At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Do you remember the awful Adam Oates trade? Still losing sleep over that one. And don't get me started on Adam Graves! Sheesh!

/sarc

Those were bad moves but even frustration has a shelf life.

Man that Oates trade was friggin brutal. The Graves one wasn't much better.

The Wings need to do some serious considering before they ever trade an Adam again.

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

even frustration has a shelf life.

And then, you remember the 2009 SCFs...

[Guest Playmaker]

I think it's pretty clear that Holland had no idea that Rafalski was retiring. While everyone looks back now and thinks it was highly obvious that Lidstrom was retiring, he conceivably could have played another 3 or 4 years. Not true to say he did nothing to plan for Stuart's departure. He acquired Quincey in anticipation. Say what you will about him, but at the time, he had put together some good years with the Kings and Avs and Holland had been criticized for letting him walk.

Yeah, he could have had a Plan B if the Suter thing didn't work out, but I think he and Parise kind of threw a last minute monkey wrench into the process by selling themselves as a pair. He also signed DeKeyser, who was coveted by Yzerman and every other NHL team.

[marcaractac 3,963]

I think he deserves blame for consistently fielding a small soft team. It's not the brand of hockey I want to see and we see all too often how easily they're pushed around in the playoffs

He has been drafting bigger players for a while now. The team won't get bigger over night, but it is going in that direction.

[BuckeyeWingsfan80 209]

Holland has deserved the blame since the end of the 2009 SCF when it was clear the roster was aging....

He needs to go. Now.

Babcock as well.

IT's time for a change.

[evilmrt 636]

Pretty sick of the endless KH apologists on this board. I guess they like 1st round exits.

[CrimsonFlame 424]

How many millions of dollars do we have sitting on the bench right now?

That's exactly how much blame Holland deserves.

[Nightfall 871]

Pretty sick of the endless KH apologists on this board. I guess they like 1st round exits.

The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

The past was a long time ago. Let it go.

[kliq 3,755]

The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

People don't understand/accept that we are going through a re-build. Pretty much every elite team in today's NHL was horrible at a point. In our case, horrible is losing in the first round of the playoffs. While it completely sucks and its frustrating to see us lose, you have to see the big picture.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Not sure I trust anyone else though. HAS to be someone within the organization because otherwise we get somebody just trading away Tatars and Nyquists and gutting the concept of the Red Wings Way that is passed down. Too bad Nill and Yzerman are gone just as Holland really needs to go and we have nobody to step in from within the organization.

[Liquidsnake 12]

Lidstrom was the greatest defenseman of the modern era, you cant just replace him. Teams aren't trading away norris caliber d-men, the only real option of a "replacement" in free agency was Suter. Holland did make him one hell of an offer (one that would probably have bit him in the ass down the road) but Suter decided to play on a team with his friend that was close to home. You cant put this on Holland.

As far as Weber goes, sure I would love to have him on this team, but that was never going to happen.

And for the record, reports show that Holland did try to go after Weber.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.html

No you can't just replace Lidstrom, but you can have a plan in place. Try and get a few guys to improve your top 6...not just Quincey. There was not a whole lot done here. Trades can be explored. Not asking for norris-calibre defenceman, but some solid reliable players. Why not Wideman or Boychuk (who has been great since being traded). Why not go after Keith Yandle, Tyler Myers?...Weber/Doughty/Subban are obviously not realistic, but there are other good D-men who have been available.

Dekeyser was a great signing and he's going to be a top 2 D man for us, but at least some of that was to play for his hometown team.

Kronner has been stellar for along time, but he's on the downside of his career now as well. TIme to again start looking for some D.

Upfront, i can't blame Holland. He's been trying and drafting well. Tatar and Nyqvist have bags of ability, and lots of potential, though they both need to improve their playoff performances.

Glendening is a stroke of genius, and going to be a key part of this team.

Very high hopes for Mantha, I hope this kid comes through.

What the hell happened to Jurco. Id consider putting him a package deal.

Howard can be a marketable asset this summer, but if we're going to trade him, lets get a good return.

[evilmrt 636]

The feeling is mutual with the KH attackers. I guess they don't like multiple cup winners.

ONE cup in the salary cap era. 3 first round exits in the last 4 seasons.

By the way, go take a look at that 07/08 roster one more time and compare it to what KH has put together now.

[number9 3,297]

The past was a long time ago. Let it go.

The past 6 years are in the past. Let it go.

[sum1 27]

the Wings at least make the post season, and have been for many years.

So what, if we made the playoffs for 24 consecutive seasons (you don't get a trophy for it). Its not about making it to the playoffs, it's what you do in the playoffs that matters.

[wings7 62]

What are you trying to start?

What should Holland be blamed for exactly?

The embarrassment of prospects the Wings have stock-piled despite a top 10 pick in 24 years?

But at least we made the playoffs with those kids right?

I love first round exits!!!

[dirtydangles 1,328]

No you can't just replace Lidstrom, but you can have a plan in place. Try and get a few guys to improve your top 6...not just Quincey. There was not a whole lot done here. Trades can be explored. Not asking for norris-calibre defenceman, but some solid reliable players. Why not Wideman or Boychuk (who has been great since being traded). Why not go after Keith Yandle, Tyler Myers?...Weber/Doughty/Subban are obviously not realistic, but there are other good D-men who have been available.

Dekeyser was a great signing and he's going to be a top 2 D man for us, but at least some of that was to play for his hometown team. Fell into our lap.

Kronner has been stellar for along time, but he's on the downside of his career now as well. TIme to again start looking for some D.

Upfront, i can't blame Holland. He's been trying and drafting well. Tatar and Nyqvist have bags of ability, and lots of potential, though they both need to improve their playoff performances.

Glendening is a stroke of genius, and going to be a key part of this team. More credit should go to Babcock picking him to play than holland being a genius.

Very high hopes for Mantha, I hope this kid comes through.

What the hell happened to Jurco. Id consider putting him a package deal.

Howard can be a marketable asset this summer, but if we're going to trade him, lets get a good return.

[wings7 62]

3 out of the last 4 seasons have ended in the first round.

Holland is the person who puts these teams together.

Does he deserve no blame?

Or does he only get recognition when things go well?

[Mckinley25 677]

The only other option is to tank. We haven't had a top ten pick since Marty LaPointe! What was that? 1990? How many cup winners since 2008 can say that?

Actually I'm serious, have any other teams won recently without a high draft pick leading their team? I honestly have no idea.

I just don't know what else could've made this team better without getting better picks.

You either let the cap era system make you rebuild, or you fight it and retool like Holland has.

[wings7 62]

The only other option is to tank. We haven't had a top ten pick since Marty LaPointe! What was that? 1990? How many cup winners since 2008 can say that?

Actually I'm serious, have any other teams won recently without a high draft pick leading their team? I honestly have no idea.

I just don't know what else could've made this team better without getting better picks.

Hmm I'd like to look that up but you might be right.

I think we have failed miserably at free agency though, too.

So it's not just low picks. Though I see your point.

[Mckinley25 677]

Hmm I'd like to look that up but you might be right.

I think we have failed miserably at free agency though, too.

So it's not just low picks. Though I see your point.

Free agency has been a completely different game since the cap as well, the contracts are longer so there's less options during the off season, and more competition for players. We don't have young superstars to lure in free agents, there's lots of other exciting teams to choose from.

I don't know that I can say with certainty that Holland is the best GM, but I think he's done very well considering the circumstances.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Free agency has been a completely different game since the cap as well, the contracts are longer so there's less options during the off season, and more competition for players. We don't have young superstars to lure in free agents, there's lots of other exciting teams to choose from.

I don't know that I can say with certainty that Holland is the best GM, but I think he's done very well considering the circumstances.

Some of those "circumstances" were his fault. Keeping Cleary, Sammy and Bertuzzi around for too long. Trading a first rounder for Quincey. Spending too many trade deadlines on the phone ordering pizza instead of doing his job.

His defenders make it sound like he's a victim of bad luck or something. He's made his own troubles the last few years. Yeah, there were some bad breaks in there but he's not absolved of guilt.

Edited April 30, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[gcom007 1,465]

Free agency has been a completely different game since the cap as well, the contracts are longer so there's less options during the off season, and more competition for players. We don't have young superstars to lure in free agents, there's lots of other exciting teams to choose from.

I don't know that I can say with certainty that Holland is the best GM, but I think he's done very well considering the circumstances.

What's most unfortunate about Holland is that he squandered his opportunity to lure in talent with relatively young superstars. He should've begun retooling when we were at the top of our game in 2009-2010. He had opportunities, and a much more attractive roster to lure guys in with. It's hard to blame him for the last few years struggles when you look just at those years, but he could've set himself up with a much more favorable hand if he'd been more aggressive five years ago. The writing was on the wall with the defense then, but nothing was done.

Everything that's happened since is mostly a result of a couple of years of getting caught really flat-footed.

[Mckinley25 677]

What's most unfortunate about Holland is that he squandered his opportunity to lure in talent with relatively young superstars. He should've begun retooling when we were at the top of our game in 2009-2010. He had opportunities, and a much more attractive roster to lure guys in with. It's hard to blame him for the last few years struggles when you look just at those years, but he could've set himself up with a much more favorable hand if he'd been more aggressive five years ago. The writing was on the wall with the defense then, but nothing was done.

Everything that's happened since is mostly a result of a couple of years of getting caught really flat-footed.

Like what specifically could he have done?

Some of those "circumstances" were his fault. Keeping Cleary, Sammy and Bertuzzi around for too long. Trading a first rounder for Quincey. Spending too many trade deadlines on the phone ordering pizza instead of doing his job.

His defenders make it sound like he's a victim of bad luck or something. He's made his own troubles the last few years. Yeah, there were some bad breaks in there but he's not absolved of guilt.

I agree he's made mistakes, but I'm not sure you can be mistake free in this line of work.

[rick zombo 3,739]

What's most unfortunate about Holland is that he squandered his opportunity to lure in talent with relatively young superstars. He should've begun retooling when we were at the top of our game in 2009-2010. He had opportunities, and a much more attractive roster to lure guys in with. It's hard to blame him for the last few years struggles when you look just at those years, but he could've set himself up with a much more favorable hand if he'd been more aggressive five years ago. The writing was on the wall with the defense then, but nothing was done.

Everything that's happened since is mostly a result of a couple of years of getting caught really flat-footed.

Holland's balls were in a vice because of the cap in 09-10. He lost Hossa, Hudler, and Samuelsson. He wasn't in a position to lure anyone.

He could have traded Filpulla + Franzen for a young blue chip D-man and re-signed Hossa.