At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

[number9 3,297]

I would like to see Holland be more willing to trade picks. He doesn't have to trade the whole farm team, but he needs to be more flexible and less scared of giving away some overvalued prospects.

We're not going to home grow a Cup contender from low draft picks. Doesn't work that way. You need some legit scorers with talent.

None of those guys were special. And that's how I side-step points also.

Jarnkrok - constantly compared to Zetterberg

Backman - at one point the highest rated defensive prospect we had

Janmark - one of the best young players in the SEL

But sure, pretend like they were scrubs who were never "overvalued prospects". I think most anyone who seriously follows the team will see through that.

People are still mad about giving up each one of them lol

Edited May 1, 2015 by number9

[rick zombo 3,739]

Jarnkrok - constantly compared to Zetterberg

Zetterberg was a rookie of the year finalist. Jarnkrok spent his rookie season as third/fourth line plug. They compare Larkin to Toews. I think comparisons in these cases are used to explain a players style, rather than their ceiling

Backman - at one point the highest rated defensive prospect we had

Bad attitude. Like Ryno and Dick Axelsson. We know how they panned out.

Janmark - one of the best young players in the SEL

I believe that's actually Axel Holmstrom. His development made Janmark disposable.

But sure, pretend like they were scrubs who were never "overvalued prospects". I think most anyone who seriously follows the team will see through that.

People are still mad about giving up each one of them lol

Edited May 1, 2015 by rick zombo

[lomekian 201]

While Holland's recent FA record and his over- over-ripening count against him, it is instructive that all other teams or GMs being cited as superior alternatives went through 4-6 years minimum of propping up the rankings, picking in the top 10 and taking part in massive fire sales. While there is little merit in pursuing mediocrity, as long as this team is owned by the prince of pizza, the objective will be to make the playoffs.

Its worth noting, that on top of the success of the unevenly weighted pre-salary cap era, Detroit has the longest playoff streak of the salary cap era, and with a roster of a grand total of 3 players who preceded the lockout. While the incredible skill levels of those three have been key, you still have to find 20 other guys minimum every year.

We are fast approaching the keep the mediocrity going or burn it down question, but while D & Z are still even at their current diminished levels, that question will have to be deferred. You don't piss trade away one-team potential HOF players at this point of their careers unless they want you to, particularly not if you are team whose primary attraction for FAs is loyalty, respect and a possible job upon retirement. And this is especially the case when only couple of different FAs and better luck with injuries to playoff type players away from a credible playoff run.

[number9 3,297]

Jarnkrok - constantly compared to Zetterberg

Zetterberg was a rookie of the year finalist. Jarnkrok spent his rookie season as third/fourth line plug. They compare Larkin to Toews. I think comparisons in these cases are used to explain a players style, rather than their ceiling

Backman - at one point the highest rated defensive prospect we had

Bad attitude. Like Ryno and Dick Axelsson. We know how they panned out.

Janmark - one of the best young players in the SEL

I believe that's actually Axel Holmstrom. His development made Janmark disposable.

But sure, pretend like they were scrubs who were never "overvalued prospects". I think most anyone who seriously follows the team will see through that.

People are still mad about giving up each one of them lol

Is that not my point though? They were all overvalued prospects who were traded

GMR, feel free to slink away

[rick zombo 3,739]

Is that not my point though? They were all overvalued prospects who were traded

GMR, feel free to slink away

Ahh. My bad, I misunderstood.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Is that not my point though? They were all overvalued prospects who were traded

GMR, feel free to slink away

I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best.

I'll wait to see if those guys you listed amount to anything special in the NHL before I feel like we gave something important away.

People here have a tendency to overrate our GR players. Just remember, Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in juniors.

Edited May 1, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kipwinger 8,521]

I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best.

I'll wait to see if those guys you listed amount to anything special in the NHL before I feel like we gave something important away.

People here have a tendency to overrate our GR players. Just remember, Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in juniors.

I'm genuinely not trying to be snarky here, I'm just trying to clarify. Do you think that Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser's ceilings are 2nd/3rd line, and 2nd pair?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'm genuinely not trying to be snarky here, I'm just trying to clarify. Do you think that Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser's ceilings are 2nd/3rd line, and 2nd pair?

You mean in terms of quality or in terms of where Babcock will play them?

Babcock had Abdelkader on the top line, but I don't think he's a top line player around the league. Same thing with Ericsson being played on the top pair.

Edited May 1, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kipwinger 8,521]

You mean in terms of quality or in terms of where Babcock will play them?

Babcock had Abdelkader on the top line, but I don't think he's a top line player around the league. Same thing with Ericsson being played on the top pair.

Ok, but I didn't ask about Abby or Ericsson. I'm asking about Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser because they were our most heralded young players, and you previously said "I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best".

I'm serious just wondering if you're including them in there, or are you talking about our lesser prospect. Because you'd have a point with Pulkkinen or Smith. But I think no matter how you cut it, Tatar and Nyquist are legit top six forwards, and Dekeyser is a legit top four defenseman. And considering they're only just finishing up their sophmore years, I don't think it's a stretch to think they'll continue to improve their games as well.

[Ekmanc 586]

Dekeyser wasn't "our prospect" at any time.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Ok, but I didn't ask about Abby or Ericsson. I'm asking about Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser because they were our most heralded young players, and you previously said "I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best".

I'm serious just wondering if you're including them in there, or are you talking about our lesser prospect. Because you'd have a point with Pulkkinen or Smith. But I think no matter how you cut it, Tatar and Nyquist are legit top six forwards, and Dekeyser is a legit top four defenseman. And considering they're only just finishing up their sophmore years, I don't think it's a stretch to think they'll continue to improve their games as well.

Some people don't know how to gauge talent. Some other poster on here thinks Tatar and Nyquist are 4th line grinders and Jurco is a top line player.

We should just fire everyone, and let LGW run the team.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Some people don't know how to gauge talent. Some other poster on here thinks Tatar and Nyquist are 4th line grinders and Jurco is a top line player.

We should just fire everyone, and let LGW run the team.

I wasn't really trying to criticize GMRwings as much as figure out which players he was talking about. Certainly I'd agree with him that some of our more highly regarded young talent (Smith, Pulkinnen, Jurco) have struggled to live up to those expectations. But other young players (Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, Sheahan) have been better than what was probably expected of them.

In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be, but it's worth noting that Nyquist and Tatar have had as good (or better) regular and post seasons than Datsyuk and Zetterberg had at comparable stages of their careers. So I wouldn't completely shut the door on some of our guys developing into first rate hockey players, regardless of how unlikely it might seem.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

I wasn't really trying to criticize GMRwings as much as figure out which players he was talking about. Certainly I'd agree with him that some of our more highly regarded young talent (Smith, Pulkinnen, Jurco) have struggled to live up to those expectations. But other young players (Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, Sheahan) have been better than what was probably expected of them.

In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be, but it's worth noting that Nyquist and Tatar have had as good (or better) regular and post seasons than Datsyuk and Zetterberg had at comparable stages of their careers. So I wouldn't completely shut the door on some of our guys developing into first rate hockey players, regardless of how unlikely it might seem.

I wasn't either. I was merely pointing out a lot of posters on here don't know how to gauge talent. They are either 1st line elite superstars or they are 4th line grinders. All I keep reading right now is "We don't have a superstar after Z and D are gone" which is 4-5 years away.

Edited May 1, 2015 by darkmanx

[gcom007 1,465]

I wasn't really trying to criticize GMRwings as much as figure out which players he was talking about. Certainly I'd agree with him that some of our more highly regarded young talent (Smith, Pulkinnen, Jurco) have struggled to live up to those expectations. But other young players (Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, Sheahan) have been better than what was probably expected of them.

In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be, but it's worth noting that Nyquist and Tatar have had as good (or better) regular and post seasons than Datsyuk and Zetterberg had at comparable stages of their careers. So I wouldn't completely shut the door on some of our guys developing into first rate hockey players, regardless of how unlikely it might seem.

Jurco, yeah, I get that. Smith too. But Pulk hasn't had much of a chance here yet. And you could say the same even for Jurco on some level. Don't get me wrong, I think we overvalue a lot of guys too, but I think there's a chance some of these guys stand to come out looking better than they do right now over the next couple years.

That said, I do think there's something to be said for moving prospects for NHL-ready talent if you can. I'm not one of those whining about all the guys we gave up, and if it meant adding significant pieces to round out this team, I could stand to lose some of our better talent coming up. It's part of the game. You hang onto everybody, you're bound to get burnt, and vice versa. Holland could stand to find more of a middle ground than he has and we might have a more well-rounded defensive group.

[kipwinger 8,521]

I wasn't either. I was merely pointing out a lot of posters on here don't know how to gauge talent. They are either 1st line elite superstars or they are 4th line grinders. All I keep reading right now is "We don't have a superstar after Z and D are gone" which is 4-5 years away.

It's also worth noting that lots of teams have lots of success, without having Datsyuk and Zetterberg type talent on their team. At one point during the late 2000s, those were the two very best players in the world. Yet it only translated into one Cup.

I'm far less concerned with finding another Datsyuk or Zetterberg, than I am with finding an organizational make-up which doesn't require a 2008 era Pavel Datsyuk or Henrik Zetterberg to be successful. If one or two of our guys turn out to be that good, then great, but I don't want that to be our only hope of reaching the Cup again. And thankfully, I don't think it is.

[gcom007 1,465]

I wasn't either. I was merely pointing out a lot of posters on here don't know how to gauge talent. They are either 1st line elite superstars or they are 4th line grinders. All I keep reading right now is "We don't have a superstar after Z and D are gone" which is 4-5 years away.

I'd say more like 2-3 years away. And if Z doesn't show a serious uptick in his late-season game moving forward, you might as well consider what Z stands for in terms of points gone sooner. I hope we get 4-5 years of leadership at least out of Z though. At worst, I think he still stands to bring a lot of value to this team.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

I'd say more like 2-3 years away. And if Z doesn't show a serious uptick in his late-season game moving forward, you might as well consider what Z stands for in terms of points gone sooner. I hope we get 4-5 years of leadership at least out of Z though. At worst, I think he still stands to bring a lot of value to this team.

Maybe I was being generous by saying 4-5 years, your right 2-3 years is more realistic. We have a bunch of Kids that will be coming up in that time that could be surprises. AA, Mantha, Larkin, Sproul, Jensen. We will obviously be drafting pretty good in that time frame as well, which is exactly where I trust Holland the most - he was a Pro scout after all, he knows how to evaluate players and skill. Then we have free agency where we can pickup a few players, hopefully some higher ranked FA for once but I am not one to blame Holland for a FA not wanting to come here like most people.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Jurco, yeah, I get that. Smith too. But Pulk hasn't had much of a chance here yet. And you could say the same even for Jurco on some level. Don't get me wrong, I think we overvalue a lot of guys too, but I think there's a chance some of these guys stand to come out looking better than they do right now over the next couple years.

That said, I do think there's something to be said for moving prospects for NHL-ready talent if you can. I'm not one of those whining about all the guys we gave up, and if it meant adding significant pieces to round out this team, I could stand to lose some of our better talent coming up. It's part of the game. You hang onto everybody, you're bound to get burnt, and vice versa. Holland could stand to find more of a middle ground than he has and we might have a more well-rounded defensive group.

I agree. I said as much above. "In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be".

As far as moving prospects, I'm not opposed to it. But I'm not in favor of moving prospects for marginally better talent, on much worse contracts. The good thing about hanging onto homegrown players is that you can manage the evolution of their salaries a little bit easier because of restricted free agency, bridge contracts, and (hopefully) hometown discounts. Which is good for the team's cap situation. So unless it's a slam dunk, and the guy you're trading for is WAY better, it's usually best to just keep your guys.

Honestly, I'd rather see Holland overpay in free agency than overpay at the trade deadline.

[gcom007 1,465]

I agree. I said as much above. "In all cases I think it's too early to tell just how good they'll be".

As far as moving prospects, I'm not opposed to it. But I'm not in favor of moving prospects for marginally better talent, on much worse contracts. The good thing about hanging onto homegrown players is that you can manage the evolution of their salaries a little bit easier because of restricted free agency, bridge contracts, and (hopefully) hometown discounts. Which is good for the team's cap situation. So unless it's a slam dunk, and the guy you're trading for is WAY better, it's usually best to just keep your guys.

Honestly, I'd rather see Holland overpay in free agency than overpay at the trade deadline.

Sorry, missed that about "too early." And I definitely agree, I'd rather overpay in free-agency as well. I just wish we'd target more accessible guys and overpay them. I mean, hell, what's the worst that could happen? Another Uwe Krupp or Stephen Weiss? It's not like it'd be the first time... I'm just really sick of having to pick up scraps in the weeks following the start of free agency because we missed out on the big name or two we were chasing.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Ok, but I didn't ask about Abby or Ericsson. I'm asking about Tatar, Nyquist, and Dekeyser because they were our most heralded young players, and you previously said "I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best".

I'm serious just wondering if you're including them in there, or are you talking about our lesser prospect. Because you'd have a point with Pulkkinen or Smith. But I think no matter how you cut it, Tatar and Nyquist are legit top six forwards, and Dekeyser is a legit top four defenseman. And considering they're only just finishing up their sophmore years, I don't think it's a stretch to think they'll continue to improve their games as well.

It's hard to bring up Tatar and Nyquist in a positive light after these last few playoffs. They're old enough now where I wanted to see them take the bull by the horns. Instead, all I saw is that we're in trouble when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retire. Of course, I may be wrong, but you're not right either. We haven't yet seen that these two players are top tier players that can carry us in big moments. They need a star player around them, like a Datsyuk, Giroux, Crosby type for them to excel. Even then they haven't done so in the last two playoffs with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. To me, they look like followers and not leaders.

Dekeyser is a defensive defenseman that can be a top 4 guy. He's not a GR player that people have raved about, because his background had nothing to do with GR. I was talking about Smith and not Dekeyser.

The jury is out on Larkin, Mantha and Sproul. We'll see.

Edited May 1, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kipwinger 8,521]

It's hard to bring up Tatar and Nyquist in a positive light after these last few playoffs. They're old enough now where I wanted to see them take the bull by the horns. Instead, all I saw is that we're in trouble when Datsyuk and Zetterberg retire. Of course, I may be wrong, but you're not right either. We haven't yet seen that these two players are top tier players that can carry us in big moments. They need a star player around them, like a Datsyuk, Giroux, Crosby type for them to excel. Even then they haven't done so in the last two playoffs with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. To me, they look like followers and not leaders.

Dekeyser is a defensive defenseman that can be a top 4 guy. He's not a GR player that people have raved about, because his background had nothing to do with GR. I was talking about Smith and not Dekeyser.

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats).

I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

[MTU_Huskies963 398]

I will say this about the NHL it is becoming really difficult to pull off a blockbuster trade, there is so much parity in this league half of the teams don't want to make a trade. It's almost becoming like the NFL. Everyone just trades draft picks and over the hill players. If you do want to make a trade you have to trade away 3 good farm talents and a first round to just to get 1 player lol

That being said I do feel that Holland is good at the drafting aspect of being a GM, but can't work the free agency or trade market that well. Loyalty will be the death of this team.

Edited May 1, 2015 by MTU_Huskies963

[gcom007 1,465]

While I don't disagree with your logic, I will say this. Tatar and Nyquist have outperformed Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both regular season and playoffs) at similar points in their careers. Dats and Z weren't very good in the playoffs at all during their first few years. And they were about the same ages when they came into the league (arguably both with MORE experience than Nyquist or Tats).

I agree, there's nothing to guarantee that either of these guys will be stars. But based on the information we have, and observation and comparison to our last two stars, I don't think it's out of the question either. At the very least it's premature to think these two guys are don't improving given their respective ages and experience levels. Consistent 65-70 point seasons is not out of the question for either of them. Which isn't super star talent, but isn't anything to scoff at either.

I will say that Datsyuk was dealing with some pretty serious injuries in the playoffs early in his career that didn't help him one bit.

[number9 3,297]

I've been listening to people for years tell me how great our prospects are, and they turn out to be decent 2nd pair defensemen and 3rd line players, at best.

I'll wait to see if those guys you listed amount to anything special in the NHL before I feel like we gave something important away.

People here have a tendency to overrate our GR players. Just remember, Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals in juniors.

What are you talking about?

You said Holland needs to trade our overvalued prospects. I cited 3 examples where he did just that, and recently. One of your less clever side steps my friend.

[kipwinger 8,521]

I will say that Datsyuk was dealing with some pretty serious injuries in the playoffs early in his career that didn't help him one bit.

Unless he had cancer, it's not much of an excuse. He had 3 goals and 9 assists in 37 games over three post seasons.

Zetterberg had 9 goals and 2 assists in 22 games over three post seasons.

And BOTH of them were playing on a a team chocked full of hall of fame talent.

If people are going to talk about Nyquist and Tatar's "struggles", or talk about how they have to be surrounded by stars to look good, they need only look at Dats and Z's careers as evidence of exactly what that means for long term projections.

There is a tendency among some Wings fans to act like Dats and Zetterberg were superstars the minute the came into the league, and that everybody knew all along that they'd be great. But it isn't true. When they came into the league they looked like Tatar and Nyquist do now...except maybe not quite as good.

Edited May 1, 2015 by kipwinger