At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

[gcom007 1,465]

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

Sorry, but totally disagree about Datsyuk. Z took some time to look like a full-blown superstar, but Datsyuk was pretty incredible from the get go. You knew he was going to be incredible even in his rookie year. He did have to get stronger though, which I think is Nyqvist's biggest need right now as well. He's just too weak. Datsyuk spent one of his early summers putting on 20 pounds of muscle and he became another kind of force when the next season started.

And bear in mind, I'm not one of the people slamming Tatar and Nyquist. I'm definitely willing to give them time to continue to develop. But I don't think either of them have it in them to be as good of players as Datsyuk is and was, let alone how complete of a player Datsyuk is.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Sorry, but totally disagree about Datsyuk. Z took some time to look like a full-blown superstar, but Datsyuk was pretty incredible from the get go. You knew he was going to be incredible even in his rookie year. He did have to get stronger though, which I think is Nyqvist's biggest need right now as well. He's just too weak. Datsyuk spent one of his early summers putting on 20 pounds of muscle and he became another kind of force when the next season started.

And bear in mind, I'm not one of the people slamming Tatar and Nyquist. I'm definitely willing to give them time to continue to develop. But I don't think either of them have it in them to be as good of players as Datsyuk is and was, let alone how complete of a player Datsyuk is.

Zetterberg was considered the better player earlier in their careers. He was a Rookie of the Year finalist. If anything, he looked more like a star than Dats did early on.

Datsyuk wasn't a "complete player" when he came into the league. He learned to play that way later. When he came into the league he was legitimately criticized for being soft on the puck, trying to stick handle too much and not making the simple play, and not shooting enough.

His breakout year was his third, and it wasn't until his fourth that people regarded him as one of the top players in the league (which happens when you score 80+ points). And even up through 2007 people were still wondering if he could be "the guy" in Detroit, considering he hadn't been great in the playoffs until that year.

This notion that Dats was a superstar right from the start, is completely romanticized.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Can't believe people are putting Tatar, Nyquist into Z and Pasha category. Both of them can hopefully solid top 6 wingers for a long time but I don't think they'll ever be stars which isn't a knock on them.

If I had the choice between the best coach in hockey and a GM who doesn't want to take risks I'd pick the best coach.

Babcock was spot on with his comments I think he is trying to make sure that Holland isn't as ill prepared for the post Pasha and I era as he was for the retirement of Rafalski, Lids. I mean if the defense isn't fixed by then how long would it take Holland to also fix the center position ?

If the GR kids are that great, why are other teams only asking for the 2 top guys (Larkin, Mantha) ? Could it be that other teams are having enough of the other guys themselves ? But yeah according to some every prospect will work out because and exceed expectations..

Hockey is a team game and therefore Holland does deserve blame for failing to fix the defense and sticking to patchworks.

Edited May 1, 2015 by frankgrimes

[kipwinger 8,521]

Can't believe people are putting Tatar, Nyquist into Z and Pasha category. Both of them can hopefully solid top 6 wingers for a long time but I don't think they'll ever be stars which isn't a knock on them. If I had the choice between the best coach in hockey and a GM who doesn't want to take risks I'd pick the best coach. Babcock was spot on with his comments I think he is trying to make sure that Holland isn't as ill prepared for the post Pasha and I era as he was for the retirement of Rafalski, Lids. I mean if the defense isn't fixed by then how long would it take Holland to also fix the center position ? If the GR kids are that great, why are other teams only asking for the 2 top guys (Larkin, Mantha) ? Could it be that other teams are having enough of the other guys themselves ? But yeah according to some every prospect will work out because and exceed expectations.. Hockey is a team game and therefore Holland does deserve blame for failing to fix the defense and sticking to patchworks.

Fact: Tatar and Nyquist are better point producers than Dats and Z were at that a similar point in their careers.

The reason "some people" are putting them in the same category is because they've performed better...at least offensively.

Edited May 1, 2015 by kipwinger

[gcom007 1,465]

Zetterberg was considered the better player earlier in their careers. He was a Rookie of the Year finalist. If anything, he looked more like a star than Dats did early on.

Datsyuk wasn't a "complete player" when he came into the league. He learned to play that way later. When he came into the league he was legitimately criticized for being soft on the puck, trying to stick handle too much and not making the simple play, and not shooting enough.

His breakout year was his third, and it wasn't until his fourth that people regarded him as one of the top players in the league (which happens when you score 80+ points). And even up through 2007 people were still wondering if he could be "the guy" in Detroit, considering he hadn't been great in the playoffs until that year.

This notion that Dats was a superstar right from the start, is completely romanticized.

A whole lot of people knew we had something very, very special in Datsyuk in 2002. True, he didn't become the fully realized player he now is until a bit later, but the evidence that he was going to be great was very much on display very early on.

[Mckinley25 677]

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

In fact LGW used to tear Datsyuk a new one every post season because of his play.

[kipwinger 8,521]

A whole lot of people knew we had something very, very special in Datsyuk in 2002. True, he didn't become the fully realized player he now is until a bit later, but the evidence that he was going to be great was very much on display very early on.

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night?

If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

[Holmstrom96 347]

And also, why is making the playoffs the gold standard in Hockeytown now? When did that happen?

Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game.

If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done.

[rick zombo 3,739]

You knew that Datsyuk was a "very very special player" in 2002 when he scored 35 points, mostly passing to Brett Hull, and played 13 minutes a night?

If that's true you have missed your calling as a professional hockey scout.

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

[Liquidsnake 12]

Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game.

If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done.

Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose".

It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking.

You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

Half the fanbase wanted it as well which is actually hilarious.

Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose".

It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking.

You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.

Boston is in cap hell and Chara is basically done. I highly doubt they will be any better then they were this year.

We took Tampa to game 7 (half the forum was saying Tampa in 4), and should have really won the series. I don't look at this year as a complete failure like some other have said. Franzen, and Cole could have really helped. Kronwall could have helped the last game as well.

[kipwinger 8,521]

You know who will be better next year as well? Detroit. We have two young point producers, a fast, aggressive, shutdown fourth line, a power forward who just had a monster year, and a goalie who won't totally suck in overtimes/ shootouts.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Getting into the post-season is quite nice. Yes, first round exists suck, but it happens. Someone gets to win, and someone gets to lose. I love the Wings, but they can't win every year. This isn't a video game where you can turn the difficulty down until you win almost every game. If our goal is going deeper into the playoffs, then yes, we'll need to make changes. We were pretty healthy this year and we didn't get it done. Yes first round exists happen, but it's what, 4 out of the last 5 years for us now? That can't be shrugged off by saying "it happens. Someone gets to win and someone gets to lose". It's very clear that we're lacking some punch to finish teams off in a 7 game series. We can compete, but as of late we've been coming up short, and it's happening far too often for my liking. You know next year Boston is going to be better, just another team in the east that we'll have to fight with for a playoff spot. Something needs to be done.

This team hasn't seen the third round since their last scf appearance. They are hanging on to making the playoffs while the 2 remaining stars are aging fast.Changes will be needed because Boston, Philly well for sure get better ..buffalo has a ton of talent plus they're adding Eichel plus the 16 draft isn't as good as this one. Tough position to be in

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Exactly. No one knew s*** about Datsyuk in 2002 other than he had great hands. If you had told me after the cup run in 02 that Datsyuk would go on to score almost 100 points in a season and win a bazillion Selkes I wouldn't have believed it.

Hell, Holland nearly traded him for Scott Gomez.

I may have been influenced by the number on the back of the sweater but initially I thought Datsyuk would be like Slava Kozlov. A guy with great hands and some nifty moves who could be a great supporting piece but not one of the main guys. Man was I wrong.

That being said I don't think we have a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in Nyquist or Tatar, but I'd love to be wrong again.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

I may have been influenced by the number on the back of the sweater but initially I thought Datsyuk would be like Slava Kozlov. A guy with great hands and some nifty moves who could be a great supporting piece but not one of the main guys. Man was I wrong.

That being said I don't think we have a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in Nyquist or Tatar, but I'd love to be wrong again.

Don't think they'll be as good as zetterberg or datsyuk but then again who is? Some People think star forwards and elite number 1dmen grow on trees

Kind of bugged me hearing Babcock say that ... Go look around each team and see how many teams have 2 elite star forwards upfront

That being said it's not like were f***en chop liver like some people seem to think ... Would a 50 goal scorer like ovechkin be amazing here? Sure but I'd rather have 5-6 guys who can score around 25 goals than one big guy

Nyquist +Tatar can do that .... Abdelkader after this yr has shown he could be get 20-25 goals a few more times

Gotta believe a few out of larkin mantha athanasiou holmstrom will be 20-25 goal guys ... Yes nothing's guaranteed but they got all the tools

Pulkkinen and sheahan can be 20-25 guys .... Jurco if we didn't screw up his development might be able to get back on track

Sure nothing is guaranteed but detroit are far from being over .... All we need now is to add a few solid veterans and dmen in the 26-32 age range to mix in with the kids

And if Babcock doesn't believe in our team then good riddens ... As good a coach as he is he's always had the luxury of having star teams , here and in canada so that surely helps out any coach to win

He leaves , we got Blashill who knows how to push our prospects buttons to get the best out of them

Redwings will be better than okay

Edited May 1, 2015 by nyqvististhefuture

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

What are you talking about?

You said Holland needs to trade our overvalued prospects. I cited 3 examples where he did just that, and recently. One of your less clever side steps my friend.

You obviously didn't get the subtle joke. To me, those three guys were the same person put into one. Wouldn't know them if they walked into my room. I never thought they'd be anything special. Apparently, neither did Holland. Also, we didn't get anything more than rentals for them.

But yes, it was a step in the right direction to trade a few prospects and Holland did make those trades. I wish he took chances like this earlier. Just need better luck and intuition on who we take those chances on. Legwand and Cole didn't pan out.

Edited May 1, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

This team hasn't seen the third round since their last scf appearance. They are hanging on to making the playoffs while the 2 remaining stars are aging fast. Changes will be needed because Boston, Philly well for sure get better ..buffalo has a ton of talent plus they're adding Eichel plus the 16 draft isn't as good as this one. Tough position to be in

Still like the Bruins, eh?

If you're worried about our aging stars, Chara will be 39 next year. I guess we'll see what the next GM does, but I'm doubting they'll have a drastic turnaround. With their free agents to resign, I doubt they'll look much different.

Not going to have to worry about Buffalo for a few years.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

This team hasn't seen the third round since their last scf appearance. They are hanging on to making the playoffs while the 2 remaining stars are aging fast. Changes will be needed because Boston, Philly well for sure get better ..buffalo has a ton of talent plus they're adding Eichel plus the 16 draft isn't as good as this one. Tough position to be inStill like the Bruins, eh?If you're worried about our aging stars, Chara will be 39 next year. I guess we'll see what the next GM does, but I'm doubting they'll have a drastic turnaround. With their free agents to resign, I doubt they'll look much different.Not going to have to worry about Buffalo for a few years.

Neely said he wants them to be the big bad Bruins again and when they play that way they're entertaining to watch.But they need to figure that chara thing because if not they'll have even more defensive trouble.

Charlie made it very clear on what the expectations are there no way he does allow them another season like this year..Julien if they keep him is on a short leash. I expect the Bruins to come out hard and push for the playoffs as will Philly.

Edited May 2, 2015 by frankgrimes

[kickazz 5,459]

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats).

I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

Wrong.

Nyquist in 4 seasons -

Season: 179 Games played - 115 points. PPG 0.64

Playoffs: 30 Games played - 7 points PPG 0.23

Zetterberg in 4 seasons -

Season: 280 Games played - 240 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 40 Games played - 25 points PPG 0.625

Statistically, Zetterberg was better in his first 4 seasons in both playoffs and in regular season than Nyquist.

Datsyuk in 4 seasons -

Season: 284 Games played - 241 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 42 Games played - 21 points PPG 0.5

Datsyuk had the same exact Point per game ratio in his first 4 seasons as Zetterberg and still higher than Nyquist in his first four seasons. Datsyuk's playoff numbers were inferior to Zetterberg's in his first 4 seasons but it was still better than Nyquists.

Can't look at Tatar's number's quiet yet as he's only played 2 legitimate seasons and playoffs.

Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk also killed penalties and had more responsibilities than Tatar and Nyquist did (or ever will, they simply are not even close to being as good defensively as the other two were).

Edited May 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Sorry, but totally disagree about Datsyuk. Z took some time to look like a full-blown superstar, but Datsyuk was pretty incredible from the get go. You knew he was going to be incredible even in his rookie year. He did have to get stronger though, which I think is Nyqvist's biggest need right now as well. He's just too weak. Datsyuk spent one of his early summers putting on 20 pounds of muscle and he became another kind of force when the next season started.

And bear in mind, I'm not one of the people slamming Tatar and Nyquist. I'm definitely willing to give them time to continue to develop. But I don't think either of them have it in them to be as good of players as Datsyuk is and was, let alone how complete of a player Datsyuk is.

This is not at all correct. Datsyuk took a long time to develop in the playoffs. His season numbers were good but his playoff numbers were bad. And he was not "injured" like you're saying. That is an excuse man. If he was injerud his season numbers wouldnt be that great and his playoff numbers be the complete opposite for 4 years in a row. Datsyuk just simply was not a good playoff performer just like Nyquist isn't at the moment. He was a season wonder for a long time. If he was injured for all those years like you say, Then why did he have good numbers in the season but not in the playoffs year in and year out? That doesn't make any sense. Was he healthy for 4 seasons then every playoff run he just happened to get injured? That doesn't make sense. Especially given he played in all but 3 playoffs games the Red Wings qualified for from 2002 - 2006.

Zetterberg from the get go WAS actually the better player. He was 2nd in Calder trophy voting behind Jackman. As their careers progressed Datsyuk became the better player and Zetterberg's back led to his decline in 2009 and beyond. Until 2008 they were on par with each other and Z actually was better as a goal scorer and playoff performer.

Selke Rankings:

2006: Zetterberg 9. Datsyuk Unranked

2007: Zetterberg 7. Datsyuk 20

2008: Zetterberg 3, Datsyuk 1 (Winner)

^ Hence the start of Datsyuk Selke legacy and Zetterbergs decline.

Edited May 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

Wrong.

Nyquist in 4 seasons -

Season: 179 Games played - 115 points. PPG 0.64

Playoffs: 30 Games played - 7 points PPG 0.23

Zetterberg in 4 seasons -

Season: 280 Games played - 240 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 40 Games played - 25 points PPG 0.625

Statistically, Zetterberg was better in his first 4 seasons in both playoffs and in regular season than Nyquist.

Datsyuk in 4 seasons -

Season: 284 Games played - 241 points. PPG 0.85

Playoffs: 42 Games played - 21 points PPG 0.5

Datsyuk had the same exact Point per game ratio in his first 4 seasons as Zetterberg and still higher than Nyquist in his first four seasons. Datsyuk's playoff numbers were inferior to Zetterberg's in his first 4 seasons but it was still better than Nyquists.

Can't look at Tatar's number's quiet yet as he's only played 2 legitimate seasons and playoffs.

Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk also killed penalties and had more responsibilities than Tatar and Nyquist did.

Your probably right, but you really should be comparing them with the same about of games played, not total NHL seasons. Zetterberg/Datsyuk's stats after 179 games would paint a better picture.

Also, as far as playoffs go this is a bit skewed. Zetterberg and Datsyuk's first few playoff games were against alot of greatly inferior opponents on an elite roster. Nyquist has been going up against teams like Anaheim, Chicago, Boston, and TB on a much worse Detroit squad. But I get your point.

Edited May 2, 2015 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

Your probably right, but you really should be comparing them with the same about of games played, not total NHL seasons. Zetterberg/Datsyuk's stats after 179 games would paint a better picture.

Also, as far as playoffs go this is a bit skewed. Zetterberg and Datsyuk's first few playoff games were against alot of greatly inferior opponents on an elite roster. Nyquist has been going up against teams like Anaheim, Chicago, Boston, and TB on a much worse Detroit squad. But I get your point.

You're right. That's why I bolded the PPG rather than the total points or total games. In a population sample you would look at average, plus it's not like Nyquist played only 50 games. 179 is pretty significant.

But it still doesn't change the fact that Pav/Z did put up those numbers with far more responsibilities on ice. There's a reason Babs said what he did today in his interview. "Datsyuk and Zetterberg came in and made older guys around them better. We need the current young guys to do the same thing"

I wouldn't say that we played inferior teams either. We may have been ranked higher in standings but the Anaheim team in 2003 was better. The Edmonton team in 2005/6 was defensively sound as well. They're "A-formation" really shutdown our offense.

Edited May 2, 2015 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

You're right. That's why I bolded the PPG rather than the total points or total games. In a population sample you would look at average, plus it's not like Nyquist played only 50 games. 179 is pretty significant.

But it still doesn't change the fact that Pav/Z did put up those numbers with far more responsibilities on ice. There's a reason Babs said what he did today in his interview. "Datsyuk and Zetterberg came in and made older guys around them better. We need the current young guys to do the same thing"

I wouldn't say that we played inferior teams either. We may have been ranked higher in standings but the Anaheim team in 2003 was better. The Edmonton team in 2005/6 was defensively sound as well. They're "A-formation" really shutdown our offense.

A more appropriate comparison would be looking that their first two full years. Datsyuk was 23 when he came over. Zetterberg was 22. Tatar was 23 for his first full year. Nyquist was 24 (and it wasn't even quite a full year). While Zetterberg was a bit ahead (especially on defense), both Tatar and Nyquist compare pretty well to early Datsyuk. Not that it means anything.

[kliq 3,755]

You're right. That's why I bolded the PPG rather than the total points or total games. In a population sample you would look at average, plus it's not like Nyquist played only 50 games. 179 is pretty significant.

But it still doesn't change the fact that Pav/Z did put up those numbers with far more responsibilities on ice. There's a reason Babs said what he did today in his interview. "Datsyuk and Zetterberg came in and made older guys around them better. We need the current young guys to do the same thing"

I wouldn't say that we played inferior teams either. We may have been ranked higher in standings but the Anaheim team in 2003 was better. The Edmonton team in 2005/6 was defensively sound as well. They're "A-formation" really shutdown our offense.

I agree with you on population sample, but I believe your results be more accurate if you took the first 179 games of everyone's career. A player can improve drastically in the differance between 179 games and 280 games.

I agree with your second paragraph.

As far as your third paragraph, I would call them inferior teams as Anaheim was I believe #7 seed, and Edmonton was a #8 seed. Though in the context of this conversation we are talking about our offense (so their defense) and defensively those teams were on fire. I will give you that one. I still remember in the conference finals, Anaheim only allowed 1 goal in their sweep of Minnesota, unreal.

[evilmrt 636]

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

You're overplaying your hand. Zetterberg was on the Swedish Olympic team as the only non-NHL player before he joined the Wings. Obviously someone thought he was pretty notable lol.