The return of The Mule?

[T.Low 1,011]

I made it 12 seconds in...

[WingedWheel91 271]

I don't know what games you guys were watching but Jurco was absolutely awful last season. He was ok defensively? But not better than anyone on our 4th line. He was ok offensively? But not better than anyone who wasn't named Drew Miller.

I'm not saying that he will be a total bust or to give up on him completely, I'm saying trade him while he still has some value before he turns into the next Ville Leino.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

Well you weren't the one regularly insinuating that Franzen was a homosexual malingerer either. But that didn't stop plenty of people from doing so.

Franzen, more than any other player on our team, has been singled out for personal criticisms which have nothing whatsoever to do with his play on the ice. It's odd to see those very same folks showing concern for his personal well being now.

Anybody can be criticized (justifiably) for their play. But much of the Franzen hate has gone WAY beyond level headed scrutiny.

Welcome to the internet. That's only partial sarcasm. This is what people do on the internet...they take one thing and obsess over it, and when someone takes it to another level, people feel the need to outdo it.

[kipwinger 8,522]

I don't know what games you guys were watching but Jurco was absolutely awful last season. He was ok defensively? But not better than anyone on our 4th line. He was ok offensively? But not better than anyone who wasn't named Drew Miller.

I'm not saying that he will be a total bust or to give up on him completely, I'm saying trade him while he still has some value before he turns into the next Ville Leino.

Or before he turns into the next Justin Abdelkader?

[gcom007 1,465]

People really want to give up completely on Jurco already? I get the frustration in the moment, but come on... Is it really so hard to think long-term just a little bit?

[kipwinger 8,522]

People really want to give up completely on Jurco already? I get the frustration in the moment, but come on... Is it really so hard to think long-term just a little bit?

Nah dude, he sucks. Cut him. Make him trade bait. Cut bait and trade him. etc.

Why?

Because one time, there was this guy named Ville Leino. And get this, Ville Leino was lazy, arrogant, and entitled. So therefore, he sucked. And Jurco wasn't really very good this year either. So chances are, he's probably like Ville Leino. Because both of them weren't very good, for totally different reasons.

Make sense now?

[Buppy 1,720]

Or before he turns into the next Justin Abdelkader?

Wait four years for him to become a somewhat decent complimentary scorer? Yeah, I'd still trade him.

I'm hoping he turns into the next Franzen.

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

Can we just buy Franzen out and be done with him and his contract or did we miss that opportunity?

[rick zombo 3,739]

Nah dude, he sucks. Cut him. Make him trade bait. Cut bait and trade him. etc.

Why?

Because one time, there was this guy named Ville Leino. And get this, Ville Leino was lazy, arrogant, and entitled. So therefore, he sucked. And Jurco wasn't really very good this year either. So chances are, he's probably like Ville Leino. Because both of them weren't very good, for totally different reasons.

Make sense now?

Don't forget about Europe.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Wait four years for him to become a somewhat decent complimentary scorer? Yeah, I'd still trade him.

I'm hoping he turns into the next Franzen.

What would you get for him in trade that would be any better than him being a "complimentary scorer" in four years?

He's not exactly overflowing with value right now. He's big, fast, good defensively, hits, and has strong possession numbers. If, in four years (when he'll only be 26), he can contribute 40-50 points around the crease, he'll be worth FAR more than anything you'd have gotten by trading him now.

As far as the Franzen comparison, I agree. But we've already got Mantha for that.

Edited June 2, 2015 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,522]

Don't forget about Europe.

Very good point. EUROPE!

[rick zombo 3,739]

Wait four years for him to become a somewhat decent complimentary scorer? Yeah, I'd still trade him.

I'm hoping he turns into the next Franzen.

Yeah, and based on the way most LGWers treat Franzen, people would still want to trade him.

[WingedWheel91 271]

Kipwinger - always seems to be you...

Jurco had strong possession numbers? He had 3 goals on 92 shots? Do you realize how bad that is? Possession means nothing without production.

But it's ok because Jurco is so good defensively? Is this just because his offensive numbers were a joke? Do you realize he was the only (regular) forward on the Detroit Red Wings who spent 0 minutes and 0 seconds on the Penalty Kill this season? This tells me (outside of Stephen Weiss) he's actually the worst defensive forward on our team.

And your comparison to Abdelkader is ridiculous, they are completely different players. Abdelkader's coming out party was in the Stanley Cup finals against Pittsburgh... He was inserted into the lineup because he could actually kill penalties (and score shorthanded) while manipulating the game with his physicality. I don't know if you're related to Jurco or something but he isn't this physical specimen you seem to think he is. It's playoff hockey pal, everyone hits.

Edited June 2, 2015 by WingedWheel91

[Rivalred 630]

Lafontaine, Lindros, Pronger...: retire already

[kipwinger 8,522]

Kipwinger - always seems to be you...

Jurco had strong possession numbers? He had 3 goals on 92 shots? Do you realize how bad that is? Possession means nothing without production.

But it's ok because Jurco is so good defensively? Is this just because his offensive numbers were a joke? Do you realize he was the only (regular) forward on the Detroit Red Wings who spent 0 minutes and 0 seconds on the Penalty Kill this season? This tells me (outside of Stephen Weiss) he's actually the worst defensive forward on our team.

And your comparison to Abdelkader is ridiculous, they are completely different players. Abdelkader's coming out party was in the Stanley Cup finals against Pittsburgh... He was inserted into the lineup because he could actually kill penalties (and score shorthanded) while manipulating the game with his physicality. I don't know if you're related to Jurco or something but he isn't this physical specimen you seem to think he is. It's playoff hockey pal, everyone hits.

Wow, I don't know where to begin. First, possession means a lot, regardless of production. Which is why the emphasis on those metrics is sweeping the league. If you can go get loose pucks, or keep pucks when you have them, then EVERYBODY on your team benefits (regardless of your individual production). Jurco does this. Guys like Miller, Glendening, Pulkkinen, Weiss, Andersson, don't.

Secondly, being on the penalty kill is not necessarily indicative of your defensive play. For example: Brendan Smith sees a reasonable amount of time on the PK despite being AWFUL defensively at even strength. Being good at one does not mean you'd be good at the other.

Finally, Justin Abdelkader followed up his "coming out party" with 6 points in 50 games the following year. You'd probably have advocated trading him too. And it would have been just as silly.

Jurco is young. He had a bad year offensively. However, he did a lot of other things very well, as evidenced by the fact that Babcock lobbied to keep him in Detroit instead of send him down to GR, AND Babs used him over guys like Weiss and Pulkkinen (who were better offensively) in the playoffs.

If he sucked so much, and if he provided nothing at all, then why did Babcock keep playing him? It's not like he didn't have other options.

[Buppy 1,720]

Yeah, and based on the way most LGWers treat Franzen, people would still want to trade him.

No doubt, and that's part of the fun. But really that was just a subtle attempt to turn the thread back on topic.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Wow, I don't know where to begin. First, possession means a lot, regardless of production. Which is why the emphasis on those metrics is sweeping the league. If you can go get loose pucks, or keep pucks when you have them, then EVERYBODY on your team benefits (regardless of your individual production). Jurco does this. Guys like Miller, Glendening, Pulkkinen, Weiss, Andersson, don't.

Secondly, being on the penalty kill is not necessarily indicative of your defensive play. For example: Brendan Smith sees a reasonable amount of time on the PK despite being AWFUL defensively at even strength. Being good at one does not mean you'd be good at the other.

Finally, Justin Abdelkader followed up his "coming out party" with 6 points in 50 games the following year. You'd probably have advocated trading him too. And it would have been just as silly.

Jurco is young. He had a bad year offensively. However, he did a lot of other things very well, as evidenced by the fact that Babcock lobbied to keep him in Detroit instead of send him down to GR, AND Babs used him over guys like Weiss and Pulkkinen (who were better offensively) in the playoffs.

If he sucked so much, and if he provided nothing at all, then why did Babcock keep playing him? It's not like he didn't have other options.

I don't disagree about Jurco but I think you're lumping too many different guys together who you're saying have poor possession.

If I'm looking at the stats right, Pulkkinen actually has good numbers, but then you have to factor in he gets most of his starts in the offensive zone (2nd only to Abdelkader, which surprised me). Given the eyeball test, I agree. Pulkkinen has poor possession. And I'm guessing his corsi his also padded given he fires the puck towards the net any chance he gets.

But Glendening is 2nd lowest on the team in offensive starts (to Miller). So it's not that surprising his corsi doesn't look great. But the reason he and Miller and Andersson got so many defensive zone starts is their ability to possess the puck and get it out of their end. It's why they got so much love from Babcock. I'm not saying they're Zetterberg or anything, just that they're not bad.

Like I said, I agree about Jurco overall. It's too soon to cut bait. I guess my main nitpicking is about corsi and it's accuracy in representing a single player's puck possession ability.

[Buppy 1,720]

What would you get for him in trade that would be any better than him being a "complimentary scorer" in four years? ...

A roster spot.

[kipwinger 8,522]

I don't disagree about Jurco but I think you're lumping too many different guys together who you're saying have poor possession.

If I'm looking at the stats right, Pulkkinen actually has good numbers, but then you have to factor in he gets most of his starts in the offensive zone (2nd only to Abdelkader, which surprised me). Given the eyeball test, I agree. Pulkkinen has poor possession. And I'm guessing his corsi his also padded given he fires the puck towards the net any chance he gets.

But Glendening is 2nd lowest on the team in offensive starts (to Miller). So it's not that surprising his corsi doesn't look great. But the reason he and Miller and Andersson got so many defensive zone starts is their ability to possess the puck and get it out of their end. It's why they got so much love from Babcock. I'm not saying they're Zetterberg or anything, just that they're not bad.

Like I said, I agree about Jurco overall. It's too soon to cut bait. I guess my main nitpicking is about corsi and it's accuracy in representing a single player's puck possession ability.

I completely agree about the importance of zone starts as a mediating variable when looking at Corsi, I've mentioned that same point many times when discussing B. Smith.

I only brought up those guys to compare him to other third and fourth liners. And because Jurco played quite a lot on the fourth line this season. So while his zone starts probably weren't as tough as Glendening or Miller, they were probably AS tough as Andersson's, and considerably tougher than Weiss or Pulkkinen.

But agreed. And point taken.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I completely agree about the importance of zone starts as a mediating variable when looking at Corsi, I've mentioned that same point many times when discussing B. Smith.

I only brought up those guys to compare him to other third and fourth liners. And because Jurco played quite a lot on the fourth line this season. So while his zone starts probably weren't as tough as Glendening or Miller, they were probably AS tough as Andersson's, and considerably tougher than Weiss or Pulkkinen.

But agreed. And point taken.

And Abby's zone starts bolsters your argument about that comparison. Abdelkader had a great year, but I never would've guessed he led the team in offensive zone starts. Jurco, by comparison, had the 4th fewest offensive zone starts behind Miller, Glendening, and Andersson.

[kipwinger 8,522]

And Abby's zone starts bolsters your argument about that comparison. Abdelkader had a great year, but I never would've guessed he led the team in offensive zone starts. Jurco, by comparison, had the 4th fewest offensive zone starts behind Miller, Glendening, and Andersson.

Knee jerk reaction I probably wouldn't have thought that about Abby. But when you think about it, having a fourth line that is as defensively responsible as ours was, allows you to keep your top six off the ice in the d-zone. And if you look at (for example) Glendening's TOI and faceoffs taken, it's probably much higher than most fourth line centers. Which suggests that he was probably put out there to win the faceoff and get the puck out of the defensive zone ANY time there was a d-zone faceoff.

Which is not to say that Abby, or any of the top six, was being sheltered. Rather, why send them out when one of your best defensive players is also one of your best faceoff guys? Just use him, and save your top six the effort. I bet (had they kept track) that Draper's possession stats would have looked a lot like Glendening's, and our top six guys (in the glory years) would have had more o-zone starts than you'd imagine given how good they were defensively.

[barabbas16 499]

That's bogus. You're measuring his worth entirely by offensive output, which I agree he didn't produce. But that belies the fact that he's very good defensively, he hits, he's fast and hard to knock off the puck, he wins board battles. He was a very quality possession player given his role. His possession metrics were noticeably better than our other 3rd and 4th liners.

He wasn't completely worthless. He did a lot for the team. He just didn't score. In that way he's very similar to Abby and Helm in their first few years.

Measuring a guy's value based solely on their point totals (particularly in a non-scoring role) is only an indication that your "analysis" is incredibly unsophisticated. Not that the player is "completely worthless".

You, Bill, and Ted are all welcome to disagree with me, of course. To me, Jurco was the biggest disappointment for the Red Wings that season. Yes, I expected more points out of him than I did from Abdelkader and Helm in their first few years. Didn't you? Didn't everyone? Am I incorrect in saying that Jurco has always been viewed as a future top six forward.... whereas that was not the case with Abdelkader or Helm? I don't want and the Wings don't need Jurco to be another "quality possession player given his role" who is "good defensively" and produces no offense. Those guys grow on trees. Ferraro and Callahan can come in and do that. Glendening, Miller, and Andersson do that. Jurco is supposed to be and should be better than that. And he wasn't. At all. Yes, maybe some of my disappointment is the result of higher expectations for him on my part than some other players... but I don't care. He was hugely disappointing and not at all "excellent."

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Can we just buy Franzen out and be done with him and his contract or did we miss that opportunity?

I think they'd get hit with a cap recapture penalty on top of the ca hit for buying him out, so no, it's not a real option. Even without the recapture penalty, I don't think it's feasible. They also can't buy out an injured player.

You, Bill, and Ted are all welcome to disagree with me, of course. To me, Jurco was the biggest disappointment for the Red Wings that season. Yes, I expected more points out of him than I did from Abdelkader and Helm in their first few years. Didn't you? Didn't everyone? Am I incorrect in saying that Jurco has always been viewed as a future top six forward.... whereas that was not the case with Abdelkader or Helm? I don't want and the Wings don't need Jurco to be another "quality possession player given his role" who is "good defensively" and produces no offense. Those guys grow on trees. Ferraro and Callahan can come in and do that. Glendening, Miller, and Andersson do that. Jurco is supposed to be and should be better than that. And he wasn't. At all. Yes, maybe some of my disappointment is the result of higher expectations for him on my part than some other players... but I don't care. He was hugely disappointing and not at all "excellent."

Abdelkader was projected as a potential second line player when he was drafted.

it is far too early to give up on Jurco. He has good speed and size, he uses his size well, and despite his lack of production he still has enough skill to make him a probable top 6 winger in the near future.

Edited June 2, 2015 by DickieDunn

[kipwinger 8,522]

You, Bill, and Ted are all welcome to disagree with me, of course. To me, Jurco was the biggest disappointment for the Red Wings that season. Yes, I expected more points out of him than I did from Abdelkader and Helm in their first few years. Didn't you? Didn't everyone? Am I incorrect in saying that Jurco has always been viewed as a future top six forward.... whereas that was not the case with Abdelkader or Helm? I don't want and the Wings don't need Jurco to be another "quality possession player given his role" who is "good defensively" and produces no offense. Those guys grow on trees. Ferraro and Callahan can come in and do that. Glendening, Miller, and Andersson do that. Jurco is supposed to be and should be better than that. And he wasn't. At all. Yes, maybe some of my disappointment is the result of higher expectations for him on my part than some other players... but I don't care. He was hugely disappointing and not at all "excellent."

I don't think anybody would be happy if that's all he ever turned out to be.

Babs commented several times throughout the season that he was incredibly happy with Jurco's game, and that he needed to continue to have good habits and his offense would come. Which is exactly how I feel about him.

If he'd had the opportunity to "over ripen" like Nyquist or Tatar, and enter the league at 24 or 25, after several years in GR, then I'd expect more out of him too. But he didn't. So his development will be slower than guys like that. It's to be expected if you're being even remotely reasonable in your assessment.

If he still looks like this next year, or the year after, then talk to me. He's played less than 100 NHL hockey games. Have even the slightest amount of patience.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Jurco did disappoint last season, but he was also forced into a role he has never played in his entire career. He was expected to be a grinder, when he simply isn't that type of player. Jurco is a future top 6 winger. It's absolutely crazy how quick fans are willing to give up on a player. The kid is still only 22 years old and should have spent another season in Grand Rapids. If he did, he would have been just as, or even more highly regarded than Pulkkinen or Athanasiou. Jurco has a ton of skill, it's only a matter of time before he breaks out. Jurco is probably one of the most relieved guys on the team, that Babcock is gone, along with Weiss and Smith. I have full confidence that Blashill will get Jurco going, and producing at a much higher clip than he did this past season.