DRW Free Agents / Salary Thread

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Which is exactly my point. One of those guys is a rookie, and the other is a 35 year old goofball who's career was in the toilet prior to coming to Nashville. Yet both produced significantly better than expected this year. Why? Either because Forsberg is some otherworldly rookie who's a superstar in the making (he's not) and Ribiero experienced some sort of personal renaissance (he didn't). Or because Peter Laviolette's style of hockey maximizes the scoring potential of the guys who play in it.

Conversely, the Red Wings had a healthy Dats and Z all season AND got career years out of Nyquist, Tatar, Helm, and Abby and we were a worse scoring team (even strength) than they were a year ago.

Nashville got less production out of Neal than they got out of Hornqvist the year before under Trotz, but the teams overall production rose under Laviolette. They got signficantly less when you factor in Spaling's production as well.

But I agree, he is a giant ******.

Ribeiro never really dipped and you can't really claim a resurgence under Laviolette. he had 49pts in 48 games in the lockout shortened 12-13. He had one down season in 13-14 with 47pts in 80gp, but that could be explained by the fact that he was playing for the coyotes, who were a worse team than the Predators or The Caps. That season is also complicated by the fact that he apparently had some issues with alcohal/partying which lead to him being bought out.

Forsberg just played his first full year so I would think it more plausible that he was getting used to the league in his 18 games of the 2 preceding years.

Edited May 8, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[amato 3,210]

Nashville got less production out of Neal than they got out of Hornqvist the year before under Trotz, but the teams overall production rose under Laviolette. They got signficantly less when you factor in Spaling's production as well.

But I agree, he is a giant ******.

Touchè. I'll admit, I don't pay that close of attention to the preds but I just figured his chippiness probably helped some. Forgot they gave up hornquist in that deal for a second.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Ribeiro never really dipped and you can't claim a resurgence under Laviolette. he had 49pts in 48 games in the lockout shortened 12-13. He had one down season in 13-14, but that could be explained by the fact that he was playing for the coyotes. That season is also complicated by the fact that he apparently had some issues with alcohal/partying which lead to him being bought out.

Forsberg just played his first full year so I would think it more plausible that he was getting used to the league in previous years.

Fair points. If you're ready to attribute Nashville's increase in offense to predominantly those two guys, that's fine. It doesn't negate the underlying point I was making, which is that coaching style/system can have a significant impact on the productivity of a team.

Perhaps a better example is how Pittsburgh was significantly better (and won a Cup) after they fired Therrien and hired Bylsma mid season. St. Louis improved dramatically after hiring Hitchcock mid-season. Anaheim did the same when they hired Boudreau mid-season and got rid of Carlyle. Los Angeles improved, AND won the Cup after firing Murray and replacing him with Sutter mid-season. In each instance the roster was essentially the same. In each instance the team was significantly better afterward.

Having the right coach for the right roster is critical. Babs is a really good coach. With a different roster he'd have more success. Hell, he had quite a lot of success with our previous roster. But with our current group of guys, he hasn't shown that he can take them to the next level. If we don't consider the possibility that maybe there's a better fit, then the only other option is to tear the team down and rebuild one that Babs can win with. Which is totally unrealistic, and also totally unnecessary. Particularly given the fact that we've already got a coach in the system who knows how to win with our current guys.

[Buppy 1,720]

I don't know though. I mean, Laviollete unquestionably made Nashville a more offensive team, with essentially the same personnel. And Washington is much more defensive under Trotz.

Look at the Vigneault/Tortorella swap, same deal. I do think the coach's system play a huge role in the determining the upper limits of your teams' productivity. I don't think it's a stretch to think a new coach could get more offense out of our current roster. The big question, to me, is whether or not that would be a good thing or not. I contend that it would, because our young skill players have the highest ceilings on the team, and the most room for growth. Or, put another way, I think we're more likely to have success if Tatar, Nyquist, or Pulkkinen can consistently play at their upper limits, than if Abby, Sheahan, or Helm consistently play at theirs. And I've never thought that Babcock was the guy to develop skill players like that.

Both Washington and Nashville are better both offensively and defensively than they were last year. Nashville scored 13 more 5v5 goals this year over last, 12 more total goals. Hardly any dramatic difference, and easily attributable to the personnel changes.

Could a different coach get a little more offense? Maybe. Hell, seems often a new coach gives a team a spark, for a year at least. But I wouldn't necessarily expect it, nor would I expect much more out of Nyquist or Tatar. They're doing pretty damn well already.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Fair points. If you're ready to attribute Nashville's increase in offense to predominantly those two guys, that's fine. It doesn't negate the underlying point I was making, which is that coaching style/system can have a significant impact on the productivity of a team.

Perhaps a better example is how Pittsburgh was significantly better (and won a Cup) after they fired Therrien and hired Bylsma mid season. St. Louis improved dramatically after hiring Hitchcock mid-season. Anaheim did the same when they hired Boudreau mid-season and got rid of Carlyle. Los Angeles improved, AND won the Cup after firing Murray and replacing him with Sutter mid-season. In each instance the roster was essentially the same. In each instance the team was significantly better afterward.

Having the right coach for the right roster is critical. Babs is a really good coach. With a different roster he'd have more success. Hell, he had quite a lot of success with our previous roster. But with our current group of guys, he hasn't shown that he can take them to the next level. If we don't consider the possibility that maybe there's a better fit, then the only other option is to tear the team down and rebuild one that Babs can win with. Which is totally unrealistic, and also totally unnecessary. Particularly given the fact that we've already got a coach in the system who knows how to win with our current guys.

I don't think many would argue with you that a coach can make a big impact on a team. Also, matching a team and a coaching style is important. I just don't agree with the argument that our players are a mismatch for his style. I don't think we're an offensively potent team 5-on-5 that's been held back by Babcock. I think we've specifically drafted 2 way talents and I think that's what fits Babcock's demands. I think what has held us back is a few missing pieces on the roster.

If you hate Babcock's system, if he's replaced by Blashill, it will be interesting to see if his is vastly different. They run pretty close in GR. I think part of that is that they've co-ordinate it to help prospects make the transition easier. Do you want him as a replacement?

Edited May 8, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kipwinger 8,518]

I don't think many would argue with you that a coach can make a big impact on a team. Also, matching a team and a coaching style is important. I just don't agree with the argument that our players are a mismatch for his style. I don't think we're an offensively potent team 5-on-5 that's been held back by Babcock. I think we've specifically drafted 2 way talents and I think that's what fits Babcock's demands. I think what has held us back is a few missing pieces on the roster.

If you hate Babcock's system, if he's replaced by Blashill, it will be interesting to see if his is vastly different. They run pretty close in GR. I think part of that is that they've co-ordinate it to help prospects make the transition easier. Do you want him as a replacement?

I do want Blash as coach, and I do think that he'd get a different result. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.

With regard to our drafting, I think you've totally mischaracterized our strategy for choosing players. Holland has stated repeatedly in the past that he draft on skill and hockey IQ. None of Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Jensen, Smith, Kindl, AA, Sproul, Frk, Tvardon, and Ferraro were "two way" players at lower levels. Most still aren't.

And none of Helm, Sheahan, Turgeon, or Callahan were thought to have much offensive upside when they were drafted either. So they definitely weren't considered "two way" players.

Of our current crop of young players/prospects, only Abby, Larkin, Ouellet, and Nastasiuk were considered "two way" players when they were drafted. And I'll give you Bertuzzi. While he had never produced offensively prior to being drafted, there had to be a reason why they took him so high. Otherwise it's a complete headscratcher.

[Shinzaki 72]

We are slow coming out of our end of the ice....we circle back and reset (if we're lucky) constntly which gives the opposition time to set up and force us to play chip and chase. That makes us much easier to defend.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I do want Blash as coach, and I do think that he'd get a different result. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.

With regard to our drafting, I think you've totally mischaracterized our strategy for choosing players. Holland has stated repeatedly in the past that he draft on skill and hockey IQ. None of Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Jensen, Smith, Kindl, AA, Sproul, Frk, Tvardon, and Ferraro were "two way" players at lower levels. Most still aren't.

And none of Helm, Sheahan, Turgeon, or Callahan were thought to have much offensive upside when they were drafted either. So they definitely weren't considered "two way" players.

Of our current crop of young players/prospects, only Abby, Larkin, Ouellet, and Nastasiuk were considered "two way" players when they were drafted. And I'll give you Bertuzzi. While he had never produced offensively prior to being drafted, there had to be a reason why they took him so high. Otherwise it's a complete headscratcher.

Your right. I shouldn't have said drafted - I kind of wrote that part without thinking. To be honest, I don't know enough the majority of our prospects to know their reputations at lower levels before we draft them. I actually think complete 2-way players are few an far between at the time of drafting from what I've seen. We do develop players to be 2-way players and I think most organizations do and that involves scouting and GR though it is with an eye on Babcock's demands. I think that's all beside the point, though.

I just really disagree with the idea that Babs' team defensive system has been a bad thing for the team and those prospects mentioned. Kindl and Smith would have to play defence under any NHL coach or else they would hurt the team. Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen would have to learn to back check under any coach or they would hurt the team. All offensive players have to play smart on the defensive side for a team to have success. OV found that and finally gave in this year. Edit: Exception: if the team can cover up for them with great goaltending or defence.

I think if you took away Babs' system of team defence then the D would look bad and we might have more goals for, but we'd certainly have more goals against. Without the offensive stars that draft picks bring in I think it's also going to be the best path to success.

Now after all that, I'm still on the fence about Babcock. I think it could be time for a change, not for style reasons, but to enable the team a sense of turning the page and refocus with a new voice and new ideas (although our revolving assistant coach positions have supplied that somewhat). I also know that most of our team hasn't been with babs for long so for them it's not an old voice. We shall see.

Edited May 9, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[DickieDunn 2,571]

TLDR version. Miller and Glendening were 4th line players, those overall toi was bumped up because they were the 2 primary PK guys. Babcock is overly stubborn and once he decides what a guy is, that's it. Playing Abdelkader and Helm on scoring lines is not a bad thing. Bowman always had 2 skill guys and a grinder like McCarty, Brown, Glichrist, and Lapointe playing with Yzerman, Fedorov, Kozlov, Larionov, etc.

[Buppy 1,720]

TLDR version. Miller and Glendening were 4th line players, those overall toi was bumped up because they were the 2 primary PK guys. Babcock is overly stubborn and once he decides what a guy is, that's it. Playing Abdelkader and Helm on scoring lines is not a bad thing. Bowman always had 2 skill guys and a grinder like McCarty, Brown, Glichrist, and Lapointe playing with Yzerman, Fedorov, Kozlov, Larionov, etc.

Exactly, though 3rd line in the playoffs. Jurco-Sheahan-Andy was the 4th line. Jurco and Andy deserved to be below them. Sheahan is debateable, and he was getting 14 min/g, so not like he was dramatically underused.

Abdelkader proved to be a good complementary piece, much like Homer was. Helm was good at times too. Having guys like that gives you the option of spreading out the talent, though in our case I think it was more due to a lack of other good options, especially with Franzen out. Yeah, Babs hasn't seemed willing to use Weiss, but you could make an argument that it's been justified.

All in all, there are worse problems to have than Abby and Helm being our 6th and 7th best forwards who had to move up a spot because Franzen was hurt, and Babcock using them as such.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I wouldn't mind Stafford, but I'd look into Joel Ward, too. Winnipeg has plenty of cap space and Stafford seems to be a good fit there.

Depending on where Washington's priorities lie, they might elect to let Ward move on. If they do, I'd like the Wings to look at him - he's been pretty solid in the playoffs. They've got about four NHL defenders signed - Carlson, Alzner, Orpik and Niskanen. They have to lock up Holtby, Johansson, Kuznetsov and probably one of Green/Ward.

[number9 3,297]

I think the bottom 6 should be the last of our worries. And further more I think forwards should be the last of our worries. We have a number of top 6 forwards and bottom 6 forwards entering the league the next few years. DEFENSE is still the glaring issue with this team.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

How about trading for Phaneuf and picking up Green on the UFA a front, job done?

Edited May 10, 2015 by Andy Pred 48

[kliq 3,755]

How about trading for Phaneuf and picking up Green on the UFA a front, job done?

Dont want Green, past his prime and injury prone. Maybe in the pre-cap era, but not now.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Dont want Green, past his prime and injury prone. Maybe in the pre-cap era, but not now.

Agreed I mean haven't the Wings learned by now ? It's not wise to bring in players with a serious injury history or pay a premium for a third pairing defenseman. Yeah I get it Washington has Niskanen, Alzner but Green should have been able to at least get a top two pairing job.

Wings need a big bodied physical shutdown type and someone who can run the PP.

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

Holland can buyout Weiss actually and it'll probably happen if we don't get Phanuef so I hope it doesn't work out

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

Green can move the puck and put up points he'd be fine playing with Dekeyser, Frank please just stop, he wasn't on the top two pairs because he's an offensive defenseman and Trotz is a defensive coach it makes sense that he played on the top six, Carlson is good offensively and defensively so he was on the top pair, Niskanen is decent at both so he got the second pair, green is great offensively not so great defensively so he played on the third pair with a defensive defenseman usually because the coaches first concern on five on five is solid D, he logged a lot of PP minutes on the best unit in the league, the wings PP will be number one next year if we pick green up.

[HIFI_canadian 18]

"You don't know what you got until it's gone"

Ken Holland is an outstanding General Manager and anyone who says that he "overspends" or makes poor offseason decisions is insane. We've been spoiled and he always finds a way to keep our team competitive. Free Agency is not the same market like it was before the salary cap, all it is is a bunch of overpriced players who are looking for a new home and a raise. Sure you'll find a couple "key" players but you have to think about the nucleus of the team before disrupting it with a couple veterans. Hollands seeks for role players and that's how it should be. He made his offers, some declined and some took a chance. I don't blame him for last offseason, he tried getting right-handed shots and those who provide depth on special teams.

Stephen Weiss was a Mike Babcock signing, look it up.

Colaiacovo was a need, they had no defensemen!

Tootoo was a body they needed on the 4th, Babcock endorsed it.

Alfie and Modano=Powerplay support, look up their Powerplay stats from 2010-2014 it was a need.

Gustavesson solid backup.

Commer and Sammy was bad signings, he's not a perfect GM.

His best signing was Brunner and Glendening. If you want to give him a star you should thank Holland for not giving Brunner the 3 year, $3.5 million per yr Brunner's agent asked.

Edited May 15, 2015 by HIFI_canadian

[number9 3,297]

"You don't know what you got until it's gone"

Ken Holland is an outstanding General Manager and anyone who says that he "overspends" or makes poor offseason decisions is insane. We've been spoiled and he always finds a way to keep our team competitive. Free Agency is not the same market like it was before the salary cap, all it is is a bunch of overpriced players who are looking for a new home and a raise. Sure you'll find a couple "key" players but you have to think about the nucleus of the team before disrupting it with a couple veterans. Hollands seeks for role players and that's how it should be. He made his offers, some declined and some took a chance. I don't blame him for last offseason, he tried getting right-handed shots and those who provide depth on special teams.

Stephen Weiss was a Mike Babcock signing, look it up.

Colaiacovo was a need, they had no defensemen!

Tootoo was a body they needed on the 4th, Babcock endorsed it.

Alfie and Modano=Powerplay support, look up their Powerplay stats from 2010-2014 it was a need.

Gustavesson solid backup.

Commer and Sammy was bad signings, he's not a perfect GM.

His best signing was Brunner and disney.com. If you want to give him a star you should thank Holland for not giving Brunner the 3 year, $3.5 million per yr Brunner's agent asked.

Alfie was a great signing IMO

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Stephen Weiss was a Mike Babcock signing, look it up.

His best signing was Brunner and disney.com. If you want to give him a star you should thank Holland for not giving Brunner the 3 year, $3.5 million per yr Brunner's agent asked.

I looked it up and I can't find anything that says this.

Alfie, Monster, Brunner, Glendening, and Dekeyser were all great signings.

[HIFI_canadian 18]

I looked it up and I can't find anything that says this.

Alfie, Monster, Brunner, Glendening, and Dekeyser were all great signings.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2015/04/30/mike-babcock-job-rumors/26629133/

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2015/04/30/mike-babcock-job-rumors/26629133/

Okay. I think "pushed for Stephen Weiss two years ago." is a bit different than it being a Babcock signing. The article says he's involved in every free agent signing. I'm sure Holland is the decision maker and Babcock's voice can sway a decision just like Ryan Martin, Draper, Chelios, Devellano (though his might have more weight than others).

Edited May 15, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kliq 3,755]

Holland can buyout Weiss actually and it'll probably happen if we don't get Phanuef so I hope it doesn't work out

I would rather try to trade him. If we buy him out, I believe a percentage of his cap hit counts against the cap for the next 3 years.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Green can move the puck and put up points he'd be fine playing with Dekeyser, Frank please just stop, he wasn't on the top two pairs because he's an offensive defenseman and Trotz is a defensive coach it makes sense that he played on the top six, Carlson is good offensively and defensively so he was on the top pair, Niskanen is decent at both so he got the second pair, green is great offensively not so great defensively so he played on the third pair with a defensive defenseman usually because the coaches first concern on five on five is solid D, he logged a lot of PP minutes on the best unit in the league, the wings PP will be number one next year if we pick green up.

No, I'm not going to stop it, it's my opinion don't like it don't read it.

Fact is, Green was a 6 million third pairing defenseman and has an injury history. Wings have gambled on guys like that and it's save to say it hasn't worked out in most cases.

Detroit doesn't have a sniper so someone who can only run the PP but lacks in the most important area doesn't help much, at least not at the price tag Green will likely command.Yeah a pp qb is needed but it can't be someone who's risky in his own end.

Edited May 15, 2015 by frankgrimes

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I would rather try to trade him. If we buy him out, I believe a percentage of his cap hit counts against the cap for the next 3 years.

2.45 million against the cap for the next 6 years (you half the caphit and double the years).

I think that would be a horrible move. Especially since he's not taking a spot from a more productive prospect. trade him or play him on the 3rd line.