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At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

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You know how's struggled since Yzerman and Nill left? Yzerman and Nill.

This right here. I know many LGW members are all over Yzerman's nuts saying that he is the best GM since sliced bread. However, since he has taken over as GM of the Lightning, his team has made it to the conference finals once. Oh, I'm sorry, that wasn't his team because he didn't build it. Now, if it was his team, then Holland deserves credit for GMing the team in 98 when they won the cup, but I digress. If you don't give him credit for that, then he has won 0 playoff series. In fact, he has missed the playoffs and then got swept out last season. If his team loses in the first round this year to a team that is not as good as his, I wonder how many will anoint him as the best GM for Detroit?

Jim Nill is the same thing. He goes into Dallas, makes a lot of moves, and LGW goes nuts all over him too. He is better than Holland, right? Instead, Dallas doesn't get into the playoffs. LGW is silent on him now.

Both Nill and Yzerman have had questionable signings in their short tenure as well. So they are not immune to making mistakes either.

Anyone saying that Yzerman and Nill are better than Holland only need to look at the track record so far.

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This right here. I know many LGW members are all over Yzerman's nuts saying that he is the best GM since sliced bread. However, since he has taken over as GM of the Lightning, his team has made it to the conference finals once. Oh, I'm sorry, that wasn't his team because he didn't build it. Now, if it was his team, then Holland deserves credit for GMing the team in 98 when they won the cup, but I digress. If you don't give him credit for that, then he has won 0 playoff series. In fact, he has missed the playoffs and then got swept out last season. If his team loses in the first round this year to a team that is not as good as his, I wonder how many will anoint him as the best GM for Detroit?

Jim Nill is the same thing. He goes into Dallas, makes a lot of moves, and LGW goes nuts all over him too. He is better than Holland, right? Instead, Dallas doesn't get into the playoffs. LGW is silent on him now.

Both Nill and Yzerman have had questionable signings in their short tenure as well. So they are not immune to making mistakes either.

Anyone saying that Yzerman and Nill are better than Holland only need to look at the track record so far.

Some people have a philosophy that making moves makes you a good GM. Personally, I feel that its all about making the right moves, and sometimes about the moves you dont make that make you a good GM.

Yzerman and Nill could end up being great GM's. But they havent proved anything yet,

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

I appreciate y'all trying to change the direction of the thread though.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

Like I said, I disagree with that.

I think if the Wings made it to the first round of the playoffs for the next 20 years with Holland he'd never get fired and no one would mind on here because the playoffs has become the bar.

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

I appreciate y'all trying to change the direction of the thread though.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

Like I said, I disagree with that.

I think if the Wings made it to the first round of the playoffs for the next 20 years with Holland he'd never get fired and no one would mind on here because the playoffs has become the bar.

Hello hyperbole, it's been a long time since I've seen yer' ugly mug around these parts!

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To answer the OP's question, Holland will never be fired by Ilitch. If his sons want to fire him, then they need to make that move. I wouldn't mind seeing a new GM with fresh ideas, much like the coach. Holland and Babcock have reached their peek and did some great things, but at this point someone with fresh ideas on how to grow the team would help. I don't think this team can improve anymore under the current regime. Yeah, we got some nice prospects, but none of them are star players and that's the hard part about not drafting high every season. It's hard to build stars through the draft when you draft mid table every year.

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

I honestly had to check your profile to see if you were new here after reading these statements. When does Holland get blamed for his bad moves? The answer, around here anyway, is ALL THE TIME. Constantly. It inevitably leaks into 90% of our threads along with Jimmy sucking and Babs being an incompetent coach. He gets absolutely *dragged* if he so much as farts in the same room players are in because it negatively affects air quality and makes them play worse. Yours are not new sentiments, and frankly it is refreshing seeing the level-headed, rational responses.

Bottom line: Holland, like all humans ever everywhere, has made some mistakes. Some absolute stinkers. Should we replace him with someone better? Sure, I'm all about improvement. Who should we court that is clearly a better GM than Holland?

*crickets*

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Holland is a great GM overall. The team has done a tremendous job in developing players without having any early draft picks and he has an impressive track record.

When it comes to free agent signings though Holland has made several uncharacteristically bad deals over the last few seasons. And has looked desperate in his attempts to bolster the blueline in Lidstrom's absence, which was also uncharacteristic of him.

I think my biggest worry with Holland is that the handful of bad deals he's made are indicating a trend rather than exceptions.

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Holland is a great GM overall. The team has done a tremendous job in developing players without having any early draft picks and he has an impressive track record.

When it comes to free agent signings though Holland has made several uncharacteristically bad deals over the last few seasons. And has looked desperate in his attempts to bolster the blueline in Lidstrom's absence, which was also uncharacteristic of him.

I think my biggest worry with Holland is that the handful of bad deals he's made are indicating a trend rather than exceptions.

In addition, there are some deals he hasn't made which could have positively or negatively impacted the team. We really can't say in hindsight if it was a good deal or not.

I remember when Weiss was signed. Everyone was all over this signing as a great one. This was an upgrade over Flip. Now, he isn't viewed as an upgrade anymore.

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Holland is a great GM overall. The team has done a tremendous job in developing players without having any early draft picks and he has an impressive track record.

When it comes to free agent signings though Holland has made several uncharacteristically bad deals over the last few seasons. And has looked desperate in his attempts to bolster the blueline in Lidstrom's absence, which was also uncharacteristic of him.

I think my biggest worry with Holland is that the handful of bad deals he's made are indicating a trend rather than exceptions.

In addition, there are some deals he hasn't made which could have positively or negatively impacted the team. We really can't say in hindsight if it was a good deal or not.

I remember when Weiss was signed. Everyone was all over this signing as a great one. This was an upgrade over Flip. Now, he isn't viewed as an upgrade anymore.

There were more than a few people who were either neutral or didn't like the signing at all. Just do a quick search

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There were more than a few people who were either neutral or didn't like the signing at all. Just do a quick search

I would say that those people were much fewer than the ones who lauded the signing. Me? I thought it was a good signing as well. Up until the point that Weiss hasn't performed up to snuff.

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I would say that those people were much fewer than the ones who lauded the signing. Me? I thought it was a good signing as well. Up until the point that Weiss hasn't performed up to snuff.

I just wish I saw him play in Florida so I had some idea the kind of player he used to be. On paper it sure sounded good.

As I've said many times before, I just don't understand how a guy who was a 2nd line center, and sometimes even a 1st, can be so easy to strip the puck from.

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#TankIt

#FireKenHolland

#DoRedWingsFansDeserveBetter

#IsHankTooSlowAndIneffectiveToPlayCenter

#AreWeContenders?

.......Welcome to the Club...........!!!!!!!

#AtWhatPointDoesHollandDeserveBlame

I always think of posts like these when they show that in game graphic, you know - when it shows the current leader (in all of the 4 major sports) regarding longest active playoff streaks... The one where we have like 24, the best NBA organization (arguably ever) has like 17, the best 2 football organizations (arguably ever) have like 6, and the baseball teams have like 3 each. Oh, in that time we've transitioned from being an old team to a young and inexperienced team... through 2 lockouts and the implementation of a hard salary cap.

I can't wait to win tomorrow night and go through my "why so negative thread" to remember why we were going to lose in 5 to TB.

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I just wish I saw him play in Florida so I had some idea the kind of player he used to be. On paper it sure sounded good.

As I've said many times before, I just don't understand how a guy who was a 2nd line center, and sometimes even a 1st, can be so easy to strip the puck from.

Remember when Helm was coming back from his groin and back issues and he generally didn't seem as effective as before? It seemed due to the fact that he hadn't regained that extra step of speed he had, which made him a special (as opposed to just a decent) player. As he began to regain that step, his game began to round back into form.

I never saw Weiss play in Florida. But at the time of the signing, all the reports I read on him said that he was a very quick player. They listed skating as one of his biggest assets. During his time in Detroit he's looked average in that department, and I wonder if the speed he lost due to his groin and hernia issues is the difference between Stephen Weiss the 60 pts. player, and Stephen Weiss the 25-30 point player.

Just a hypothesis.

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I think we live in our isolated LGW land forget that the cap world is designed to make good teams worse and bad teams better. We've been able resist this and sustain a playoff bound team. That is a huge accomplishment. I think you have to look at the rise and fall of other teams to appreciate it. I think The Devils are best comparison. They had great success in the 90s and 00s. They were in roughly the same situation with draft picks where they didn't get high draft picks due to this success. Now look at them. The mistakes they've made (Parise, Kovy, etc.) crippled that team. Holland's mistakes (Samuelsson, Hossa, Cleary, Kindl) have been made while still allowing us to have a level of success. Every GM makes mistakes.

As for this current series, we've got one game to win it. We've played pretty well on the whole. I think it's important have a reality check for our situation. We had Howard, our starting goalie, lose his s*** half way through the season. 2 major sources for scoring are gone (Franzen, Cole - though Cole was kind of a Mule replacement). We have a huge contract that was supposed to be a significant part of the team sitting in the stands (Weiss). And yet we're in a position to win this series. That's a testament to organizational depth. I think few teams could take those hits and still be the place we are. For Tampa, that would be the equivalent to taking Filppula, Bishop, and Callahan(for Franzen - maybe Killhorn instead) out of their lineup.

I also think people need to remember that we are currently a rebuilding team. We weren't expected go the distance this year. This team has had flashes of greatness and definitely shows that we are a team going in the right direction. We have a great stoke pile of prospects could very well be the missing pieces. If you want to blame Holland for his mistakes, you also have to praise him for that.

Now, finally, I have to say, WHY ARE WE DOING THIS NOW?!! We have a game 7 tomorrow! The Lightning look very beatable to me. I'm predicting a win. Let wait to assess this season until it's over.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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I think we live in our isolated LGW land forget that the cap world is designed to make good teams worse and bad teams better. We've been able resist this and sustain a playoff bound team. That is a huge accomplishment. I think you have to look at the rise and fall of other teams to appreciate it. I think The Devils are best comparison. They had great success in the 90s and 00s. They were in roughly the same situation with draft picks where they didn't get high draft picks due to this success. Now look at them. The mistakes they've made (Parise, Kovy, etc.) crippled that team. Holland's mistakes (Samuelsson, Hossa, Cleary, Kindl) have been made while still allowing us to have a level of success. Every GM makes mistakes.

As for this current series, we've got one game to win it. We've played pretty well on the whole. I think it's important have a reality for our situation. We had Howard, our starting goalie, lose his s*** half way through the season. 2 major sources for scoring are gone (Franzen, Cole - though Cole was kind of a Mule replacement). We have a huge contract that was supposed to be a significant part of the team sitting in the stands (Weiss). And yet we're in a position to win this series. That's a testament to organizational depth. I think few teams could take those hits and still be the place we are. For Tampa, that would be the equivalent to taking Filppula, Bishop, and Callahan(for Franzen - maybe Killhorn instead) out of their lineup.

I also think people need to remember that we are currently a rebuilding team. We weren't expected go the distance this year. This team has had flashes of greatness and definitely shows that we are a team going in the right direction. We have a great stoke pile of prospects could very well be the missing pieces. If you want to blame Holland for his mistakes, you also have to praise him for that.

Now, finally, I have to say, WHY ARE WE DOING THIS NOW?!! We have a game 7 tomorrow! The Lightning look very beatable to me. I'm predicting a win. Let wait to assess this season until it's over.

Great points.

Don't mistake my post. I think we win tomorrow. But I think we can be a better team for sure and some of the mistakes are on Holland. That's all.

The timing of this thread doesn't make any sense.

Blame him in the 2012 offseason, Hossa, and Weiss. The most recent is two years old. But with the future of this team looking the way it does, "blaming" him for anything at this moment in time doesn't make sense...

The timing is just a question. It would be weirder to me to just bring it up if we lose. I think we win anyways. Doesn't mean I think Holland has done a lot. I think Babcock wins in spite of what Holland puts on his bench.

And just because those moves are old doesn't mean they are forgotten...

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I was purely asking when does Holland get blamed for his bad moves.

I appreciate y'all trying to change the direction of the thread though.

It's clear he doesn't get any blame for any bad moves. He can do no wrong in Detroit.

Like I said, I disagree with that.

I think if the Wings made it to the first round of the playoffs for the next 20 years with Holland he'd never get fired and no one would mind on here because the playoffs has become the bar.

He gets blamed every year..who are you going to get to replace him? yzerman isn't going anywhere and Bowman isn't coming either

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Holland is a great GM overall. The team has done a tremendous job in developing players without having any early draft picks and he has an impressive track record.

When it comes to free agent signings though Holland has made several uncharacteristically bad deals over the last few seasons. And has looked desperate in his attempts to bolster the blueline in Lidstrom's absence, which was also uncharacteristic of him.

I think my biggest worry with Holland is that the handful of bad deals he's made are indicating a trend rather than exceptions.

This is my feeling as well. No one can really take his drafting ability away from him. But he can't seem to make a trade or sign a free-agent without it blowing up in his face. Some of the deals he's made have seemed flat out terrible from the start, but even the one's that seem like good moves have been mostly busts. The fact that this basically is a trend at this point should be concerning on some level.

Drafting is important, no doubt, but you still need to be able to round out your team via trade and free agency if you're going to make the long run. What's frustrating is that this team is capable of making a serious run with improved defense, and Holland's struggled to improve it in any meaningful way for years now. We've had five years in which the defense has just continued to get worse, while numerous forwards are signed that oftentimes can't even crack the lineup.

How much money have we wasted on guys that have been healthy scratches or Griffins the last five years?

Way too much.

As I've said in the past, so you don't get Suter or some of the other bigger names, but you can't find any mid-level guys? How often have we talked about not wanting to overpay players, yet millions of dollars of cap space is blown on guys that don't contribute. Why not overpay for some mid-level defense then? At least the money would be going to good use.

People can praise Holland for drafting all they want, and you'd have to be a fool to disagree with them. But the guy has been beyond lousy with free agents and trades for five years now. When even the seemingly good signings are blowing up in your face and they're mixed in with too many flat-out terrible signings, you deserve the criticism you're going to get.

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He gets blamed every year..who are you going to get to replace him? yzerman isn't going anywhere and Bowman isn't coming either

Whether or not he could or should be replaced doesn't negate the fact that it's frustrating how poorly Holland has performed at acquiring NHL talent via trade or free agency. He's done a really lousy job of it for five years. Just because he drafts well doesn't mean that it's not colossally frustrating that he's made so many terrible signings and trades over the last five years.

I feel like I'm in the middle of the road on the issue at this point to be clear. I don't necessarily think he should be fired for what he's done given all that he brings in other areas, and I think he gets too much blame for a lot of things, but I can understand completely why he's become such a frustrating and polarizing GM. At this point, he's definitely deserving of much of the criticism he gets just as he's deserving of much of the praise that he gets.

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Whether or not he could or should be replaced doesn't negate the fact that it's frustrating how poorly Holland has performed at acquiring NHL talent via trade or free agency. He's done a really lousy job of it for five years. Just because he drafts well doesn't mean that it's not colossally frustrating that he's made so many terrible signings and trades over the last five years.

I feel like I'm in the middle of the road on the issue at this point to be clear. I don't necessarily think he should be fired for what he's done given all that he brings in other areas, and I think he gets too much blame for a lot of things, but I can understand completely why he's become such a frustrating and polarizing GM. At this point, he's definitely deserving of much of the criticism he gets just as he's deserving of much of the praise that he gets.

I disagree with your premise though. I don't think he has been colossally bad in FA or at the trade deadline, at least not during the time period you're talking about.

You yourself said that if you can't get a guy like Suter, you should get a mid level guy. Which he went out and did, in White and Quincey. He later got Dekeyser to play in that role too. He also signed depth defensemen in Colaiacovo, Commodore, and Zidlicky as well.

On top of that he signed or traded for four top six forwards (Alfredsson, Legwand, Weiss, and Cole). Two of them were busts because of injury. We don't make the playoffs without the other two. During that time he also signed depth forward in Tootoo and Sammy. And he brought in Brunner, I don't really know what you'd call him, though he really didn't play bad for us.

Finally, he brought in a backup goalie for cheap, who acted as a bridge between Howard and Mrazek and did a pretty good job...especially a year ago when Jimmy was injured.

So, in the last five years, Holland brought in:

White

Quincey

Colaiacovo

Commodore

Zidlicky

Dekeyser

Alfredsson

Legwand

Weiss

Cole

Brunner

Tootoo

Sammy

Gustavsson.

That's not terrible. And, aside from injuries (which you can't anticipate before they happen), it's actually a pretty good mix of players that filled a variety of roles for us.

It should also be noted that we didn't give up a hell of a lot to get any of those guys either. So he managed to do all that AND not mortage the future. I'd say that's pretty good considering the alternative (give up a fortune for guys like Vanek, Iginla, Jagr, Pominville, Nash, Suter, Parise, etc.) hasn't exactly yielded positive returns for the teams who have gone that route.

Edited by kipwinger

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This is an impossible subject to speak definitively about because many of the positive and negative outcomes of a GM's decision are dependent on a range of factors largely beyond their control, so a case by case basis either way is either cherry picking or at best indicative of minor trends. The only real test is overall results and overall comparisons to others.

First off, it has to be acknowledged that he inherited a great situation. Stacked roster, no salary cap, devoted fan-base, supportive owner and a ninja European scout. Could do a lot worse.

Equally, it has to be recognised that the job he did in extending that situation and improving the infrastructure around him surpassed all expectations. Anyone remember the wings being 'too old' and in terminal decline even before the salary cap was introduced? The wings dropping out of the playoffs within two years has been an annual prediction since the lockout over a decade ago. Hasn't happened.

Of course much of that has been dependent on coaching and drafting, neither of which he can take much direct credit for, particularly given our best draft picks have been late round specials. But crucially, the primary aspect of management is to find good people you trust and empower them with the trust and conditions to do their job well. This is perhaps, along with his patience, his biggest strength as a GM.

One also has to agree that although the post Lidstrom era has been less fun than hoped due to Suter's 50/50 choice being dictated by his ill advised decision to join his mate in the mountains, the Red Wings have done a remarkable job at circumnavigating the primary objectives of the combination of draft and salary cap, that being parity and a rotation of who makes the playoffs. Of course, a quicker route to the big prizes is to fail badly in good draft years, but the roster has remained too strong for this to be appropriate.

The over-riping development model, for the most part has been crucial to sustaining this. Because the team has remained at least partially competitive, it has been important to only rely on prospects when they are ready. If the team was in worse shape, they'd be up sooner.

And yes, the late round gems have kept on coming , from D & Z to the comparative huge successes (ie statistically massively overachieving compared for the norm for their draft location) of Hudker, Flip, Ericsson (and even Meech to a degree!) in '02, Quincey in '03 (though waiving him was such a poor choice at the time, he has eventually proved his worth), Franzen in '04, Abdelkader to a degree but certainly Helm in '05, (06 had real talent, but none made it here for different reasons), Andersson in '07 (just about..), Nyquist in '08, Tatar in '09 (and Jensen and Ferraro and Callahan may yet get there), Mrazel, Pulks in '10. Subsequent years have a very good chance to be equally successful or better, but its too early to say.

Howard (goalies are different!), kopecky, Smith & Sheahan are about par or just below at this point, and only really Kindl, Mccollum and maybe Emmerton are real disappointments.

Trading & FA is a bit more sketchy, but its important to balance recent years with earlier ones. Every Legwand (which if you prioritise the streak is a wash), Weiss, Tootoo, Modano, and the later Sammy/Cleary versions or even Robert Lang or Cujo if you want to be harsh is more than countered by Cleary/Sammy first time, Rafalski, Chelios, Larianov (second time I think was KH), Hull, Hasek (both!), Lucky Luc, Brad Stuart, Alfie, even drew Miller!

Also worth noting that barring the Robert Lang deal where Washington ended up with Mike Green, the wings have won on every single trade for draft picks or exchanging picks in the last 16 years. The only other exception was a pick that was eventually used for Patrick Sharp, but that changed hands about 4 times before the draft in which it was used!

The more recent trend is not that encouraging, but how many of the poor trades or FA signings have hamstrung us? Weiss is the only albatross, unless you decide that Howard's contract is as well, which is hardly a forgone conclusion given pre-injury performance levels. Of course the Franzen/Hossa thing will always be a frustration, but even despite people bagging him, until their is a cap reclaimation (NHL changing the rules AFTER the event), the Franzen contract has actually been mostly very good value.

Of course, what happens next is more important than what happened previously, and in the last 2 seasons the jury is out due to the unfortunate results of trades and Free Agency (such a shame about Cole, who looked a really nice fit in the top 9). So this summer is not insignificant. If Holland can bring in any quality FAs and get Kindl and Weiss of the cap, that would be success I think. but we can wait and see I guess.....

One thought I will leave with...imagine how much stronger his legacy would be if we hadn't seen the loss of Vladdy's norris levels of play, Fisher's punishing hitting or Grigorenko being seen as almost Kovalchuk good before his crash. We could easily be a cup or two better off.

Edited by lomekian

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I disagree with your premise though. I don't think he has been colossally bad in FA or at the trade deadline, at least not during the time period you're talking about.

You yourself said that if you can't get a guy like Suter, you should get a mid level guy. Which he went out and did, in White and Quincey. He later got Dekeyser to play in that role too. He also signed depth defensemen in Colaiacovo, Commodore, and Zidlicky as well.

On top of that he signed or traded for four top six forwards (Alfredsson, Legwand, Weiss, and Cole). Two of them were busts because of injury. We don't make the playoffs without the other two. During that time he also signed depth forward in Tootoo and Sammy. And he brought in Brunner, I don't really know what you'd call him, though he really didn't play bad for us.

Finally, he brought in a backup goalie for cheap, who acted as a bridge between Howard and Mrazek and did a pretty good job...especially a year ago when Jimmy was injured.

...

It should also be noted that we didn't give up a hell of a lot to get any of those guys either. So he managed to do all that AND not mortage the future. I'd say that's pretty good considering the alternative (give up a fortune for guys like Vanek, Iginla, Jagr, Pominville, Nash, Suter, Parise, etc.) hasn't exactly yielded positive returns for the teams who have gone that route.

I think we have different definitions of mid-level defensemen, but here's my take on the guys we did get, and why I don't think the majority of them serve as solid examples of his ability to successfully sign or trade for talent lately, at least talent that is useful to this team:

White - desperation act, wasn't terrible at first, but floundered and saw his role reduced drastically as time went on, didn't play in the playoffs in his second year and then a swift goodbye

Quincey - no one much liked him before this year. We shipped him out once and brought him back, and we weren't even looking to sign him until we struck out on everything else last summer. It's fair to say we all got lucky on this one, as he's been much better this year, but I wouldn't go out of my way to call this a flying success, though it's a dim brighter spot on his recent resume

Colaiacovo - I honestly didn't think he looked so bad once he finally got healthy, but his first season was shortened by injury, then he was bought out. Not exactly a success story, and one of several examples of Holland signing guys with past injury issues that ended up sidelined by injuries as Wings

Commodore - another desperation addition that went nowhere, some say it's Babcock's fault, but if you want to say that, then I ask why is the GM then signing guys that seem bound for a collision course with Babs in the first place?

Zidlicky - I actually have no problem with this move even in light of his playoff performance, we didn't give up much for him, it was a gamble, it went well at first, not so well down the stretch, BFD, mildly frustrating, but it is what it is, I will not be happy if he's signed for next year, but I don't think that will happen

Dekeyser - the best signing he's made recently, clearly helped by the fact that he's a Detroit native, we're lucky that he wasn't from Minnesota as that's how these things so oftentimes go, I'm not taking it away from Holland, but considering his greatest acquisition success story of late comes due largely the luck of the geographical draw, I wouldn't go out of my way to champion the guy over it.

Alfredsson - I liked this deal a lot and I think he was hugely important to this team last year. I was truly upset he couldn't go for one more year. This was a great short term signing in my mind.

Legwand - I never was really sold on the deal, not sure he was as essential to us making the playoffs last year as some suggest, and he ultimately didn't work out for us. Holland expected to sign him when we traded for him and like many of Holland's ideas lately, that went by the wayside

Weiss - I just don't even know what the f*** to say about this one at this point. I couldn't possibly hold it against Holland, but it sure speaks to the luck he's developed in recent years

Cole - I have no problem with this deal, again, not much given up for a guy who could've helped a lot, but alas, injury struck, again, if it weren't for bad luck...but you also couldn't say that Cole has been the most sturdy player beforehand.

Brunner - yeah, bizarre situation, what can you say? He was good for us, and he tried to sign him and didn't. Imagine if he'd been successful though...maybe he still has some luck now and again after all.

Tootoo - where did he play most of his games again? And buyout. It was a shame, and maybe another instance where one might blame Babcock, but see Commodore, why sign the guy to fail in our system? I'm happy he bought him out at least for Tootoo's sake.

Sammy - Terrible, horrible, no good, very bad signing. Disaster. Pathetic. Symptomatic of some of his problems in the last five years; seemingly influenced by nostalgia, misplaced loyalty, or whatever it is, it hasn't exactly served him well recently.

Gustavsson - I have no problems with this signing whatsoever, despite the injury issues, and generally I think Holland does a good job with signing goalies. He hit a rough patch when he brought Hasek and Cujo into the same room, but generally, he's brought in guys that get the job done at a good price.

There are a few relative bright spots, mostly through deadline trades and DD and Alfie, but for the most part, you've got guys who couldn't crack the lineup consistently, even in injury-filled years, and guys that had/have injury issues. You can't blame him for some injuries obviously, but some of these guys had histories with injuries which you have to account for. And as said, if you want to blame Babcock for how he's handled some players, that's fine, but you can't not blame the GM for bringing guys in that were bound to clash with Babcock, though I personally don't believe that's how things went for the most part.

All in all, there just aren't a lot of success stories mixed in there, and even the one's that I'd say have been successful moves, many might disagree with me with some merit, such as on Alfie and Gus for example. At the end of the day, there's just not many guys who were able to contribute much to the Detroit Red Wings, and only one who's sticking around with longterm upside. I'll absolutely give you the fact that we never had to give up much to make these deals, but we have thrown a lot of cap space away on players that didn't come close to panning out, and nearly every signing was done from a place of desperation after failing to land the bigger names he was chasing early on, perhaps letting more modest and accessible deals pass by in the process.

Maybe it's fair to say Holland hasn't done colossally bad in FA and in trades, because it's true, we didn't give up much. And he certainly hasn't been lucky. But I think it's very fair to say that he's done little that you could call good. For a guy who's supposed to be the best GM in the business, you'd think he could do better than, I don't know, not colossally bad?

And I still think we stand to learn a lot about Ken Holland's ability to build a team in this era when Dats and Z retire...

Edited by gcom007

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Obviously other people are held accountable.

Smith in for Marchenko.

Smith out for stupidity.

Howard out for poor performance.

Holland? We don't necessarily need to list all the bad moves here. But there's been a plethora of them.

Will he ever go or is he never being fired?

If Cole and Franzen were playing we would've won this series already. Can't really fault Holland for anything this year.

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If Cole and Franzen were playing we would've won this series already. Can't really fault Holland for anything this year.

This might be the most interesting post so far.

Good take, man.

I don't know if it's true because of obvious speculation, but man, would that be nice to have those two.

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