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Jim Devellano on Mantha's play: "Very disappointing"

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A Larkin like transition? Give me a break. Larkin played a grand total of 6 games in Grand Rapids. Sure, he looked great, but anyone can pull that off in such a small sample size, especially coming off an unbelievable college season, World Juniors, and World Championships. I'm willing to bet that Mantha could have pulled off similar numbers in the 2014 playoffs with the Griffins, if Val d'Or didn't go on such a deep run, winning the President's Cup and going on to play for the Memorial Cup. Confidence is huge in any professional sport, and hockey is no different. Larkin was coming into the Calder Cup playoffs oozing confidence, just as Mantha would have a year prior. Instead, Mantha came into training camp last offseason oozing confidence and looking great, and then fractured his right tibia, and as a result was out for 2 months, missing the Red Wings training camp and the Griffins training camp, and just never got his game on track after that. Some act as such a serious leg injury is no big deal, and he should have immediately regained form. I do think he had a rough season, and he probably should have ended the regular season on a more positive note, or at the very least should have been more of an impact by playoffs. However, I do believe that we will see a completely different player in Grand Rapids this season. I expect he will hover at or around a point per game pace the entire season. Here's to hoping...

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Buppy/number9

So... based on your expectations you are disappoint, but you're not ready to throw in the towel on the kid.

So, would you trade him for the right player? (whether it be a one for one or package deal) ...or is he "untouchable." (in your eyes)

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A Larkin like transition? Give me a break. Larkin played a grand total of 6 games in Grand Rapids. Sure, he looked great, but anyone can pull that off in such a small sample size, especially coming off an unbelievable college season, World Juniors, and World Championships. I'm willing to bet that Mantha could have pulled off similar numbers in the 2014 playoffs with the Griffins, if Val d'Or didn't go on such a deep run, winning the President's Cup and going on to play for the Memorial Cup. Confidence is huge in any professional sport, and hockey is no different. Larkin was coming into the Calder Cup playoffs oozing confidence, just as Mantha would have a year prior. Instead, Mantha came into training camp last offseason oozing confidence and looking great, and then fractured his right tibia, and as a result was out for 2 months, missing the Red Wings training camp and the Griffins training camp, and just never got his game on track after that. Some act as such a serious leg injury is no big deal, and he should have immediately regained form. I do think he had a rough season, and he probably should have ended the regular season on a more positive note, or at the very least should have been more of an impact by playoffs. However, I do believe that we will see a completely different player in Grand Rapids this season. I expect he will hover at or around a point per game pace the entire season. Here's to hoping...

Also he didn't have a proper training camp like the other guys. He started it, got injured before the season started then had to get back into shape while healing his injured leg. The fact he scored .5 PPG is pretty good, he was also playing on the 3rd/4th lines for awhile as well getting limited minutes and being stuck with Potter didn't help.

Edit: Forgot he was also injured before the playoffs as well.

Edited by darkmanx

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A Larkin like transition? Give me a break. Larkin played a grand total of 6 games in Grand Rapids. Sure, he looked great, but anyone can pull that off in such a small sample size, especially coming off an unbelievable college season, World Juniors, and World Championships. I'm willing to bet that Mantha could have pulled off similar numbers in the 2014 playoffs with the Griffins, if Val d'Or didn't go on such a deep run, winning the President's Cup and going on to play for the Memorial Cup. Confidence is huge in any professional sport, and hockey is no different. Larkin was coming into the Calder Cup playoffs oozing confidence, just as Mantha would have a year prior. Instead, Mantha came into training camp last offseason oozing confidence and looking great, and then fractured his right tibia, and as a result was out for 2 months, missing the Red Wings training camp and the Griffins training camp, and just never got his game on track after that. Some act as such a serious leg injury is no big deal, and he should have immediately regained form. I do think he had a rough season, and he probably should have ended the regular season on a more positive note, or at the very least should have been more of an impact by playoffs. However, I do believe that we will see a completely different player in Grand Rapids this season. I expect he will hover at or around a point per game pace the entire season. Here's to hoping...

Excuses.

Bottom line is he had a disappointing first AHL season no matter how you want to paint it. Devellano isn't wrong, he's just dumb for saying it to the media. Clearly the organization had higher hopes for his first season.

Buppy/number9

So... based on your expectations you are disappoint, but you're not ready to throw in the towel on the kid.

So, would you trade him for the right player? (whether it be a one for one or package deal) ...or is he "untouchable." (in your eyes)

No I think he's still untouchable. He's just trending downward. However, If plays the same way again this coming season I think he's gonna start becoming touchable real quickly.

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Excuses.

No I think he's still untouchable. He's just trending downward. However, If plays the same way again this coming season I think he's gonna start becoming touchable real quickly.

Won't it be too late? This is the biggest problem I have with Devellano's comments. Sure, be disappointed, but why devalue your prospects in the media when there are all sorts of EXCUSES you can use to deflect the disappointment...

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Won't it be too late? This is the biggest problem I have with Devellano's comments. Sure, be disappointed, but why devalue your prospects in the media when there are all sorts of EXCUSES you can use to deflect the disappointment...

Some of our posters would be perfect replacements for Devellano and his minuscule brain.

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Excuses? I think they're facts... He did get injured, did he not? It was a very serious injury, was it not? Like I said, I'm not making "excuses" for the entire season, I'm saying it definitely had an effect on his game out of the gate. Not starting on time and struggling out of the gate absolutely affected his confidence, and he never regained that confidence which in turn effected his entire season. Should it have lingered throughout the entire season and into the playoffs? Hell no. He did have a disappointing season, but the most disappointing part of his season was the injury itself that started the whole thing. Had he not gotten injured, I believe he would have gotten 50+ points in 70 games, just as I believe he will get 60-70 points in 60-70 games this coming season. Anyway, I don't think we really disagree that much here, I may be a little defensive because of your previous statement about how "Mantha sucks"... However, I guess I should know by now to take most of what you say with a grain of salt... I'm assuming that was said in jest?...

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Excuses? I think they're facts... He did get injured, did he not? It was a very serious injury, was it not? Like I said, I'm not making "excuses" for the entire season, I'm saying it definitely had an effect on his game out of the gate. Not starting on time and struggling out of the gate absolutely affected his confidence, and he never regained that confidence which in turn effected his entire season. Should it have lingered throughout the entire season and into the playoffs? Hell no. He did have a disappointing season, but the most disappointing part of his season was the injury itself that started the whole thing. Had he not gotten injured, I believe he would have gotten 50+ points in 70 games, just as I believe he will get 60-70 points in 60-70 games this coming season. Anyway, I don't think we really disagree that much here, I may be a little defensive because of your previous statement about how "Mantha sucks"... However, I guess I should know by now to take most of what you say with a grain of salt... I'm assuming that was said in jest?...

Mantha sucked this year. And I don't think it had anything to do with his injury.

Saying it hurt his confidence, or that the injury was nagging him are all 100% shots in the dark/guesses on your part, and yes you're using them to make excuses for his poor play when you have no idea if they're true or not.

Look at lil Bertuzzi. He missed a lot of time with a significant injury and came back looking better than before the injury.

But the real reason I don't think the injury excuse is valid with him is bc of what I saw of his play. Sure he's big and talented, but he is terrible away from the puck. Goes invisible for long stretches, and does a lot of waiting for the puck to come to him. That's exactly what the knock on him in juniors was, and it's exactly what I saw out of him this season. Maybe he got away with it there, but that needs to change if he's gonna be able to hustle with the big boys in this league. So I don't think it was injury at all and I'm disappointed that he played like that all season. We all know with his talent he could do better.

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Won't it be too late? This is the biggest problem I have with Devellano's comments. Sure, be disappointed, but why devalue your prospects in the media when there are all sorts of EXCUSES you can use to deflect the disappointment...

I agree, I think it was very un-wing like, but I think his statements are accurate at least. And they likely reflect the feelings of the entire organization even if they're a little less brutally blunt about it. I doubt Devellano is some rogue and is the only one who thinks this about Mantha.

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I don't disagree with your assessment at all. I agree 100% that he even looked disinterested at times, not engaged in the play. However, is it even a remote possibility that it could have been even a tiny bit to do with his injury? Is it possible that he could have had some discomfort in his right leg throughout the season? Not saying he did, but it is certainly a possibility, is it not?

That was definitely a huge knock on him in his draft year, but I watched a ton of him in the 2013-14 season in Val d'Or, and pace wasn't an issue with him that year at all in my opinion. I get that he was "a man amongst boys" down there, but he still skated circles around them offensively and got back defensively as well. I still believe with a full training camp, he will be a totally different player this coming season...

Like I said before though, I don't think anyone really disagrees that his season was a little disappointing, I just don't think it was as terrible as some people, including Devellano, make it seem...

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Blashill:

Q. You coached Anthony Mantha for a season. What is your assessment?

A. First of all, the expectation level on Anthony was too high, and in part that was his fault. When you have a career like that in juniors, the expectations are too high.

He got hurt two times during the season, and that made it difficult on him — especially at the beginning of the year, when you are establishing good habits. And then right before the playoffs, in June.

I think Anthony has a skill set that will allow him to be a great player.

I think Anthony still needs to learn to work as hard as you have to work, shift in and shift out, moving his feet, in order to utilize that skill set at the American league level and the NHL level. And it would have been impossible for him to realize he had to do that at the junior level, because he didn’t have to.

Until you’ve faced a level where you actually have to, you’re never going to make those adjustments ...

That doesn’t happen overnight …

I agree 100% with Blash. If your expectations were he was going to perform the way he did in juniors then it's your own fault for setting your own expectations that high. He had a broken leg and was injured before the playoffs. Absolutely nothing wrong with him performing at .5 PPG for his first AHL season against actual men. Patience from the Wing fanbase should be expected....

Edited by darkmanx

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I don't disagree with your assessment at all. I agree 100% that he even looked disinterested at times, not engaged in the play. However, is it even a remote possibility that it could have been even a tiny bit to do with his injury? Is it possible that he could have had some discomfort in his right leg throughout the season? Not saying he did, but it is certainly a possibility, is it not?

That was definitely a huge knock on him in his draft year, but I watched a ton of him in the 2013-14 season in Val d'Or, and pace wasn't an issue with him that year at all in my opinion. I get that he was "a man amongst boys" down there, but he still skated circles around them offensively and got back defensively as well. I still believe with a full training camp, he will be a totally different player this coming season...

Like I said before though, I don't think anyone really disagrees that his season was a little disappointing, I just don't think it was as terrible as some people, including Devellano, make it seem...

Yeah, I'm not ruling it out. I'm just saying if I knew nothing about Franzen prior to this season you'd probably describe him to me as a good goal scoring power-forward that doesn't play all that physical. Fair? Now if Franzen got injured right away in October, and then came back and didn't play physical... I wouldn't blame it on the injury, I'd go back to what you told me about him and say, he's never played physical, that's just how he his.

Same with Mantha. By all accounts this is his game and how he plays it. It was exactly what was described to me and exactly what I saw. So I'm not going to blame too much here on the injury. I don't think just staying healthy here is his issue, as Blashill described, he still has a lot to work on in his game, including work ethic and keeping his skates moving.

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The best thing about Grand Rapids is that it is one of the best places a young player can learn all the proper habits and play the game the right way. Mantha can only benefit playing there. He has the raw natural talent. Once he rounds out his game and learns how to be consistent each game, look out!

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Blashill:

I agree 100% with Blash. If your expectations were he was going to perform the way he did in juniors then it's your own fault for setting your own expectations that high. He had a broken leg and was injured before the playoffs. Absolutely nothing wrong with him performing at .5 PPG for his first AHL season against actual men. Patience from the Wing fanbase should be expected....

"I think Anthony still needs to learn to work as hard as you have to work, shift in and shift out, moving his feet, in order to utilize that skill set at the American league level and the NHL level. And it would have been impossible for him to realize he had to do that at the junior level, because he didn’t have to."

I think that sums it up. I've already said I think the expectations of him were too high. And injuries gave him less time to adjust. But despite those two things, the bottom line is his game has some glaring holes in it. And they're the same holes that have followed him from junior. Sure being healthy and having more reasonable expectations would be a plus... but that's not going to suddenly fix the obvious flaws in his game that he's had for a while now.

Too avoid another disappointment, I think he needs to spend a lot more time working on his game away from the puck.

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Yeah I've read it. Exactly which of my points do you think is... ridiculous?

Mantha's season was, perhaps, a bit disappointing. His game still needs work. But the Wings knew what they were getting when they drafted him. They knew he was going to be a bit of a project. Anyone who'd watched him play knew he was going to be a bit of a project. He was never going to make the team out of last year's camp. At most, he might've earned a couple games with the big club towards the end of the regular season. He needed to learn defense. He needed to learn how to protect the puck against men. He needed to learn how to emerge from a brutal scrum with possession of the puck. He needed to learn how to operate with much less time and space and civility than he'd enjoyed in the QMJHL. His game was weighted wildly towards the offensive side of things. That had to change in a big way, and that's not a change you make in half a season. And that's saying nothing of the broken leg.

For all these reasons and more, you can't say his season was "very, very, very disappointing." You can barely say it was disappointing. He was in for a tough season even before he'd broken his leg. All things considered, 15 goals and 33 points in 62 games, with limited power play time and third-line minutes, is a pretty good year. If the hype surrounding Mantha hadn't been so absurdly huge, no one would have a problem with his season. We'd be saying he needs another year, and that that's no big deal because it's to be expected with a 20-year-old who's never had to play defense or compete against men.

But none of that really seems to mean much to you, which I don't get. The way you see it, Mantha sucked this year, and it wasn't because of the injury, it was because he sucked. And if someone tries to "use the injury as an excuse" for his "poor play," that line of reasoning doesn't hold up, because it's "100% speculation." Even though saying the injury had nothing to do with his performance is equally speculative and, in fact, much less reasonable. Because, which sounds more plausible: that breaking his leg right before his first NHL training camp and spending the first part of his first AHL season unable to do much of anything in the way of physical conditioning A) had a significant impact on his season and should be taken into account when reviewing his season and the progress he made (or didn't make), or B) had no impact whatsoever on his season and should not be taken into account when reviewing his season and the progress he made (or didn't make)?

He needs to be better away from the puck. He needs to compete harder. He needs to improve in some key areas. No one's more aware of this than the player himself. But I don't see the need for trashing him. I'm not sure most people appreciate how tough it is to go from being a big fish in the QMJHL (which is pretty much a terrible league) to a boy among men in the AHL, especially when you were such a big fish that you were never really asked (or taught!) how to play AHL/NHL-level defense and your shifts would often stretch to 120 seconds long.

I don't see the basis for saying he sucked. I don't see how comparing his first few games as a Griffin to Tyler Bertuzzi's first few games as a Griffin really tells us anything. It's sort of like the Franzen-versus-Chris Neil thing. Franzen doesn't play with Chris Neil's "intensity" and "edge" and "physicality." But Neil doesn't have Franzen's skill, talent, skating, hockey IQ, scoring prowess, etc. Bertuzzi's game, at this time, is more complete than Mantha's. So is Landon Ferraro's. But Mantha's strengths can't be taught or instilled, while the things he needs to learn can. Same deal as Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen - except, Mantha's going to become a full-time Wing at 21 or 22 years of age, versus the standard 23 or 24. Because 1) he's that talented, 2) the things he needs to work on are things that virtually all 20-year-old snipers need to work on, and 3) the Wings are the best at taking raw talent and sculpting it into a rounded NHL player.

The kid's going to be a very good NHLer. He's not a problem player. He's not lazy. He just has to learn to play a kind of game he's never really had to play, and at the highest level. It's a process. It was always going to be a process. Nothing has really changed since the moment we drafted Mantha. There was always going to be an adjustment period.

Edited by Dabura

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Mantha's season was, perhaps, a bit disappointing. His game still needs work. But the Wings knew what they were getting when they drafted him. They knew he was going to be a bit of a project. Anyone who'd watched him play knew he was going to be a bit of a project. He was never going to make the team out of last year's camp. At most, he might've earned a couple games with the big club towards the end of the regular season. He needed to learn defense. He needed to learn how to protect the puck against men. He needed to learn how to emerge from a brutal scrum with possession of the puck. He needed to learn how to operate with much less time and space and civility than he'd enjoyed in the QMJHL. His game was weighted wildly towards the offensive side of things. That had to change in a big way, and that's not a change you make in half a season. And that's saying nothing of the broken leg.

For all these reasons and more, you can't say his season was "very, very, very disappointing." You can barely say it was disappointing. He was in for a tough season even before he'd broken his leg. All things considered, 15 goals and 33 points in 62 games, with limited power play time and third-line minutes, is a pretty good year. If the hype surrounding Mantha hadn't been so absurdly huge, no one would have a problem with his season. We'd be saying he needs another year, and that that's no big deal because it's to be expected with a 20-year-old who's never had to play defense or compete against men.

But none of that really seems to mean much to you, which I don't get. The way you see it, Mantha sucked this year, and it wasn't because of the injury, it was because he sucked. And if someone tries to "use the injury as an excuse" for his "poor play," that line of reasoning doesn't hold up, because it's "100% speculation." Even though saying the injury had nothing to do with his performance is equally speculative and, in fact, much less reasonable. Because, which sounds more plausible: that breaking his leg right before his first NHL training camp and spending the first part of his first AHL season unable to do much of anything in the way of physical conditioning A) had a significant impact on his season and should be taken into account when reviewing his season and the progress he made (or didn't make), or B) had no impact whatsoever on his season and should not be taken into account when reviewing his season and the progress he made (or didn't make)?

He needs to be better away from the puck. He needs to compete harder. He needs to improve in some key areas. No one's more aware of this than the player himself. But I don't see the need for trashing him. I'm not sure most people appreciate how tough it is to go from being a big fish in the QMJHL (which is pretty much a terrible league) to a boy among men in the AHL, especially when you were such a big fish that you were never really asked (or taught!) how to play AHL/NHL-level defense and your shifts would often stretch to 120 seconds long.

I don't see the basis for saying he sucked. I don't see how comparing his first few games as a Griffin to Tyler Bertuzzi's first few games as a Griffin really tells us anything. It's sort of like the Franzen-versus-Chris Neil thing. Franzen doesn't play with Chris Neil's "intensity" and "edge" and "physicality." But Neil doesn't have Franzen's skill, talent, skating, hockey IQ, scoring prowess, etc. Bertuzzi's game, at this time, is more complete than Mantha's. So is Landon Ferraro's. But Mantha's strengths can't be taught or instilled, while the things he needs to learn can. Same deal as Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen - except, Mantha's going to become a full-time Wing at 21 or 22 years of age, versus the standard 23 or 24. Because 1) he's that talented, 2) the things he needs to work on are things that virtually all 20-year-old snipers need to work on, and 3) the Wings are the best at taking raw talent and sculpting it into a rounded NHL player.

The kid's going to be a very good NHLer. He's not a problem player. He's not lazy. He just has to learn to play a kind of game he's never really had to play, and at the highest level. It's a process. It was always going to be a process. Nothing has really changed since the moment we drafted Mantha. There was always going to be an adjustment period.

The narrative from Mantha and the team going into the season was that he had a shot, and was going to compete for a chance, with the big club. An injury ended that chance, but i doubt he would have made it anyway. As I've already stated throughout this thread I though that expectation was too high from the get go. However, with his size and talent, I fully expected him to play a larger role with the Griffins. This is a blue chip prospect we're talking about it. The expectations ARE higher for him than other players.

I've already said I'm not ruling out the role that an injury played. Sitting with an injury can effect conditioning and screw up his rhythm during a transition year. But we have no reports that he played injured or had a nagging injury of any kind. And it would have been really dumb to play a kid his age on an injury, or unconditioned enough to get an injury. The Red Wings/Griffins are not that dumb.

He is lazy. Watch him play. I don't think he does it consciously, but he does not move his feet away from the puck on offense or defense for much of the time. I'm not trashing him, I'm telling you what I saw. All the scouting reports said he played an uninspired game in the QMJHL, and that's exactly what I saw of him with the Griffs. It's the style of game he's always played and he's still playing it. Which is why he only earned 3rd line minutes. Suddenly acting as if this style of play is because he's injured is a cop out.

It's like saying: "Well if Ericsson hadn't gotten injured last year, he would have played more physical"

No he wouldn't have, because that's not how Ericsson plays when injured or healthy.

I will be very happy if he turns his game around and stays healthy next year and lights it up. But I'm not going to pretend like this wasn't a disappoint for him, as a player, and for the organization. Devellano used a few too many very's, but he's right... for a player that was hyped (and deservedly so) he was extremely underwhelming/ frustrating to watch this past season. Simple as that.

I think I'm being pretty honest and fair with assessment here. Even Krsmith and all his Griffin watching expierence agrees he plays an uninspired game. I still have hope for the kid though.

Edited by number9

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