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wings7

At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

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Obviously other people are held accountable.

Smith in for Marchenko.

Smith out for stupidity.

Howard out for poor performance.

Holland? We don't necessarily need to list all the bad moves here. But there's been a plethora of them.

Will he ever go or is he never being fired?

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Nobody is perfect.

Even though we haven't been a favorite to win the Cup since 2009 - the Wings at least make the post season, and have been for many years.

Not sure who's out there that would be any better.

Thanks for your post.

I guess I just don't understand when the bar in Detroit became making the postseason. That seems awfully low for a franchise with 11 Stanley Cup banners.

Nobody is perfect but GMs have been fired for way less than Holland.

Boston for instance. Been to two finals, with 1 victory since 09.

I guess the real issue is, are the Wings moving in the right direction?

Holland deserves blame? Revolutionary

Not exactly sure what you're trying to start. But thanks for posting anyways.

I'm not saying it's revolutionary. It'd be revolutionary for action to be taken though.

I'm wondering if it's time.

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Not exactly sure what you're trying to start. But thanks for posting anyways.

I'm not saying it's revolutionary. It'd be revolutionary for action to be taken though.

I'm wondering if it's time.

What are you trying to start?

What should Holland be blamed for exactly?

The embarrassment of prospects the Wings have stock-piled despite a top 10 pick in 24 years?

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What are you trying to start?

What should Holland be blamed for exactly?

The embarrassment of prospects the Wings have stock-piled despite a top 10 pick in 24 years?

A discussion…Ha.

Most of the prospects exist on many teams. i.e. Tampa Bay's T. Johnson.

How about overpaying for Quincey?

Resigned Cleary twice.

Overpaid and signed Franzen and Howard.

Zidlicky is struggling badly.

Nyquist looks small and lost out there.

Never planned for Lidstrom's and Rafalski's departures.

Didn't figure out a way to keep Hossa.

Stephen Weiss is on the team but doesn't dress.

Does any of that ring a bell? Bother you?

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Sowwy :P but this conversation has happened so many times on here.. it can probably be merged seamlessly with a number of threads.

Anyway, no I don't think Holland is to blame nor will he be fired. He will retire someday but it seems he has a pretty good relationship with the Ilitches so that will likely be on Holland's terms imo.

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Sowwy :P but this conversation has happened so many times on here.. it can probably be merged seamlessly with a number of threads.

Anyway, no I don't think Holland is to blame nor will he be fired. He will retire someday but it seems he has a pretty good relationship with the Ilitches so that will likely be on Holland's terms imo.

Yeah then I agree and disagree with you.

He definitely will not be fired.

He definitely is loved by the Illitches.

However, I do think he bares more blame than what he is getting (about zero).

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Yeah then I agree and disagree with you.

He definitely will not be fired.

He definitely is loved by the Illitches.

However, I do think he bares more blame than what he is getting (about zero).

He could be doing better, sure.. I'll give you that. I don't think he's doing a perfect job by any stretch but, everyone has room for improvement and I don't think he deserves to be fired by any means either.

Either way though, I think the red wings are improving. I think our worst years of the current slump are behind us. The real test for Holland will be when datsyuk and Zetterberg retire. That's when we'll see the real results of his drafting/the wings development imo.

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When he gets on the ice and takes out Erik Cole's spine....until then....

Everyone loved him weeks ago when he made some pretty good trades.

Cole got hurt (not Holland's fault)

Marik has s*** the bed bad in the playoffs (not Holland's fault)

Smith has been better than Marchenko was. Deal with it. Now if you want to talk about Ericsson or DeKeyser...at least Smith is out there throwing his body around while DD and E are turning it over at the blue line or getting beat for a breakaway

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Whether we like it or not (I for sure don't, wanted the captain to takeover) guy got an extension after failing to land a top 4 defenseman this of season and hasn't fixed the D since Godström retried and plan A to replace him failed.

But Mr.I seems to be happy with him, so Holland is here to stay but soon will be challenged to replace 2 (super)star 200ft centers. Holland has to hope Larkin will be able to soften the blow if not...the need for D would turn into a double edged problem: needing D and C..

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A discussion…Ha.

Most of the prospects exist on many teams. i.e. Tampa Bay's T. Johnson.

Find me one team in the league that's had to draft from Detroit's position for the last 24 years that has better prospects. Feel free to use these as refernces

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/future-watch-2015-the-nhls-top-10-rising-prospects/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

How about overpaying for Quincey?

Quincey's been good.

Resigned Cleary twice.

Kept his promise. Continues to exude organizational class. No harm done on the ice.

Overpaid and signed Franzen and Howard.

Franzen is not overpaid. Howard got fair value at the time. This is all on Howard for not keeping his end of the bargain.

Zidlicky is struggling badly.

Meh. Babcock has other options if he wants to use them. Kindl, for example. Didn't give up much to acquire him.

Nyquist looks small and lost out there.

Now you're just stretching

Never planned for Lidstrom's and Rafalski's departures.

How can you? Without tanking like Florida, you're not getting an Ekblad or Jones or Hannafin. #tankit

Didn't figure out a way to keep Hossa.

IMO, his only major mistake.

Stephen Weiss is on the team but doesn't dress.

Holland's only other mistake. Part of that is on Babcock for not using him properly.

Does any of that ring a bell? Bother you?

Just the Hossa thing.

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Only on LGW does a GM "deserve blame" for building an almost entirely homegrown roster, making the playoffs for the zillionth time in a row, and being poised to upset a better team in the first round.

The only thing Ken Holland hasn't done is play/coach the actual game itself.

Has he made some mistakes over the years? Sure. Have those mistakes seriously inhibited our chances of being competitive? The results certainly suggest otherwise.

Or is he supposed to make no mistakes whatsoever?

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A discussion…Ha.

Most of the prospects exist on many teams. i.e. Tampa Bay's T. Johnson.

Find me one team in the league that's had to draft from Detroit's position for the last 24 years that has better prospects. Feel free to use these as refernces

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/future-watch-2015-the-nhls-top-10-rising-prospects/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

How about overpaying for Quincey?

Quincey's been good.

Resigned Cleary twice.

Kept his promise. Continues to exude organizational class. No harm done on the ice.

Overpaid and signed Franzen and Howard.

Franzen is not overpaid. Howard got fair value at the time. This is all on Howard for not keeping his end of the bargain.

Zidlicky is struggling badly.

Meh. Babcock has other options if he wants to use them. Kindl, for example. Didn't give up much to acquire him.

Nyquist looks small and lost out there.

Now you're just stretching

Never planned for Lidstrom's and Rafalski's departures.

How can you? Without tanking like Florida, you're not getting an Ekblad or Jones or Hannafin. #tankit

Didn't figure out a way to keep Hossa.

IMO, his only major mistake.

Stephen Weiss is on the team but doesn't dress.

Holland's only other mistake. Part of that is on Babcock for not using him properly.

Does any of that ring a bell? Bother you?

Just the Hossa thing.

I hear you. But definitely disagree completely.

Holland isn't me or you. He's supposed to be our expert.

Some of this has to fall on him.

You can't blame Howard for not being the guy. Holland needs to have recognized that. If we can trade him this offseason that'd be a big step. For a bag of pucks even. Get rid of that cap number.

Franzen is overpaid based on what he's done for us. That's all I meant.

Knowing who is injury prone is part of the GMs job. He can't predict it, but he can make a educational bet.

Nyquist or Tatar need to be traded in my opinion this offseason. They are too similar and while their stocks are high, could land us something we really need. Like another Top 3 D man.

IMHO, if you are going to oust Holland, replace him with someone better. There isn't anyone on the market that is better right now.

You could get Yzerman to come home. You could probably get Scotty to be our GM.

Only on LGW does a GM "deserve blame" for building an almost entirely homegrown roster, making the playoffs for the zillionth time in a row, and being poised to upset a better team in the first round.

The only thing Ken Holland hasn't done is play/coach the actual game itself.

Has he made some mistakes over the years? Sure. Have those mistakes seriously inhibited our chances of being competitive? The results certainly suggest otherwise.

Or is he supposed to make no mistakes whatsoever?

I'm not happy just sneaking into the playoffs. And since Nill and Bowman and Yzerman have left, we have struggled. Agree or disagree?

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I hear you. But definitely disagree completely.

Holland isn't me or you. He's supposed to be our expert.

Some of this has to fall on him.

You can't blame Howard for not being the guy. Holland needs to have recognized that. If we can trade him this offseason that'd be a big step. For a bag of pucks even. Get rid of that cap number.

Franzen is overpaid based on what he's done for us. That's all I meant.

Knowing who is injury prone is part of the GMs job. He can't predict it, but he can make a educational bet.

Nyquist or Tatar need to be traded in my opinion this offseason. They are too similar and while their stocks are high, could land us something we really need. Like another Top 3 D man.

You could get Yzerman to come home. You could probably get Scotty to be our GM.

What? You can't blame Howard for playing like garbage late this season but you can blame Holland for not being able to predict the future? :lol:

Let the records show, I tried to have a discussion here, but I'm out.

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What? You can't blame Howard for playing like garbage late this season but you can blame Holland for not being able to predict the future? :lol:

Let the records show, I tried to have a discussion here, but I'm out.

No dude. What you're saying is then a GM is never to blame. They always assume players will be good. I'm totally confused at your logic here.

You can obviously leave but I don't understand your point.

YES. IT IS THE GMs JOB TO KNOW IF A PLAYER IS GOING TO WORK OUT OR NOT. IF NOT THEN WHAT IS THEIR JOB?!

Edited by wings7

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I'm not happy just sneaking into the playoffs. And since Nill and Bowman and Yzerman have left, we have struggled. Agree or disagree?

Lol. Disagree. Whole heartedly.

Since Bowman left (2002) we've made the playoffs every single year, went to the finals twice, and won the Cup once.

Since Yzerman left (2010) we've made the playoffs every single year.

Same with Nill (2013).

You know who's struggled since Yzerman and Nill left? Yzerman and Nill.

Edited by kipwinger

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Lol. Disagree. Whole heartedly.

Since Bowman left (2002) we've made the playoffs every single year, went to the finals twice, and won the Cup once.

Since Yzerman left (2010) we've made the playoffs every single year.

Same with Nill (2013).

You know how's struggled since Yzerman and Nill left? Yzerman and Nill.

Bowman was with us until we won the Cup in '08.

Since '10 we haven't gotten through the second round.

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Bowman was with us until we won the Cup in '08.

Since '10 we haven't gotten through the second round.

As a "special consultant". You know who else is a "special consultant" to the Red Wings. Chelios and Lidstrom. It would be a stretch to attribute the team's successes or failures to "special consultants".

You're reaching dude.

You can search the entire world over, and you will not find ANYONE who's a better NHL General Manager than Holland. He's got the hardware to prove it. He is, literally, the most accomplished executive in the business. Period. Fin.

So I'm not really sure what you're trying to do here, say that he should be replaced with someone better? There isn't anyone. Demonstrably so. Or are you saying that he's really not that good, and that his underlings did all the work? Which would be silly, because the team was arguably MORE successful when he was the underling.

No matter how you cut it, he's the most competent person at his job...by a ******* mile.

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As a "special consultant". You know who else is a "special consultant" to the Red Wings. Chelios and Lidstrom. It would be a stretch to attribute the team's successes or failures to "special consultants".

You're reaching dude.

You can search the entire world over, and you will not find ANYONE who's a better NHL General Manager than Holland. He's got the hardware to prove it. He is, literally, the most accomplished executive in the business. Period. Fin.

So I'm not really sure what you're trying to do here, say that he should be replaced with someone better? There isn't anyone. Demonstrably so. Or are you saying that he's really not that good, and that his underlings did all the work? Which would be silly, because the team was arguably MORE successful when he was the underling.

No matter how you cut it, he's the most competent person at his job...by af****** mile.

Okay that settles it. Thanks.

I'm clearly in the minority here. And that's fine. He has earned much of his hardware when there was no salary cap.

I don't think he's been that terrific lately.

Just my two cents. We apparently disagree though. Which is fine. Neither of us get to fire or retain him anyways.

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Some of this stuff is just ridiculous lol ... Did I agree with every move holland ever made? Nope ... Hated giving up janmark ... Said from day 1 weiss would be a bust , didn't like resigning again and again samuelsson cleary and bertuzzi

But to blame holland for such of the stupidities I read?

Not preparing for lidstrom's departure? He tried to sign ryan suter and it didn't work , short of that wtf you want him to do? Nobody is gonna trade away a weber or Keith etc... We have to hope we develop one or wait for one to actually be a ufa and target them like everyone else will

Taking a shot at nyquist? Short of us never having drafted nyquist wtf do you want holland to do? And without nyquist's goal production we Wouldnt even be in the playoffs

Overall Taking digs at holland is just nonsense .... Nobody is just giving away there best players

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Okay that settles it. Thanks.

I'm clearly in the minority here. And that's fine. He has earned much of his hardware when there was no salary cap.

I don't think he's been that terrific lately.

Just my two cents. We apparently disagree though. Which is fine. Neither of us get to fire or retain him anyways.

You've clearly got an axe to grind, which is the point of contention.

You're blaming Holland for things like Nyquist being small and lost, and Stephen Weiss being less effective than he was prior to an injury he didn't have when Holland traded for him.

You're right to say that Holland has made some mistakes over the years. Nobody would argue that. But you're attributing things to him which are totally asinine.

And what's more, you're doing it while the team is actually performing pretty well in the playoffs. Which also suggests some sort of agenda. You might have a point if we'd just been swept. But we didn't. We've played well and earned a 7th game. Why don't you wait and see how the season turns out before assigning blame/finger pointing.

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Blame for what? We are in a battle with one of the best teams in the league (a team some picked for the cup), and we are going into a game 7 tomorrow. I don't see what there is to "blame" him for.

Edited by kliq

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