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DickieDunn

Kronwall

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I think he's great considering what role he's been forced into since Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart left. If he had someone like Seabrook or Stralman he would play elite.

Elite players don't need others to make them elite. The truely elite players in every sport make others around them better. That is very much part of the description of being elite.

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I think he's great considering what role he's been forced into since Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart left. If he had someone like Seabrook or Stralman he would play elite.

Elite players don't need others to make them elite. The truely elite players in every sport make others around them better. That is very much part of the description of being elite.

Nobody says he's elite. There's elite, who are Norris candidates, then #1 level guys, who are at the top of the league but not quite elite.

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I admit that I get caught up in labeling as #1 or not, but my main thinking on this one is this.....I'm not in love with a D group if he is the best on the team. If the other 5 were all really good, not a big deal, but it never works that way.

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I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something

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Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite.

I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner.

Drew Doughty

Duncan Keith

Alex Pietrangelo

Erik Karlsson

Shea Weber

Ryan Suter

Kris Letang

P.K. Subban

Keith Yandle

Oliver Ekman-Larsson

Ryan McDonaugh

Mark Giordano

Brent Burns

Dustin Byfuglien

John Carlson

Roman Josi

Kevin Shattenkirk

Denis Wideman

That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense.

Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be.

Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot.

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Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite.

I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner.

Drew Doughty

Duncan Keith

Alex Pietrangelo

Erik Karlsson

Shea Weber

Ryan Suter

Kris Letang

P.K. Subban

Keith Yandle

Oliver Ekman-Larsson

Ryan McDonaugh

Mark Giordano

Brent Burns

Dustin Byfuglien

John Carlson

Roman Josi

Kevin Shattenkirk

Denis Wideman

That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense.

Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be.

Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot.

Some of those guys are not clearly better. They might put up points, but their defense is weaker. Burns in particular, he should be a forward instead of a d-man.

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Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite.

I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner.

Drew Doughty

Duncan Keith

Alex Pietrangelo

Erik Karlsson

Shea Weber

Ryan Suter

Kris Letang

P.K. Subban

Keith Yandle - No

Oliver Ekman-Larsson

Ryan McDonaugh

Mark Giordano

Brent Burns - No

Dustin Byfuglien - No

John Carlson - No

Roman Josi

Kevin Shattenkirk

Denis Wideman - No

That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense.

Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be.

Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot.

Did you forget the defense part of the position? The guys I edited are definitely not all around better then Kronwall and there is a still a couple other questionable ones on there as well.

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Some of those guys are not clearly better. They might put up points, but their defense is weaker. Burns in particular, he should be a forward instead of a d-man.

No, no. Put any scoring forward on defense and they'll be a better defenseman than Kronwall because they will score more points.

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Kronner does not have a capable slap shot from the point, therefore he is not elite.

I'm kind of kidding there, but IMO here are d-men who are better than Kronner.

Drew Doughty

Duncan Keith

Alex Pietrangelo

Erik Karlsson

Shea Weber

Ryan Suter

Kris Letang

P.K. Subban

Keith Yandle

Oliver Ekman-Larsson

Ryan McDonaugh

Mark Giordano

Brent Burns

Dustin Byfuglien

John Carlson

Roman Josi

Kevin Shattenkirk

Denis Wideman

That's 18 I'm comfortable with and then you can add Justin Faulk, Victor Hedman, Dougie Hamilton, Jake Muzzin, Aaron Ekblad, Tyson Barrie, and T.J. Brodie to pass him soon. Admittedly my list is offense-heavy, but our blueline produces zero offense.

Kronner is never going to be what we wanted him to be.

Seriously though, the guy has a pretty weak slap shot.

More that you missed: Seabrook, Dekeyser, Hjilmarlsson (spelling), Boychek, Niskenen, Phanueaf, Jones, Markov, and Edler.

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I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something

Since you asked:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th.

Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings:

KFQ 41st

Zidlicky 58th

Smith 84th

Dekeyser 86th

Ericsson 91st

Kronwall 117th

Using fenwick:

KFQ 63rd

Zidlicky 66th

Dekeyser 70th

Smith 89th

Ericsson 90th

Kronwall 117th

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Now to be fair to Kronwall, where he is really good is on the PP. Of all the Dmen that had at least 100 mins of PP time, he was 12th in the league. Dekeyser was 41st, our next best. But Nick had over 230 mins of PP time and DD had barely 100, which does impact the rankings.

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I find it hard to believe in this day and age of advanced analytics, there aren't some defensive stats to show some sort of rankings for guys. Even if they have some reliance on pairings there has to be something

Since you asked:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th.

Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings:

KFQ 41st

Zidlicky 58th

Smith 84th

Dekeyser 86th

Ericsson 91st

Kronwall 117th

Using fenwick:

KFQ 63rd

Zidlicky 66th

Dekeyser 70th

Smith 89th

Ericsson 90th

Kronwall 117th

That's all you need to know about the value of Fenwick and Corsi.

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Since you asked:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=defense&minutes=1000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Follow that link. For the 2014/15 season, of the Dmen that played at least 1000 mins of 5 on 5 hockey, Kronwall is 70th in the NHL. He is 3rd on the RW's behind Dekeyser at 27th and KFQ at 67th. Zidlicky was 99th and Ericsson was 107th. Smith was 113th.

Now if you use just the Corsi rankings here is the rankings:

KFQ 41st

Zidlicky 58th

Smith 84th

Dekeyser 86th

Ericsson 91st

Kronwall 117th

Using fenwick:

KFQ 63rd

Zidlicky 66th

Dekeyser 70th

Smith 89th

Ericsson 90th

Kronwall 117th

What Corsi/fenwick stat are you looking at exactly? There are many and each paint a different picture.

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The ones that prove Kronwall is at best a 3rd pairing defender.

Duh.

Nope. I have said he is a second pair guy. Have since Lids retired. Just because he was forced to become a top pair guy, doens't mean he is able to actually do it. Kronwall is a second pair Dman/power play specialist. Which is fine. It is also how he is paid. Now if we all understand that we can then build from it.

Now to tie this into another thought. Drafting and developing Dmen. For whatever the reasons, Dmen talk longer to develop in general. Teams only have control of guys for 3 years in the minors before waivers. This makes developing your BL corp internally tough to do. Not impossible. If we go back in our own recent history and look at the period we were a dominate team 95-09, we had older Dmen that were mainly picked up from other teams. Yes we drafted Lids, Vladdy, and Fischer, but Coffey, Rouse, Ramsey, Fetisov, Murphy, Schneider, Rafalski, Hatcher, Krupp, the 2 samuelsson's, Chelios, etc... were all UFA's or trades.

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Nope. I have said he is a second pair guy. Have since Lids retired. Just because he was forced to become a top pair guy, doens't mean he is able to actually do it. Kronwall is a second pair Dman/power play specialist. Which is fine. It is also how he is paid. Now if we all understand that we can then build from it.

Now to tie this into another thought. Drafting and developing Dmen. For whatever the reasons, Dmen talk longer to develop in general. Teams only have control of guys for 3 years in the minors before waivers. This makes developing your BL corp internally tough to do. Not impossible. If we go back in our own recent history and look at the period we were a dominate team 95-09, we had older Dmen that were mainly picked up from other teams. Yes we drafted Lids, Vladdy, and Fischer, but Coffey, Rouse, Ramsey, Fetisov, Murphy, Schneider, Rafalski, Hatcher, Krupp, the 2 samuelsson's, Chelios, etc... were all UFA's or trades.

Who is the second Samuelsson that played D? We had Ulf for a hiccup. but I dont remember anyone else. I assume you are not talking about Mikael, as he was a forward.

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