. A bad coach gets less output than what the roster should produce. Right now if you ask me for my personal opinion which you all care about I'm sure, our roster should be performing better than scraping by to get in. We should be 3rd or 4th in the East. Therefore, Babs is an average to good coach this year. Last year, he was a great coach.

Second is the opposite. A team is stacked by a good GM and any schmoe should be able to get them to the SCF. That is obviously another fallacy. I don't need to give the many examples of bad coaches who fail miserably with a good roster. So don't discount Quennville or Sutter because you think they got stacked teams into the conversation of great or even 'best' coach discussion, both managing to win 2 over the last 5 years. Even Babs didn't manage to win 2 SC ...ever.

Only other thing I would add is a coach's long term performance record because that evens out the year to year roster fluctuations. On this criteria, you have to put Babs in the conversation of the bests .... but he is not a unanimous winner by a country mile as some seem to suggest. He should be considered but I think there are easily 2 or 3 other active coaches that deserve consideration.

Edited by RedWingsRox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you

They (the team's veterans) have been here through the good times and the slower times and now they see our team on the climb again," Babcock said. "This is the best team we've had here since '09, not necessarily point-wise, but direction-wise.
I'm wondering if he still thinks so. The defense isn't even in the same ballpark. Godström and Rafalski are better than every defender on this team, a prime Z plus younger Pasha aren't replaceable either.As far as Sutter and Quenville they are excellent coaches for sure but like I've said Tippet and Trotz are really underrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you include the full quote...

"They (the team's veterans) have been here through the good times and the slower times and now they see our team on the climb again," Babcock said. "This is the best team we've had here since '09, not necessarily point-wise, but direction-wise. We have more players that are hungry and going in the right direction than we have in a long time."

It's quite obvious he's talking about the direction of the team.

He CLEARLY makes that distinction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you include the full quote...

It's quite obvious he's talking about the direction of the team.

He CLEARLY makes that distinction.

Well, to be fair, about ten days earlier he said...

"We have more players than we've had probably since '09 that can score," Babcock said. "It didn't look like it early, but it does now."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/11/theres_no_shortage_of_power_in.html.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to be fair, about ten days earlier he said...

"We have more players than we've had probably since '09 that can score," Babcock said. "It didn't look like it early, but it does now."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/11/theres_no_shortage_of_power_in.html.

That's entirely true though is it not?

That's not the same as "This is the best team since '09"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's entirely true though is it not?

That's not the same as "This is the best team since '09"

Understood. But taken together, the two comments seem to suggest that the coach finds some (key) things better than the teams he's coached since 2009. Which in turn seems to (partially) invalidate the claims (made by some) that there's something particularly bad about the roster Holland put together.

But that shouldn't come as a surprise right? I mean, you've correctly pointed out the that offense is objectively better. We've all heard the praised heaped on our defense for it's shot suppression ability. Our point production from the back end is slightly above average, even amongst playoff bound teams. We're also younger and faster too (objectively).

Goaltending is the only way in which this team is probably not better than the several rosters previous, and even that wasn't an issue for about half the year.

Unfortunately, insane goaltending is a very critical part of Babs' game plan. So the fact that we're weaker in net is amplified by quite a bit lately.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this