At What Point Does Holland Deserve Blame?

[lomekian 201]

You obviously didn't get the subtle joke. To me, those three guys were the same person put into one. Wouldn't know them if they walked into my room. I never thought they'd be anything special. Apparently, neither did Holland. Also, we didn't get anything more than rentals for them.

But yes, it was a step in the right direction to trade a few prospects and Holland did make those trades. I wish he took chances like this earlier. Just need better luck and intuition on who we take those chances on. Legwand and Cole didn't pan out.

I think you are being overly dismissive of the Swedish trio. All 3 may yet make decent NHL careers, and Jarnkrok and Backman were very highly thought of until they started to make noise about not being willing to do their two year stint in the AHL.

The maximum upside for all 3 is 2nd liner's in the NHL, and to my mind Jarnkrok would be ready for 3rd line duty here, but ultimately they were traded due to their unwillingness to do their time, and because all were made expendable by others passing them on our prospect chart.

And they were felt to have value by other GMs..how soon did Jarnkrok get into the preds team? Sadly the players they were traded for turned out to be rentals, but both expressed a desire to stick around before things went sour. Legwand seemed to suddenly lose a step he hasn't got back, and Cole was looking a great fit before injury struck. If the latter can get fit he may come back at the right price?

Either way, I agree with the overall sentiment. When prospects who still have some value reach 21-22 and demonstrate that they aren't going to make the top 6 here any time soon, they should be viewed as expendable in the right deal. Like most, I was never happy with the Legwand deal, but appreciate it might have kept the streak going. The cole deal made much more sense, and until his injury looked a good one. But really if we are trading or even in the higher end FA market, we should be looking at guys no older than 32-33, unless they are coming for peanuts or are still great (like Alfie).

[lomekian 201]

Comparing Z & D to Nyquist and Tatar is not helping anyone.

Zetterberg took his great leap forward at the age of 19/20, and by 22 was a more complete player than either of our new kids, and came straight to the NHL on a stacked roster.

Similar with Dats, who arrived with less hurrah, but his team-mates (especially one Brett Hull) were very vocal in saying that he would be a star.

Of course, both had the advantage of being able to develop under the radar to a degree due to the fact that that roster was bolstered by 6 guys who finished with comfortably over 1000 points, and Larionov who would have done had he been allowed over here before he was. And Chelli. And the grind line. And Homer. Apart from the bottom two pairing on D and in net that was as good a roster as any of us have seen. I would imagine, if Tats and Nike were 3rd liners on a stacked outfit, the transition would be easier.

But ultimately anyone hoping our new euro kids will match the twins is only making a rod for their backs. As I've said elsewhere, if you want a comparison, they are basically slightly more talented versions of Slava Kozlov without the same playoff touch. Very good complimentary players who are unlikely to ever be core stars. But for a mid 2nd and a 5th, that's already far more than this organisation has the right to expect.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

...make a deal for Phanuef and then sign Franson. Or Martin.

[Nightfall 871]

...make a deal for Phanuef and then sign Franson. Or Martin.

Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season. Now, if Toronto eats $3.5 million of his salary, I am ok with it.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season. Now, if Toronto eats $3.5 million of his salary, I am ok with it.

If they ate that much, the cost to get him would price us out on him..

Phaneuf at $5m would probably still be pricey.

[Guest Playmaker]

You're overplaying your hand. Zetterberg was on the Swedish Olympic team as the only non-NHL player before he joined the Wings. Obviously someone thought he was pretty notable lol.

Jonathan Ericcson's brother was the only non NHL player on the last Swedish Olympic team. So it isn't necessarily an indicator of greatness.

If they ate that much, the cost to get him would price us out on him..

Phaneuf at $5m would probably still be pricey.

For me, taking Weiss is more than enough and eating salary isn't necessary. Trading his 5 million dollar salary and adding 2 million for a top 4 defenseman seems like a win/win situation. Not saying I'm totally high on Phaneuf, but they have to find a way to rid themselves of Weiss. Kind of like the Tigers shedding Prince Fielder and taking a "bad" contract with Kinsler, who turned out to fill a big need at second base.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

You're overplaying your hand. Zetterberg was on the Swedish Olympic team as the only non-NHL player before he joined the Wings. Obviously someone thought he was pretty notable lol.

As someone else pointed out Ericsson's brother was on the last Swedish olympic team. Also, since the olympics are only every 4 years all 4 players didn't have the same opportunity. Both Nyquist and Tatar played in the olympics during their first year with the wings. If the olympics had taken place a year earlier it's possible both would have still been chosen. Tatar for sure would have been chosen for Slovakia. Zetterberg played in the Olympics just a year before joining the Wings so then they would be in the same situation.

This comparison is pointless, though, - we know they're in different situations. There's a chance Tatar and Nyquist can become dominant players. They have a ways to go - let's hope they get there. Regardless they are quite good right now and just need to keep moving ahead and prove themselves in the next playoffs.

[number9 3,297]

You obviously didn't get the subtle joke. To me, those three guys were the same person put into one. Wouldn't know them if they walked into my room. I never thought they'd be anything special. Apparently, neither did Holland. Also, we didn't get anything more than rentals for them.

But yes, it was a step in the right direction to trade a few prospects and Holland did make those trades. I wish he took chances like this earlier. Just need better luck and intuition on who we take those chances on. Legwand and Cole didn't pan out.

What... cause they're Swedish?

Your assessment of prospects is second only to Holland. Even Hakan thought those guys were good.

Fact is all three were among our highest ranked/valued prospects. Jarnkrok was even #1 for a time. So you can stop acting like we traded a bunch of Philip Hudons away.

He traded those overvalued prospects away these past few years. So your original point about needing to do that... well, its already been done.

[kliq 3,755]

Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season. Now, if Toronto eats $3.5 million of his salary, I am ok with it.

Your dreaming if you think this would ever happen. My gut tells me that if they trade him to us, they eat a very small amount, but take a large contract back (ie. Eriksson or Weiss).

[Mckinley25 677]

I know there was talk of it at the deadline, but why would Toronto want Weiss? It seems like he'd be impossible to move at this point.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I know there was talk of it at the deadline, but why would Toronto want Weiss? It seems like he'd be impossible to move at this point.

Brings them closer to the cap floor if they do get out of their bigger contracts, gives them a warm body who has experience playing for a crap team, he was a decent top six center maybe he can regain some of that, and just to get rid of phaneufs contract.

[Holmstrom96 347]

How do you define "competitive"? Making the playoffs every year and losing in the early round?

If so, then I agree that we're competitive.

Since when do we need to measure team success against Edmonton and Buffalo?

How do you define "competitive"? Winning the Stanley Cup every year?

Holland's Wings are competitive. They win more than they lose. They go to the playoffs, EVERY YEAR. They're just a couple players away from a championship team.

There are 30 teams. 30 GMs.

53% chance of making the playoffs

27% chance of making it to the second round

13% chance of making it to the conference finals

7% chance of making it to the cup finals

3% chance of winning the cup

Under Holland since '97, this is how we've done:

100% - Made Playoffs

64% - made it to second round

31% - made it to conference finals

25% - made it to Stanley Cup finals

19% - won Stanley Cup

It's time for people to chill. You can't always win, but damn, we sure do win more than we don't.

[Nightfall 871]

Your dreaming if you think this would ever happen. My gut tells me that if they trade him to us, they eat a very small amount, but take a large contract back (ie. Eriksson or Weiss).

Still doesn't change the fact that Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season.

[kliq 3,755]

Still doesn't change the fact that Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season.

The 7 million is not a problem, its the term that is the problem. Phaneuf right now is probably worth 7 mil, but in 6 years he wont even be close.

[Guest Playmaker]

If it is true as it was reported at the deadline by Bob McKenzie and others that Toronto had no problem taking Weiss in the deal, it makes that 7 million dollar contract a whole lot more palatable for me. Of course he won't be at the top of his game in 6 years, but that's with every contract. The variable here is Babcock. A new coach might be able to work with Weiss, give him a chance, play him at center and he may regain some sense of his old form. But as it stands now, Weiss is a 5 million dollar 3rd line winger at best and a full time black ace at worse making 5 million for another 3 years with his value sinking quickly. Give his job to Baby Chicken Parm who seems serviceable or Pulkinnen or Callahan and now you have a top 4 defenseman for a net 2 million bucks.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

How do you define "competitive"? Winning the Stanley Cup every year?

Holland's Wings are competitive. They win more than they lose. They go to the playoffs, EVERY YEAR. They're just a couple players away from a championship team.

There are 30 teams. 30 GMs.

53% chance of making the playoffs

27% chance of making it to the second round

13% chance of making it to the conference finals

7% chance of making it to the cup finals

3% chance of winning the cup

Under Holland since '97, this is how we've done:

100% - Made Playoffs

64% - made it to second round

31% - made it to conference finals

25% - made it to Stanley Cup finals

19% - won Stanley Cup

It's time for people to chill. You can't always win, but damn, we sure do win more than we don't.

Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

[AtomicPunk 296]

Holland deserves blame for sticking with over the hill players (Weiss, Cleary, Samuelsson, Cole, Zidlicky etc.) WAY too long and not finding the players who are on the cusp of blossoming and acquiring them. Usually by the time a player becomes a UFA, they are over halfway done with their career and we pretty much know what they are going to be. Younger players aren't worried about self-preservation and "life after hockey" and they give you 100%. A player who is worried about his health long term and his investment portfolio might give you 95% but he is always subconsciously holding something back and being afraid of getting injured. Brendan Shanahan mentioned this in an interview I remembered and I thought it was an outstanding insight. And no, I don't have a link to it. It was in a thing called a newspaper.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Still doesn't change the fact that Phaneuf isn't worth 7 million a season.

0% chance Phaneuf gets dealt for his full contract to any team

Leafs will have to suck it up and pay part of his salary

[frankgrimes 1,836]

0% chance Phaneuf gets dealt for his full contract to any team

Leafs will have to suck it up and pay part of his salary

Well the Leafs can always take back another bad contract to even the caphit. As much as people like to question Phaneuf he is tasked to play over his capabilities in Toronto I honestly believe he would do well here.

Which other realistic and not too expensive option is available ? Boychuck is re-signed and I highly doubt the Hawks will make Seabrook available anytime soon.

[Barrie 900]

Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

Yea I don't understand what fans expect. If people want to cheer for a team that signs UFA's, then they should switch teams. Is there Red Wings fans out there that still don't understand how the organization builds a team? I think it's obvious.

[Guest Playmaker]

Holland deserves blame for sticking with over the hill players (Weiss, Cleary, Samuelsson, Cole, Zidlicky etc.) WAY too long and not finding the players who are on the cusp of blossoming and acquiring them. Usually by the time a player becomes a UFA, they are over halfway done with their career and we pretty much know what they are going to be. Younger players aren't worried about self-preservation and "life after hockey" and they give you 100%. A player who is worried about his health long term and his investment portfolio might give you 95% but he is always subconsciously holding something back and being afraid of getting injured. Brendan Shanahan mentioned this in an interview I remembered and I thought it was an outstanding insight. And no, I don't have a link to it. It was in a thing called a newspaper.

Okay, so all he has to do is acquire young high level players on the cusp of greatness, pay them what they're worth, fit them all in under the salary cap and give them all the ice time they want. SMH, why didn't Kenny Holland think of this first!?!?! I mean, get real. Every team just can't wait to trade blossoming stars to the Red Wings. No doubt, too, that they'd take Cleary, Zid or a 5th round pick for said players.

Not sure how he could have stuck with Cole and Zidlicky too long as he just acquired them at the trade deadline and Cole only played 7 games before being injured. Weiss has had injury problems since he was signed as the #1 free agent available that year and hasn't been given ample opportunity by Babs to right the ship. So I'm sure other teams are lining up and will give the Wings all those up and coming hungry young stars for him. Cleary was kept around too long, but he rarely cracked the line up this year, and wasn't a horrible liability when he was in.

When the Wings won the Cup in 2002, they weren't old, they were experienced, savvy veterans who knew how to win.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Playmaker

[kliq 3,755]

Some people don't understand parity and what the salary cap does. They can't get over the fact this isn't pre 2005 anymore.

Boston was the president trophy winners last year. Missed the playoffs.

LA Kings won the Stanley Cup last year. Missed the playoffs.

Wow, must really suck to be a Wings fan....

Completely agree. The Wings are the model that the other NHL teams try to follow. This is why I find it funny when Wings fans have temper tantrums because we haven't won a cup in 7 YEARS! 29 other fan bases just look at us and role their eyes.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Blame Holland? Absolutely.

He deserves a ton of credit for supplying us with the deepest crop of prospects in the league and great cap position.

Kudos Holland.

[number9 3,297]

Blame Holland? Absolutely.

He deserves a ton of credit for supplying us with the deepest crop of prospects in the league and great cap position.

Kudos Holland.

When you're under the microscope it doesn't matter how much good you do, one small mistake and you're "losing your touch" two small mistakes and "OMG FIRE HIM NOW."

Nobody's perfect, but Holland's closer than most.

Edited May 4, 2015 by number9

[Buppy 1,720]

Well the Leafs can always take back another bad contract to even the caphit. As much as people like to question Phaneuf he is tasked to play over his capabilities in Toronto I honestly believe he would do well here.

Which other realistic and not too expensive option is available ? Boychuck is re-signed and I highly doubt the Hawks will make Seabrook available anytime soon.

If we get Phaneuf he'll most likely be in the same situation, but older and probably playing on his off side.

Even considering that, he might be the best d-man available.