Who is the coach next season?

[Guest Playmaker]

I think this is one of those be careful what you wish for scenarios. It reminds me of the Tigers situation. Fans couldn't get Leyland to leave fast enough. He was old, he sucked, relying on past success. Bring in the new guy...same result. But if they only still had Leyland............ As Babs himself said, sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

That said, I think he will want some sort of player personnel input if he stays. He's mentioned enough times in the past few seasons about the lack of talent and depth, and he has seemed to go out of his way to put players that Holland has brought in like Tootoo and Weiss in the doghouse with no way out.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Nit picking my ass! We don't have anyone remotely close to Datsyuk's level coming up, and that's absolutely a problem. Babcock was being entirely realistic and addressing a very real problem that this team is going to be facing in the coming years. We do have a lot of good young players coming up, but do we have anyone even close to Datsyuk's level? I think people really, really, really undervalue how important Datsyuk is to this team.

As I said before, we're going to learn a lot more about Holland in the coming years, because it's one thing to lose Lidstrom when you still have true superstars in Dats and Z to build your team around. But as of now, it's highly unlikely that we're going to have that luxury when Dats and Z retire, and with Z likely slowing down faster, it's going to be all the more pressing of an issue.

Nothing Babcock said was unrealistic and unwarranted. We have some serious issues to deal with, and I don't think Babcock wants to wait until Dats and Z retire to hunt for a solution. And yes, I think Babcock is staying.

I agree. All these great young players people raved about for years turned out to be nothing more than serviceable players who aren't that useful in big games. Smith is not special. Tatar and Nyquist aren't special.

Mrazek may be special but a good young goalie is hardly an anomaly in today's league. Besides, he can't score goals or play defense.

I just hope people are right about Mantha and Larkin.

[Guest Playmaker]

Right, because franchise players just grow on trees and can be had in the 6th round or later. Shame on Holland for not finding a HOF'er every single year. All he can come up with are a couple of schmucks who can score 25+ goals in a low scoring league.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Right, because franchise players just grow on trees and can be had in the 6th round or later. Shame on Holland for not finding a HOF'er every single year. All he can come up with are a couple of schmucks who can score 25+ goals in a low scoring league.

Well, you should read my post in the other thread. We need to start trading some prospects for more established NHL players. Not the whole farm team, but just more open to trade. We're like Japan right now before Perry invaded them.

[lomekian 201]

I agree. All these great young players people raved about for years turned out to be nothing more than serviceable players who aren't that useful in big games. Smith is not special. Tatar and Nyquist aren't special.

Mrazek may be special but a good young goalie is hardly an anomaly in today's league. Besides, he can't score goals or play defense.

I just hope people are right about Mantha and Larkin.

To be fair, even when the hype was it its greatest, Smith was projected as top-4 guy with the ability to put up 30-40 points, which might not be a stretch if he actually got any PP time, and in a more run-and-gun (and probably less successful) team, i think he'd produce more.

Same with Tatar and Nyquist...for a long time they were seen as possible 2/3 line guys, and it was only really the goose's goal output last year that gave anyone genuine hope beyond that. Certainly RWC (RIP) managed to predict most of the kids that have come through remarkably well, such as Howard being a solid but not brilliant starter, Marchenko being a good 5-6 guy and Sheahan being a 2/3 Center. These are the Kozlovs of old rather than the Federovs...very good players who are ultimately expendable in a good trade.

The only real disappointments regarding serious projections of prospects I read were Kindl, Grigorenko and Emmerton. Kindl has all the skill to be a top 4 guy, but sadly none of the calm under pressure, fortitude or physical courage. Grigs never got back after the crash and underestimated what it took to make the NHL. Emmerton was only ever ok at a lot of things, without being NHL standard at anything.

Re the coaching issue, Bab's is clearly an excellent coach as squeezing a lot of not much, but too many of our current younger players and potential assets would be better suited to a different system. So either the roster needs some major re-shaping or a new coach may be for the best. Certainly we will not maximise Smith, Kindl, Weiss, Pulks, Nyquist, Tatar in Babcock's systems.

If he stays, he's a good enough coach to keep this team going, and the kids 2-3 years away are much more to his taste. If he leaves, some of the current roster may flourish, but overall results may suffer a little.

[barabbas16 499]

I think this is one of those be careful what you wish for scenarios. It reminds me of the Tigers situation. Fans couldn't get Leyland to leave fast enough. He was old, he sucked, relying on past success. Bring in the new guy...same result. But if they only still had Leyland............ As Babs himself said, sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

That said, I think he will want some sort of player personnel input if he stays. He's mentioned enough times in the past few seasons about the lack of talent and depth, and he has seemed to go out of his way to put players that Holland has brought in like Tootoo and Weiss in the doghouse with no way out.

He was right. Filppula is better than Weiss.

[barabbas16 499]

OMG Datsyuk and Zetterberg are getting old and there aren't any prospects that are as good! Get some! Now! 3, 2, 1, get them! Do you have them yet!?

[ben_usmc 253]

I think this is one of those be careful what you wish for scenarios. It reminds me of the Tigers situation. Fans couldn't get Leyland to leave fast enough. He was old, he sucked, relying on past success. Bring in the new guy...same result. But if they only still had Leyland............ As Babs himself said, sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

That said, I think he will want some sort of player personnel input if he stays. He's mentioned enough times in the past few seasons about the lack of talent and depth, and he has seemed to go out of his way to put players that Holland has brought in like Tootoo and Weiss in the doghouse with no way out.

They said on the radio 97.1 Weiss was one of Babcock choices. So was Cleary

[number9 3,297]

They said on the radio 97.1 Weiss was one of Babcock choices. So was Cleary

And that's why if he leaves for a different team where he has control over his roster it will be a disaster. There's a reason managers, who can make unbiased and unemotional decisions about personnel, exist. This team would be full of Clearys and Glendenings without Holland.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

The question if Babs should return depends on how you see the teams recent performance. If it is overarchivieng you're all for Babs to return, if you feel it's underarchiving you don't. I'm somewhat on the fence. 10 years is a long time and those who say that the message of a coach directing the team for such a long time might become stale are not wrong. Add to that some decisions that can only be described as headscrathers and a part of me wouldn't mind seeing Babcock gone.

Then on the other hand there is this young team in transition that makes the playoff every year and usually puts Stanley Cup favorites on the brink of elimination without

a.) a legit second line center

b.) a 30 goal scorer

c.) a second no.1 defender

d.) Cary Price like goaltending .

You can question if some of these points are because of Babs coaching style and that players like Kindl or Smith could perform better under a more offensive minded coach. But you can't just disregard the fact that Babcock is heralded as one of the best if not the best coach by people that understand a lot more about hockey than I do. In the end I prefer Babs to come back but wouldn't be shocked if he leaves. It would certainly be entertaining to watch what a different coach can do with our roster.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

And that's why if he leaves for a different team where he has control over his roster it will be a disaster. There's a reason managers, who can make unbiased and unemotional decisions about personnel, exist. This team would be full of Clearys and Glendenings without Holland.

Has he ever said he wants control over a roster? I can see how it's natural for coaches to want more control, but Babcock seems to seek out opposing viewpoints and people who bring in new ideas. It's his management and hiring style with his assistant coaches, so I'm not sure it's a given he would even want GM powers.

I dont' put much faith in what St. James says, but this is apparently a direct quote.

Helene St. James @HeleneStJames · 16m16 minutes ago

"I don't want to be a general manager. I'm a coach" Mike Babcock

[kipwinger 8,524]

Has he ever said he wants control over a roster? I can see how it's natural for coaches to want more control, but Babcock seems to seek out opposing viewpoints and people who bring in new ideas. It's his management and hiring style with his assistant coaches, so I'm not sure it's a given he would even want GM powers.

I dont' put much faith in what St. James says, but this is apparently a direct quote.

Helene St. James @HeleneStJames · 16m16 minutes ago

"I don't want to be a general manager. I'm a coach" Mike Babcock

You're right. He's been pretty consistent in seeking out alternative viewpoints, at least since I've been paying attention. But I don't think Number9's comments were as much directed at anything Babs has said or done, but more toward those who seem to think that having more roster input will be a determining factor in his decision making.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You're right. He's been pretty consistent in seeking out alternative viewpoints, at least since I've been paying attention. But I don't think Number9's comments were as much directed at anything Babs has said or done, but more toward those who seem to think that having more roster input will be a determining factor in his decision making.

True. I wasn't so much refuting what he said as just commenting on what has been a common theme about Babcock's potential new teams. There's been a lot of speculation about him going somewhere that he could act as GM as well but I'm not sure what it's based on anything other than the natural assumption that most coaches want more control over their roster.

I'm just not sure that's his style.

I mean, he hired an assistant coach who a few years prior basically wanted to climb onto his bench and kick his ass. The guy apparently thrives on conflict

[rick zombo 3,739]

True. I wasn't so much refuting what he said as just commenting on what has been a common theme about Babcock's potential new teams. There's been a lot of speculation about him going somewhere that he could act as GM as well but I'm not sure what it's based on anything other than the natural assumption that most coaches want more control over their roster.

I'm just not sure that's his style.

I mean, he hired an assistant coach who a few years prior basically wanted to climb onto his bench and kick his ass. The guy apparently thrives on conflict

He liked Granato's "compete level".

[kipwinger 8,524]

True. I wasn't so much refuting what he said as just commenting on what has been a common theme about Babcock's potential new teams. There's been a lot of speculation about him going somewhere that he could act as GM as well but I'm not sure what it's based on anything other than the natural assumption that most coaches want more control over their roster.

I'm just not sure that's his style.

I mean, he hired an assistant coach who a few years prior basically wanted to climb onto his bench and kick his ass. The guy apparently thrives on conflict

I knew there was a reason I liked Tony Granato lol.

[amato 3,210]

Babcock expects decision in about 10 days as far as his future with the red wings goes. Doesn't know anything yet.

Nick Cotsonika

✔@cotsonika

Babcock reiterated he doesn't have skill set to be GM. Not interested in it. "Do I want to have input? Yes. Do I have input here? Lots."

1:01 PM - 1 May 2015

Chuck Pleiness @wingsfrontman

Babcock: Says people are trying to read into everything I say. Kenny and I haven't even met. We meet. I'll have a better handle.

12:54 PM - 1 May 2015

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/01/babcock-to-meet-with-holland-expects-to-make-red-wings-decision-in-10-days/

[Barrie 900]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/with-or-without-babcock-red-wings-are-heading-in-the-right-direction/

I think it's funny some members of the media are saying maybe we should have missed the playoffs the last few years so we could reload. Without a pick in the 1st half of the 1st round the last 24 years, we still have the 9th best crop of prospects over all, and 6 individuals in the top 75.

Replacing Datsyuk is like replacing Lidstrom, you can't. I hope Holland talked to Babcock about his post playoff comments today. The Wings system of finding talent in the later rounds and letting them over develop has been in place since the early 2000's. Personally I think the Wings group of prospects is the best since the late-80's early-90's. When we were winning cups, we only had guys like Butsayev, Laplante, Golubovsky, Wallin, and Kuznetsov in the system.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Barrie

[gowings00 545]

I'm 100% convinced he wants to leave because he doesn't see another Zetterburg or Datsyuk on this team or in the pipeline. I think his wife likes it there and doesn't even want to entertain the idea....hence the heated discussion.

I also think Babcocks puck possession style starts in the back end and relies on having good shooting defensemen. Something we dong really have.

Edited May 1, 2015 by gowings00

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'm 100% convinced he wants to leave because he doesn't see another Zetterburg or Datsyuk on this team or in the pipeline. I think his wife likes it there and doesn't even want to entertain the idea....hence the heated discussion.

If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk. Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar. Neither did Darryl Sutter. Neither of them had a Lidstrom either.

I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that. Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks.

[gowings00 545]

If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk. Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar. Neither did Darryl Sutter. Neither of them had a Lidstrom either.

I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that. Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks.

I'm specifically talking about the leadership and drive of those two.

As Holland said

"There are no Zetterbergs or Datsyuks coming through our system now. To get these guys in the sixth and seventh rounds is like catching lightning in a bottle twice."

If you listen to Babcock in his interview today he makes this same point and admits that it's a concern.

It's why he begged Holland for Cleary and went after another team's captain in Weiss. He values that.

As it stands today, I dong think he sees this in other players .

[kipwinger 8,524]

And like I said, if he can't win without a datsuk or zetterberg then he's not that good.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

He was right. Filppula is better than Weiss.

Not to get off topic, but I've seen comments on Filppula around and it really shouldn't be though of as Weiss vs. Flip. It wouldn't really be good to have the money commited for either player. You should have noticed that Filppula was on T.B.'s 3rd line in the playoffs. and he has a 5 mill cap hit. Furthermore, his stats for the year were 82gp, 12g 36a 48 pts. and -14. That minus on a team where no one else was close. He had a good year last year, but he played beside Stamkos for a lot of that year (as he suceeded beside Z that one year here) and now has returned to the player he was for the majority of his time here. I always liked him, but as a secondary player and he's not worth the chunk of change he takes up. Then again, neither is Weiss at this point.

As for Babcock, I really like that interview. He seems really emotionally involved with team. It seemed like he felt he let down Z, Dats, and Kronwall. I'm still on the fence here and I switch opinions whether he should stay or go. He says not to read into his comments, but he made a few things clear. He considers important to stay in the D since his children all grew up there and have roots (friends, etc) there. He doesn't care all that much about the issue of raising the salary bar for coaches. Doesn't want GM duties. Without surefire places to win (Pens are the closest) that point me toward him wanting to stay.

[gowings00 545]

And like I said, if he can't win without a datsuk or zetterberg then he's not that good.

It's not their names or the amount of points he wants. He wants that type of leadership, commitment and effort on the ice. It's something every coach struggles with: Do I go for talent or guys that who can set the example on the ice. Fillpula vs Weiss. Cleary vs whoever we could have signed if not for Cleary.

Now, I have my frustrations with Babcock but it's a valid point Babcock is making.

Edited May 1, 2015 by gowings00

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If that's really the case, then Mike Babcock isn't as great as everyone makes him out to be. Lots of teams win Cups without a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk. Joel Quenneville never had a 90+ point, two way, superstar. Neither did Darryl Sutter. Neither of them had a Lidstrom either.

I sure hope that Babcock has more faith in his coaching ability than that. Because if he really thinks he can't win without a Datsyuk or Zetterberg, then he absolutely sucks.

Lots of teams? Like who?

The first one I can kind of think of is Carolina. And they at least had Staal.

Quenneville had an 88 point player in Kane, a 68 point great two way forward in Toews, and a Norris winning defenseman in Keith. And Hossa. So he had three superstar forwards and a great #1 d-man. Quenneville hadn't been to the Cup finals until he coached a team with that talent.

Sutter didn't win the Cup until he had Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, along with Brown, Richards and Carter. Sutter had several great forwards, a great #1 d-man, and a great playoff goaltender.

Are you really saying those two teams won the Cup without players of the calibre of Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Lots of teams? Like who?

The first one I can kind of think of is Carolina. And they at least had Staal.

Quenneville had an 88 point player in Kane, a 68 point great two way forward in Toews, and a Norris winning defenseman in Keith. And Hossa. So he had three superstar forwards and a great #1 d-man. Quenneville hadn't been to the Cup finals until he coached a team with that talent.

Sutter didn't win the Cup until he had Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, along with Brown, Richards and Carter. Sutter had several great forwards, a great #1 d-man, and a great playoff goaltender.

Are you really saying those two teams won the Cup without players of the calibre of Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

Yes, I am saying that.

Neither Kane, nor Toews, have been as good as Zetterberg and Datsyuk were in 2008. That's a fact. They simply weren't. Kane had 88 points and was a joke defensively defensively. Toews was better at defense, but scored 68. Datsyuk and Zetterberg score 90+ points, were world class defensive players AND played on both the PP and penalty kill to boot.

If you think Toews and Kane in 2010 and 2012 were better (or as good) as Dats or Z in 2008 you're nuts. They weren't, by any objective measure.

Kopitar is an excellent player. World class. He's never score 90+, played on both special teams, and played world class defense. Neither did Carter. Or Brown. Or Richards. Or Gaborik.

No team, in the modern era has won the Cup with two players that good. Not Pittsburgh. Not Chicago. Not Los Angeles or Boston.

People forget just how good Dats and Z and Lidstrom were in 2008. They were simultaneously two of the top five best offensive AND the defensive fowards in the world, at the same time. Lidstrom was THE best offensive and defensive defenseman at the same time. Nobody you mentioned was has every been that good. Period.

And I'm honestly not even trying to rag on Babs here. I don't think he needs players that good to win. And if he does, I hope he's not holding his breath, because you're not likely to find anybody that good in a while. I'm criticizing folks who think that Babs is looking for another Pav and Z for his next job. There aren't another Pav and Z. Anywhere.

Please, if you've got a single argument that suggests that any of Kopitar, Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, or anybody else was as good as Dats and Z were in 2008, I'd love to hear it.

Edit: I'm focusing on the forwards because that was the original context of the debate, but the same applies for the defense. Doughty and Keith are amazing. They're not better than Lidstrom was in 2008. Not even close.

But again, my point is that I doubt finding "another Pav and Z" is Babs' primary motivation. Because he won't be able to, and he shouldn't need to. And if it is his primary motivation, then he's not that great.

Edited May 1, 2015 by kipwinger