Knuckles vs Numbers - The death of the enforcer

[Nightfall 871]

A great video on how the stats in the game are killing the role of the enforcer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jygko4bXH0I

Edited April 23, 2015 by Nightfall

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

Dang, you beat me to it. By the way, during the time McGrattan spoke I saw no rats in my apartment. Coincidence ? I think not.

All humor aside, it must be pretty hard for those guys. From one day on the other your no longer needed. But if you watch clips like the the Carcillo clip from yesterday, you remember it's a good thing that enforcers are no longer used. In the end even for the enforcers themselves.

[rick zombo 3,739]

But they still all have hot WAGs. And when it come to hockey, that's all that matters. Ammirite?

(a bit of an inside joke)

Edited April 23, 2015 by rick zombo

[Rivalred 630]

There needs to be a hybrid, a player who can score, hit, fight, and enforce

[Nightfall 871]

There needs to be a hybrid, a player who can score, hit, fight, and enforce

There are players like this in the NHL, but they aren't 50 goal scorers. Milan Lucic is a good example of a player who can do all those things. In fantasy hockey, I would call them stat stuffers. Lucic can score 20+ goals, 30+ assists, and get around 100 penalty minutes. Then you have Scott Hartnall from Columbus who can score and fight as well.

[amato 3,210]

There needs to be a hybrid, a player who can score, hit, fight, and enforce

So like, another gordie howe?

[number9 3,297]

So like, another gordie howe?

WHY ARENT THEY ALL GORDIE HOWES???

[UpstateNYRedWingsFan 42]

There needs to be a hybrid, a player who can score, hit, fight, and enforce

Abdelkader doesn't "fight" much, but he is known around the leage as an enforcer. Now that he is scoring he fills that role pretty well.

[GoWings! 179]

Or another Brendan Shanahan.

[AtlantaHotWings 983]

Best definition Mr Bob Probert....may he rest in peace

His 87-88 season 29 goals, 33 assists and 398 PIM!!

[Guest Playmaker]

Probert scored well for the first half of that season. Then came the all star game and falling off the wagon and it went all down hill from there. He wasn't a consistent goal scorer.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

There are players like this in the NHL, but they aren't 50 goal scorers. Milan Lucic is a good example of a player who can do all those things. In fantasy hockey, I would call them stat stuffers. Lucic can score 20+ goals, 30+ assists, and get around 100 penalty minutes. Then you have Scott Hartnall from Columbus who can score and fight as well.

I feel dirty everytime I have to draft that piece of s*** in fantasy. Cant stand him but the multiple stat categories he can fill are necessary to winning.

Hes my odds on favorite to be the next player to come out as having a major drug habit. You look at his facial expressions while playing and only thing I can think of is that it says coke fiend rage.

Edited April 23, 2015 by GoalieManPat

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Abdelkader doesn't "fight" much, but he is known around the leage as an enforcer. Now that he is scoring he fills that role pretty well.

LOL. Around which league is he known as an enforcer? He's one of the worst hockey fighters I've ever seen.

Best definition Mr Bob Probert....may he rest in peace

His 87-88 season 29 goals, 33 assists and 398 PIM!!

Incredible season. To spend that much time in the box and still score so many points.

BTW, I'm more partial to Link Gaetz's 1992 season. 48GP, 326 PIM.

Edited April 23, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[frankgrimes 1,836]

"advanced guys are kicking the enforcers ass right now" yeah because important stuff like intangibles, chemistry and grit can be measured so well ?! What a bunch of arrogant, self entitled excel geniuses. Oc course the only time ESPN is talking about hockey, is to push their anti-fighting stance.

Guess what, Orr may not be the most skilled player ever but tha t guy is giving his all every time he is on the ice, wheter it's fightning, body checking or creating energy to fire his team up. Oh yeah if you don't have the puck the other team is going to have the puck ?! Really, that's advanced "metrics" ? God forbid someone would check the guy who has the puck into the boards and THEN get the puck plus make the team aware of him being on the ice but no that can't be measured so it's obviously not good.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the mathematical talent those advanced stat guys are having but when it comes down to actually hockey knowledge and understanding what's really important they're trapped into excel sheets and calculators...if only they would watch the games. Brian Burke said it best: show the stat that makes our team a winner and gives us the edge right now, we're paying cash show it to me....sursprisingly nobody did because hockey is a fast paced, momentum shifting, physical and hard to measure game. Sadly it will take a bit longer till the advanced geniuses are getting that.

1 hardworking Orr, McGrattn, Thornton... > advanced mathematics geniuses

McGrattan *laughs* I think it's a joke and I'll leave it at that - doesn't need much words to sum it up :-)

Orr "you can't measure character and the confidence an enforcer is bringing to his team"

How about showing those guys some much deserved respect instead of sitting infront of your MBP otherwise (to quote Nichelson) how about you go on the ice with your laptop and do THEIR job?! I'm sure Prust, McLaren, Bourdelaux will be wowed by all that numbers...BOOM first punch knockout

Edited April 23, 2015 by frankgrimes

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

I haven't read the thread, but I'm willing to bet someone mentioned "intangibles".

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Guys who work hard but are bad at hockey don't help teams. Goons were needed at one point to counter other goons. Not many teams have them now, so they're not needed. I'd much rather have a guy who can skate and hit than a guy who can just punch and can't play more than 4 or 5 minutes a night.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Guys who work hard but are bad at hockey don't help teams. Goons were needed at one point to counter other goons. Not many teams have them now, so they're not needed. I'd much rather have a guy who can skate and hit than a guy who can just punch and can't play more than 4 or 5 minutes a night.

Sure why not, just let other guys punch our stars and smaller guys in the head and then run to the league crying for a suspension. Instead of handling that stuff like men and call the on ice police and fire the team up.

Edited April 23, 2015 by frankgrimes

[Mckinley25 677]

Sure why not, just let other guys punch our stars and smaller guys in the head and then run to the league crying for a suspension. Instead of handling that stuff like men and call the on ice police and fire the team up.

Actually, that would be handling it like children, who don't know any better.

[Nightfall 871]

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

First off, I have been a fan of hockey only since 1995 when I first saw the sport. I grew up in a area that didn't have hockey so I really didn't even see the sport. It wasn't until I went to college when I saw my team play and absolutely loved the sport. The pro game was just as much fun as the college game was. Fighting was a cool aspect, but I hated the clutch and grab era of hockey and the college sport. When the NHL changed to take that kind of buffoonary out of hockey, I was happy. Same goes for the college game as well.

Now, I really did enjoy the enforcer era. Back then, the enforcers were there to protect the star players. Today, that is just not needed anymore. If you look at skilled clubs like the Kings or the Blackhawks, neither of them have enforcers that are playing on a regular basis. The Hawks signed Carcillo, and he has seen only limited action with the club. Kyle Clifford plays for the Kings and he has 87 PIMs which leads the team over 80 games.

The game has changed, and I believe it is for the better. The fans as a whole agree as well. Ticket sales are up. Profits are up. The NHL is going to expand again in a few years. The days of the enforcer are over for the most part. The days of having Sherrif Parker from the Avs on the roster are gone. Why have someone out there who just wants to beat the crap out of someone when you can have someone like Brian Bickell who is at least an offensive threat while having the ability to hold his own in an altercation?

I really feel for all the enforcers out there, but its just the way it goes. When the game changes, either you change with it or you phase out. All the players who could only defend by grabbing and clutching onto someone either dropped out of the league or adjusted their game. Same goes for the players who could really only fight.

Scott Parker was drafted in the 1st round of the NHL Entry Draft back in 1998. He really knew how to fight and only had one strong season in the minors. He was drafted for his toughness, not his skill. After the NHL killed the clutch and grabbing, Parker saw his role reduced and eventually he was shipped out of town. The Avs did bring him back in 08, but he couldn't adjust to anything other than fighting. He dropped out of the league.

Now, if you look at junior hockey, players aren't being drafted for their ability to fight anymore. Its all about the stats. Puck possession, goals, assists, points, plus/minus, etc. IMHO, that is where the game of hockey should be.

[lomekian 201]

Without wishing to piss on Mr Grimes parade, there is a massive difference between talented enforcers and goons, and the guys featured in this video (in which Biznasty comes across well as does orr to a degree) just don't the talent to stick in the faster paced NHL of today. To make a roster these days with regularity as a fighter/tough guy you've either got to have some offensive impact (see Reeves this year/Tootoo/Chris Neil/Carcillo/Gregory Campbell/Prust/Gaustad/Dorsett) or be defensively responsible (Campbell/Prust/Gaustad/ even John Scott has tightened up in this area, which is why he still has a job).

This is not to undervalue toughness or fighting. There is a reason the likes of Lucic/Prust and others earn more cheese than their points totals would support. A clean living Probert or even a Prust would be fantastic for this team, but these guys don't go on trees, and the overall level of skill, tactical awareness and speed has changed so much in the NHL in the last 15 years. if our own Mike Mckee could put up any points he'd be fast-tracked to be given a chance, as he's a physical beast, skates well, dominates fights and is defensively sound at his level. But he has no offence. Looking further back, Jiri Fisher would have been absolute money for this roster had things turned out differently.

But I do agree that the demise of professional goons might encourage a needed change to the instigator rule, as when there are no more guys who have to fight to justify their ice time, fighting can be used as a method of policing again. Hell even the Hanson/Carlson brothers in 'Slapshot' put up points both fictionally and in their professional careers.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Without wishing to piss on Mr Grimes parade, there is a massive difference between talented enforcers and goons, and the guys featured in this video (in which Biznasty comes across well as does orr to a degree) just don't the talent to stick in the faster paced NHL of today. To make a roster these days with regularity as a fighter/tough guy you've either got to have some offensive impact (see Reeves this year/Tootoo/Chris Neil/Carcillo/Gregory Campbell/Prust/Gaustad/Dorsett) or be defensively responsible (Campbell/Prust/Gaustad/ even John Scott has tightened up in this area, which is why he still has a job).

This is not to undervalue toughness or fighting. There is a reason the likes of Lucic/Prust and others earn more cheese than their points totals would support. A clean living Probert or even a Prust would be fantastic for this team, but these guys don't go on trees, and the overall level of skill, tactical awareness and speed has changed so much in the NHL in the last 15 years. if our own Mike Mckee could put up any points he'd be fast-tracked to be given a chance, as he's a physical beast, skates well, dominates fights and is defensively sound at his level. But he has no offence. Looking further back, Jiri Fisher would have been absolute money for this roster had things turned out differently.

But I do agree that the demise of professional goons might encourage a needed change to the instigator rule, as when there are no more guys who have to fight to justify their ice time, fighting can be used as a method of policing again. Hell even the Hanson/Carlson brothers in 'Slapshot' put up points both fictionally and in their professional careers.

What pisses me of is:

I respect the talent, gifts the advanced guys are having when it comes to math and excel stat sheet BUT they just don't take everything into account. If they did they would know there's a differense between the arithmetical midpoint and the meridian, so when they are saying things like:,, "The stats show that enforcers don't possess the puck, don't score...." => they are measuring the false stat and the arithmetical midpoint does always have some outliers so they just go ahead and use the same stats for all guys instead of looking at the aforementioned outliers and the different types of players.

Saying an enforcer doesn't have the puck enough is like saying well a goalie doesn't have enough hits per game.

This isn't even the worst part about the advanced guys, the worst part is how cocky, self entitled and incomplete their "stats" are. Wheter they like it or not but intangibles, chemistry, heart, grit...are all part of hockey but they are never mentioned or talked about, because these guys don't know anything outside of their excel spreadsheet and calculator numbers. I have absolutely no problem if they would be happy with their findings and use their talent to keep it going, but acting like they are above everyone else and the eyetest and the game needs to change because the "numbers" are saying so is the wrong solution.

I'm sure if I'm asking McIndoe what intangibles are...guy would be looking at his mbp won't find the stat for it and tell this isn't a "hockey stat" and these are the guys we would should take seriously ? I don't think so. Are they useless ? No they have their place and their god given math talents but hockey isn't the place for advanced metrics because like I said it's too fast paced, there are intangibles involved and momentum shifts very often unlike in Baseball etc.Also I think it's really funny how hockey is only mentioned a few times and when it is it's always the fightning, numbers debate not actual stuff like the playoffs, lockouts or anything else go figure..

Edited April 23, 2015 by frankgrimes

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Intangibles and heart =/= goon. Give me a couple guys like McCarty, Lapointe, etc who can actually play the game and will fight and I'll be happy. I have no use for a guy like Orr who can't take a regular shift.

Edited April 24, 2015 by DickieDunn

[hockeysattva 8]

"advanced guys are kicking the enforcers ass right now" yeah because important stuff like intangibles, chemistry and grit can be measured so well ?! What a bunch of arrogant, self entitled excel geniuses. Oc course the only time ESPN is talking about hockey, is to push their anti-fighting stance.

Guess what, Orr may not be the most skilled player ever but tha t guy is giving his all every time he is on the ice, wheter it's fightning, body checking or creating energy to fire his team up. Oh yeah if you don't have the puck the other team is going to have the puck ?! Really, that's advanced "metrics" ? God forbid someone would check the guy who has the puck into the boards and THEN get the puck plus make the team aware of him being on the ice but no that can't be measured so it's obviously not good.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the mathematical talent those advanced stat guys are having but when it comes down to actually hockey knowledge and understanding what's really important they're trapped into excel sheets and calculators...if only they would watch the games. Brian Burke said it best: show the stat that makes our team a winner and gives us the edge right now, we're paying cash show it to me....sursprisingly nobody did because hockey is a fast paced, momentum shifting, physical and hard to measure game. Sadly it will take a bit longer till the advanced geniuses are getting that.

1 hardworking Orr, McGrattn, Thornton... > advanced mathematics geniuses

McGrattan *laughs* I think it's a joke and I'll leave it at that - doesn't need much words to sum it up :-)

Orr "you can't measure character and the confidence an enforcer is bringing to his team"

How about showing those guys some much deserved respect instead of sitting infront of your MBP otherwise (to quote Nichelson) how about you go on the ice with your laptop and do THEIR job?! I'm sure Prust, McLaren, Bourdelaux will be wowed by all that numbers...BOOM first punch knockout

Statistics are exactly what they are, they provide a compelling argument, and if you don't like it you should come up with a better explanation, what you've done is make an ad hominem attack.

Doesn't make you look real good.

Now, I'd like to see the stats they are using . I will bet that the statistics can prove some of the intangibles. Like looking at the success of shifts after winning fights, etc. I bet there is proof to some of the "momentum."

[number9 3,297]

What pisses me of is:

I respect the talent, gifts the advanced guys are having when it comes to math and excel stat sheet BUT they just don't take everything into account. If they did they would know there's a differense between the arithmetical midpoint and the meridian, so when they are saying things like:,, "The stats show that enforcers don't possess the puck, don't score...." => they are measuring the false stat and the arithmetical midpoint does always have some outliers so they just go ahead and use the same stats for all guys instead of looking at the aforementioned outliers and the different types of players.

Saying an enforcer doesn't have the puck enough is like saying well a goalie doesn't have enough hits per game.

This isn't even the worst part about the advanced guys, the worst part is how cocky, self entitled and incomplete their "stats" are. Wheter they like it or not but intangibles, chemistry, heart, grit...are all part of hockey but they are never mentioned or talked about, because these guys don't know anything outside of their excel spreadsheet and calculator numbers. I have absolutely no problem if they would be happy with their findings and use their talent to keep it going, but acting like they are above everyone else and the eyetest and the game needs to change because the "numbers" are saying so is the wrong solution.

I'm sure if I'm asking McIndoe what intangibles are...guy would be looking at his mbp won't find the stat for it and tell this isn't a "hockey stat" and these are the guys we would should take seriously ? I don't think so. Are they useless ? No they have their place and their god given math talents but hockey isn't the place for advanced metrics because like I said it's too fast paced, there are intangibles involved and momentum shifts very often unlike in Baseball etc.Also I think it's really funny how hockey is only mentioned a few times and when it is it's always the fightning, numbers debate not actual stuff like the playoffs, lockouts or anything else go figure..

I think these highlighted quotes speak for themselves. Your argument is beyond laughable, as always.

[kliq 3,755]

Sad to see this, these guys really do believe what they are saying, regardless of how many facts are thrown their way. McGratton is probably the best example of this, he really does think this is just a faze.

Too bad these guys weren't younger, I would suggest they go into MMA.