Retire Sergei Fedorov’s Jersey Immediately

[roboturner 562]

Can you photoshop that into an existing picture of the currently retired numbers? I think it could be helpful to have a visual as to what's being asked for and whether or not it 'fits in' with the rest of them. Actually that would be useful for the rest of the 'debatables' as well.

[kickazz 5,459]

I would say no to all of those except Datsyuk (possibly). Dats is a special player.

I don't remember much of Feds playing. I know he was good, but I'm curious as to how he compares to Pavel.

Fedorov was the better complete player. Better shooter, better goal scorer, better on ice vision, Fedorov was also the second fastest skater in the world for a while. (Fastest imo since he should have won by technicality at the al star game). So yeah, Feds better overall, by a long shot. Datsyuk has the better hands and possibly better pick pocketer.

Feds could also play every position unlike Datsyuk. I think on our current roster the only player who has played each corner is Zetterberg. Z consistently plays center and left wing. On occasion plays right wing and often times he plays on either left or right corners of blue line during the powerplays. Feds was sort of like that too under Bowman. Dats plays center and on rare occasions left wing.

Edited June 13, 2015 by kickazz

[GoWings1905 2,694]

This forum has sunk to a new low thanks to the likes of you.

Datsyuk is an amazing player, one of the best currently playing in the world today. Any sane hockey fan or expert OR PLAYER would agree.

You missed the point entirely. It isn't about Pav being a great player -- he clearly is, but the standard for having your number retired by the Red Wings organization. This isn't like the Avalanche putting up Bourque's or the Pistons retiring practically everyone from the Bad Boys Era. You have to be really special to get the ultimate honor from the Red Wings and I like it that way.

I actually agree with Buppy. No to Fedorov, Osgood, Z or Pav. I love all those guys, but they aren't Yzerman or Lidstrom.

[Echolalia 2,961]

These threads pop up periodically, regarding either Fedorov, or Osgood, or Zetterberg, or whomever, and I always say the same thing: if there's enough hesitancy among part of the fan-base that a debate is even warranted, then the player in question probably shouldn't get their jersey retired. I can't speak for the legends from before my time, but as far as Yzerman and Lidstrom go, both cases were overwhelmingly unanimous.

[kickazz 5,459]

You missed the point entirely. It isn't about Pav being a great player -- he clearly is, but the standard for having your number retired by the Red Wings organization. This isn't like the Avalanche putting up Bourque's or the Pistons retiring practically everyone from the Bad Boys Era. You have to be really special to get the ultimate honor from the Red Wings and I like it that way.

I actually agree with Buppy. No to Fedorov, Osgood, Z or Pav. I love all those guys, but they aren't Yzerman or Lidstrom.

Harder to get your jersey retired as a Red Wing than to even be on the Hall of Fame ballot.

Agree with Buppy as well. I just personally think Z or D might have a better shot at it (if their careers end well, if they pass the 1000 point mark, if Z shatters the playoff record, if they win another cup etc etc.) than Feds because of Feds history with the org sort of going down the toilet. They also have a few years left to add accomplishments on to their legacies.

Other than that yeah, you really need to be a legend status to get it.

Edited June 13, 2015 by kickazz

[roboturner 562]

Heroes get remembered, but legends never die.

[paulwoodsfan 52]

Have to say I'm surprised how many posters are opposed to the rafters for fedorov, datsyuk and zetterberg. IMO all three qualify: Feds as the most dynamic player of the 1990s and a key cog on three Cup champs; Dats as the most talented player of his generation and respected/idolized by his peers; and Z as a captain and leader and Conn Smythe trophy winner.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Have to say I'm surprised how many posters are opposed to the rafters for fedorov, datsyuk and zetterberg. IMO all three qualify: Feds as the most dynamic player of the 1990s and a key cog on three Cup champs; Dats as the most talented player of his generation and respected/idolized by his peers; and Z as a captain and leader and Conn Smythe trophy winner.

None of those posters would disagree with your description of those players. It just so happens that the standards in Detroit for retiring numbers is higher.

[kickazz 5,459]

Have to say I'm surprised how many posters are opposed to the rafters for fedorov, datsyuk and zetterberg. IMO all three qualify: Feds as the most dynamic player of the 1990s and a key cog on three Cup champs; Dats as the most talented player of his generation and respected/idolized by his peers; and Z as a captain and leader and Conn Smythe trophy winner.

No one is opposed. We love those guys and it would be awsome to have #13 and#40 next to each other as a constant reminder of the "euro twin" era. But its the organization that has set standards that are extremely high.

[marcaractac 3,963]

I have zero doubts #13 and #40 will be in the rafters at some point

[kliq 3,755]

I have zero doubts #13 and #40 will be in the rafters at some point

Agreed. Like the players that are up there, as time goes by people will start to appreciate them like they deserve.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

Agreed. Like the players that are up there, as time goes by people will start to appreciate them like they deserve.

They have everything going for them but imo they need another cup. Z has to prove himself as a captain and lead the team to the cup just as the other guys on the rafters did. Datsyuk already has the edge because he is more of a generational player than Hank is. But if #13 does get retired so will #40. The two players legacy is too intertwined for only one to go up. But then again, that fact itself may be the reason they DON'T get retired.

[kliq 3,755]

They have everything going for them but imo they need another cup. Z has to prove himself as a captain and lead the team to the cup just as the other guys on the rafters did. Datsyuk already has the edge because he is more of a generational player than Hank is. But if #13 does get retired so will #40. The two players legacy is too intertwined for only one to go up. But then again, that fact itself may be the reason they DON'T get retired.

I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league.

[number9 3,297]

I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league.

Nyquist and Tatar are the new Z and D. Mantha and Larkin are the mew Y and forward. It's so cute i caN Hardly look away

[kickazz 5,459]

I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league.

yzerman and lidstrom played in somewhat similar eras to the euro twins, the twins will have to get some more accomplishments under their belt. Especially Zetterberg. He's going to have to prove himself further as a captain. It's doable. Yzerman did well in the 2002 cup run and he was 37 years old. His leadership was epic. Played with a bad knee and scored at a point per game pace those playoffs. Incredible.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

yzerman and lidstrom played in somewhat similar eras to the euro twins, the twins will have to get some more accomplishments under their belt. Especially Zetterberg. He's going to have to prove himself further as a captain. It's doable. Yzerman did well in the 2002 cup run and he was 37 years old. His leadership was epic. Played with a bad knee and scored at a point per game pace those playoffs. Incredible.

I wasnt comparing them to Yzerman or Lidstrom, I was comparing them to Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel. Datsyuk deserves to have his jersey retired no questions asked as the guy is a generational player. It seems the biggest argument against him is "If you retire D, then you have to retire Z, and Z doesn't deserve it"

I admit I am not 100% sold on retiring Zetterberg's jersey, but I would rather retire both then retire neither. Datsyuk deserves to be honored, and shouldn't be punished because Zetterberg is borderline. (which I cant see the Wings doing, its not their way)

Yzerman is my favourite player of all time, my idol growing up, a great leader, and an unbelievable generational talent, but lets be realistic here, in 2002 he played on an all-star team literally surrounded my legends and future hall of famers. Not fair to say Zetterberg needs to do what he did. In 1997/98, the roster Yzerman had around him was also not like anything Zetterberg has played with. Yzerman played in an era where Ilitch could spend 20 million more then everyone else, Zetterberg doesn't. While Yzerman is without a question a greater player then Zetterberg and a true legend, BUT to put Yzerman's accomplishments on Zetterberg is unrealistic and unfair.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

Never once did I compare them to Yzerman or Lidstrom. I am comparing them to Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel. Datsyuk deserves to have his jersey retired IMO no questions asked. The guy is a generational player. It seems the biggest argument against him is "If you retire D, then you have to retire Z, and Z doesnt deserve it"

Zetterberg I admit I am not 100% sold on, but I do see them being retired together.

Yzerman is my favourite player of all time, was my idol growing up, is a great leader, and an unbelievable generational talent, but lets be realistic here, in 2002 he played on an all-star team literally surrounded my legends and future hall of famers. Not fair to say Zetterberg needs to do what he did. Yzerman played in an era where Ilitch could spend 20 million more then everyone else, Zetterberg doesnt. While Yzerman is without a question a greater player then Zetterberg, to put Yzerman's accomplishments on Zetterberg is unrealistic.

In your previous post you said "I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league."

Thus the eras played in are incomparable. Yet the second post you say you're comparing Z and D to Delveccio, Howe, Lindsay etc? (BTW it's not impossible to win tons of cups in this era. See Blackhawks).

BTW, I never said you compared them to Yzerman or Lidstrom,. But you proposed that on one hand you have an era of 30 teams and on the other you had "6" teams. Ok so then the only ones close to being compared "era" wise are Yzerman/Lidstrom.

Additionally, no one is trying to "put Yzerman's accomplishments on Zetterberg". The only point is that Z has time to add more to his legacy, Yzerman did it at 37 and Z is still 34. But getting that captaincy status, Z needs to do something with it. He needs to show he can win a cup with that C.

Regardless.. we've already made the points before in the previous pages. The standards are set very high to have your jersey retired. Being a "generational" player as Datsyuk is doesn't just cut it. If that was the case then they would have retired Fedorov by now and probably Shanahan and Syd Howe. They didn't. That's because it's not just one "category", there's multiple facets. All jerseys retired have accomplished a lot; been generational players, contributed heavily to the city of Detroit, loved by the fans, organization, and were on good terms when they were here and most of all, they have commitment.

Like it or not if we do retire Z and D at this point it would be a lowering of the standards that have been set. They may be the first players with the lowest amounts of cups and accomplishments that would end up there. Now with another cup, it would solidify their case even further. Because the fact of the matter is, they have literally everything going for them (commitment, love by org/fans, generational players, leading by example, captaincy status for Z, Conn Smythe for Z, multiple Selkes for D, franchise records in points and the list goes on).

We have no clue how the euro twins careers will end. Many of us thought Fedorov was a shoe in for jersey retirement back in 2002. 13 years later this is now a debate.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

In your previous post you said "I think the cup argument is weak. Back when half the guys up there played there was 6 teams. Of course you are going to have more cups in a 6 team league then a 30 team league."

Thus the eras played in are incomparable. Yet the second post you say you're comparing Z and D to Delveccio, Howe, Lindsay etc? (BTW it's not impossible to win tons of cups in this era. See Blackhawks).

BTW, I never said you compared them to Yzerman or Lidstrom,. But you proposed that on one hand you have an era of 30 teams and on the other you had "6" teams. Ok so then the only ones close to being compared "era" wise are Yzerman/Lidstrom.

Additionally, no one is trying to "put Yzerman's accomplishments on Zetterberg". The only point is that Z has time to add more to his legacy, Yzerman did it at 37 and Z is still 34. But getting that captaincy status, Z needs to do something with it. He needs to show he can win a cup with that C.

Regardless.. we've already made the points before in the previous pages. The standards are set very high to have your jersey retired. Being a "generational" player as Datsyuk is doesn't just cut it. If that was the case then they would have retired Fedorov by now and probably Shanahan and Syd Howe. They didn't. That's because it's not just one "category", there's multiple facets. All jerseys retired have accomplished a lot; been generational players, contributed heavily to the city of Detroit, loved by the fans, organization, and were on good terms when they were here. Like it or not if we do retire Z and D at this point it would be a lowering of the standards that have been set. They may be the first players up there with the lowest amounts of cups and accomplishments that would end up there. Now with another cup, it would solidify their case even further. They have literally everything else going for them.

We have no clue how the euro twins careers will end. Many of us thought Fedorov was a shoe in for jersey retirement back in 2002. 13 years later this is now a debate.

I think you misunderstood me, my apologies if I was unclear. I'll clarify. I was comparing D & Z to Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel (I didn't say Howe, I am not sure where you got that from) in terms of how good of players they are. People always talk about how the bar is high and how the Wings have incredibly high standards, which they do. But then they will say that D & Z should not be retired because they are not at the level of Yzerman, Lidstrom or Howe (which they are not). My point with Datsyuk is that he is at the level of Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel. My point being, to have your jersey retired you need to be as good as the guys at the bottom of that list, not the top.

People are also saying that D & Z should not get their jersey's retired because they don't have as many cups as the others up there. Again, to me that argument is when comparing them to Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel (not Yzerman, Lidstrom & Howe) and IMO they only thing Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel have over Datsyuk is cups, which is why I think the cup argument is weak because there is no longer 6 teams. It was easy for players in that era to win a cup.

I never said its impossible to win multiple cups in this era, what I said was its much harder. Saying Chicago won two is true of course, but irrelevant to this conversation. Even if they win tomorrow, it doesn't take away that its harder to do now. Back then you could literally have every team in the league win the cup in any given decade. Team could easily go on runs and win 3,4,5 in a row, just look at Montreal.

Lets drop Zetterberg for this debate and the "both or neither aspect", because if I had to choose at this point I would lean towards Zetterberg not going up, all of the points I have made on this have really been about Datsyuk.

What I want to know is this.....please explain to me how retiring Datsyuk's jersey is "lowering the bar". How is he less deserving then Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel?

Datsyuk is a generational talent. He is loved within the community, he has won 2 cups in an era with 30 teams and 1 in an era with a salary cap, and he plays against the best players in the world unlike the other 3 that I named (which is not a shot at them, just the way hockey was back then). He has been voted the smartest player in hockey by his peers, and he has been voted the hardest to play against by his peers. Offensively the guy is capable of things that nobody else is, defensively he has won the second most Selke's (3) of all time. How is he "lowering the bar"? I would like to hear the argument of how Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel are at a higher level then him. Other then Abel winning a Hart which I admit is a strong case for him, I dont see it.

I have a feeling you agree with what I wrote, below is what you posted in the Ozzie/Feds thread. I have a feeling that what makes this such a difficult topic is the fact that Zetterberg doesn't really have the resume yet, and people connect them together. Tell me this......if Zetterberg publicly came out and said he didnt think he was deserving of having his jersey retired, and the question then became only about Datsyuk, would you vote yes, or no?

And then I brought Datsyuk as an example. He has accomplishments, loyalty, AND was/is a generational player. I basically wrapped up the post by saying Datsyuk is closer to the bar that was set than Feds and Ozzy were because he meets a lot more categories. Accomplishments, cups, generational player, loyalty/commitment, loved by the fans, loved by the organization, contributions to the city of Detroit, leader by example. Etc etc etc.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

What I want to know is this.....please explain to me how retiring Datsyuk's jersey is "lowering the bar". How is he less deserving then Delvecchio, Lindsey, and Abel?

Lindsay -

11 all star appearances

1 Art Ross trophy winner

4 stanley cups

Named 1st all star team 7 times

Lead league in goals, assists, and points in different seasons

Delveccio -

13 all star appearances

3 Lady Bing trophies

3 Stanley cups

25 seasons with the Red Wings - Played with no other team in the league

1281 total points in career

Abel -

Lead league in goals 48/49

3 All star appearances

3 Stanley cups

1 Hart Trophy

Each of them has more all star appearances (Abel had just as many), more stanley cups, has either an art ross or hart trophy, or passed the thousand point mark. The point is they've done something unique. Extremely unique.

Datsyuk hasn't won a Hart, an Art Ross, nor has he gotten to the "3 cups" mark. You're right, there weren't many teams and hence competition was less. But what's also true is the players now are more skilled and its a faster game and Datsyuk was born into this fast era and is a part of it. The league has changed but so has the skill set of the players.

Now just to play devils advocate- If Pav truly was a generational player (I personally believe he was in terms of his stick handling) then how come he wasn't elected to the all star game more than 4 times in his 13 seasons? How come he was never named onto the 1st all star team? Now the question arises, was he truly generational then? What really defines generational?

Fedorov had 6 all star appearances, named 1st all star team, won 3 cups, 2 Selkes, 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Ted Lindsay award. He's technically achieved more in 13 years with the red wings than Datsyuk has in his 13 years. Sergei Fedorov achieved almost every item that Lindsay, Adel and Delveccio achieved individually! In terms of achievements, he's even closer than Pav. But what screwed Sergei? He left the franchise. Screwed the loyalty card over. Something that Abel, Delveccio, Lindsay DID have and actually still do. I see Ted Lindsay at tons of Red Wings games even to this day. I was at his book signing 3 years ago at the Joe before a game.

The point is in the old era, these guys, they did it all. But so did Fedorov, in a newer era. Unfortunately Feds lost on the loyalty card. But if Feds could do it in a newer era then so should the next guy retired in the NEWEST era (year 2004 and beyond). On paper Pav doesn't really fit the category. Had he ended up winning the Hart Trophy in 2009 I'd probably say he's a shoe in. If he wins another cup (as many as the other guys up on the rafters, I'd also say he's a shoe in. For now tho all I can say is he "has a pretty good shot". And the loyalty he has for the org and love from the fans gives him a better chance than it does for Feds. I can't see Illitch retiring #91 when so many fans dislike the guy. It would be pretty awkward. But still their decision so who knows.

So now back to this "bar" thing -

It seems like guys up on the rafters have (1) - atleast 3 cups. (2)- Had organizational loyalty, and (3)- won unique individual awards.

Fedorov has the cups and won the awards but lost on the loyalty.

Datsyuk has 2 cups, organizational loyalty (we almost freaked out in 2013 thinking he'd leave us for Russia and lots of fans had great disdrain towards Datsyuk for that), and zero MVPs or point/goal scoring titles. Ok well say the 3 Selkes are pretty frickin awsome. So he's ok on the awards stuff.

So Feds doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(2) and Datsyuk doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(1).

Given all that, I think Datsyuk is closer to having his jersey retired than Feds because he still has a shot at another cup and building upon his legacy. Feds? Well that guy left us and hes long retired from the NHL. There's no changing his case. It's already written.

Edited June 15, 2015 by kickazz

[number9 3,297]

I think Osgood gets his sweater retired first.

[kliq 3,755]

Lindsay -

11 all star appearances

1 Art Ross trophy winner

4 stanley cups

Named 1st all star team 7 times

Lead league in goals, assists, and points in different seasons

Delveccio -

13 all star appearances

3 Lady Bing trophies

3 Stanley cups

25 seasons with the Red Wings - Played with no other team in the league

1281 total points in career

Abel -

Lead league in goals 48/49

3 All star appearances

3 Stanley cups

1 Hart Trophy

Each of them has more all star appearances (Abel had just as many), more stanley cups, has either an art ross or hart trophy, or passed the thousand point mark. The point is they've done something unique. Extremely unique.

Datsyuk hasn't won a Hart, an Art Ross, nor has he gotten to the "3 cups" mark. You're right, there weren't many teams and hence competition was less. But what's also true is the players now are more skilled and its a faster game and Datsyuk was born into this fast era and is a part of it. The league has changed but so has the skill set of the players.

Now just to play devils advocate- If Pav truly was a generational player (I personally believe he was in terms of his stick handling) then how come he wasn't elected to the all star game more than 4 times in his 13 seasons? How come he was never named onto the 1st all star team? Now the question arises, was he truly generational then? What really defines generational?

Fedorov had 6 all star appearances, named 1st all star team, won 3 cups, 2 Selkes, 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Ted Lindsay award. He's technically achieved more in 13 years with the red wings than Datsyuk has in his 13 years. Sergei Fedorov achieved almost every item that Lindsay, Adel and Delveccio achieved individually! In terms of achievements, he's even closer than Pav. But what screwed Sergei? He left the franchise. Screwed the loyalty card over. Something that Abel, Delveccio, Lindsay DID have and actually still do. I see Ted Lindsay at tons of Red Wings games even to this day. I was at his book signing 3 years ago at the Joe before a game.

The point is in the old era, these guys, they did it all. But so did Fedorov, in a newer era. Unfortunately Feds lost on the loyalty card. But if Feds could do it in a newer era then so should the next guy retired in the NEWEST era (year 2004 and beyond). On paper Pav doesn't really fit the category. Had he ended up winning the Hart Trophy in 2009 I'd probably say he's a shoe in. If he wins another cup (as many as the other guys up on the rafters, I'd also say he's a shoe in. For now tho all I can say is he "has a pretty good shot". And the loyalty he has for the org and love from the fans gives him a better chance than it does for Feds. I can't see Illitch retiring #91 when so many fans dislike the guy. It would be pretty awkward. But still their decision so who knows.

So now back to this "bar" thing -

It seems like guys up on the rafters have (1) - atleast 3 cups. (2)- Had organizational loyalty, and (3)- won unique individual awards.

Fedorov has the cups and won the awards but lost on the loyalty.

Datsyuk has 2 cups, organizational loyalty (we almost freaked out in 2013 thinking he'd leave us for Russia and lots of fans had great disdrain towards Datsyuk for that), and zero MVPs or point/goal scoring titles. Ok well say the 3 Selkes are pretty frickin awsome. So he's ok on the awards stuff.

So Feds doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(2) and Datsyuk doesn't meet the bar (threshold) because he didn't meet #(1).

Given all that, I think Datsyuk is closer to having his jersey retired than Feds because he still has a shot at another cup and building upon his legacy. Feds? Well that guy left us and hes long retired from the NHL. There's no changing his case. It's already written.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up Fedorov, I'm not debating on behalf of him. I agree Fedorov shouldn't go up there due to his lack of loyalty. We agreed on that in the other thread.

Datsyuk probably could have won an art ross if he wasn't so defensively responsible, I am not going to hold that against him. Ill give you the Hart trophy argument, but only for Abel.

Basically it sounds like you are saying he should not have his jersey retired because he has 2 cups, not 3 which is absolutely ridiculous given its a team game. Plus, like I said when you have 6 teams and play almost 20 years, you should have more then 2 cups.

I really don't give all-star appearances much merit now a days. First off, hasn't Datsyuk turned down the all-star game a bunch of times? Secondly, the starters are voted by the fans which can result in people making it that shouldn't, third the all stars are picked half way into the year meaning its not a representation of an entire season, and lastly every team has to be represented by one player meaning its not the best 36 players (or however many) in the NHL even making it.

Datsyuk deserves to be up there. People look back on the past and view it in a higher light because it was so long ago, nostalgia. People also don't appreciate what is in front of them in the moment. I just hope that 10 years from now people look back at what Datsyuk has done here and appreciate him for the legend that he truly is. Its sad to see people so against him.

[kickazz 5,459]

1. I'm not sure why you are bringing up Fedorov, I'm not debating on behalf of him. I agree Fedorov shouldn't go up there due to his lack of loyalty. We agreed on that in the other thread.

2. Basically it sounds like you are saying he should not have his jersey retired because he has 2 cups, not 3 which is absolutely ridiculous given its a team game. Plus, like I said when you have 6 teams and play almost 20 years, you should have more then 2 cups.

3. First off, hasn't Datsyuk turned down the all-star game a bunch of times?

4. Secondly, the starters are voted by the fans which can result in people making it that shouldn't,

5. Datsyuk deserves to be up there. People look back on the past and view it in a higher light because it was so long ago, nostalgia. People also don't appreciate what is in front of them in the moment. I just hope that 10 years from now people look back at what Datsyuk has done here and appreciate him for the legend that he truly is.

6. Its sad to see people so against him.

1. Because the thread is about retiring Fedorov's jersey and he's the central part of this discussion, Datsyuk and everyone else are being compared and/or considered to the topic at hand.

2. No. I am saying that 3 cups would solidify it and 2 cups only give him a "pretty good shot at it". No one else with less than 3 cups has ever been retired. So to think that someone with 2 cups will be retired is a weaker stance than to think someone with 3 will be. We have no reason to believe 2 cups will meet the quota. What we do know is that the people who have gotten it retired had at least 3 cups. This isn't a matter of how you or I "feel". It's a matter of what is.

3. He was chosen for 4 and did not play in 1 due to an injury. It was actually Henrik Zetterberg that gave Shanahan the text that he did not want to participate in the All-star game in 2011. He wasn't injured but opted out so he could take the all-star weekend off.

4. This goes back to the "was he really a generational player" discussion. If the starters are picked by the fans. Which they are. Then shouldn't Datsyuk have been picked almost every single time if he was truly generational? And what's even more surprising is that the Red Wings have one of the largest fan bases in the continent and Pav still didn't get enough votes to be a starter. Generational players should be shoe ins. Like Crosby was, like Jonathan Toews, or Evgeni Malkin.

5. It isn't nostalgia. I've been watching the Wings since the 80s and my father before me had the privilege of watching Mr. Hockey. Datsyuk is no where near the legend that those guys were. You could argue that it's because there's far too much competition now and it's easy to have your name shadowed. True. But it is what it is. I watched Yzerman literally be a legend for 15+ years. Can you imagine? 15 years of insane goal scoring and excellent leadership. Year in and year out. Datsyuk merely gained popularity around 2006/07 and his prime really lasted only 5 years after that. He still is the magic man, but I ask you to go look at games from 2008 or 2009 and compare it to now. The magic is not the same.

I think you're making Pav out to be a bigger "legend" than he really is. Which is fine, I do too as I am a fan. But objectively speaking, he isn't the "legend" the guys on the rafters were. Entertaining yes. But THAT legendary? Not sure.

6. Just because we're looking at the matter objectively and putting aside our fan bias and thinking to ourselves "well maybe he doesn't meet the criteria" doesn't mean we are against him. It's not that black and white. Datsyuk is actually my favorite player. Both him and Zetterberg are. I like them both more than I loved Yzerman. But facts are facts the criteria and legendary status are incomparable between the 6 players up there and the 2 that are still down on the ice at the Joe.

I knew Yzerman would be retired long before he turned 30. You just frickin knew it. He was such a damn good captain and tremendous goal scorer. When his defensive IQ picked up under Bowman it was even more amazing. With Pav, he's 36 and it's still like ... well I don't know.. I guess he should be retired... Right? Hmm...

Edited June 15, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

1. Because the thread is about retiring Fedorov's jersey and he's the central part of this discussion, Datsyuk and everyone else are being compared and/or considered to the topic at hand.

2. No. I am saying that 3 cups would solidify it and 2 cups only give him a "pretty good shot at it". No one else with less than 3 cups has ever been retired. So to think that someone with 2 cups will be retired is a weaker stance than to think someone with 3 will be. We have no reason to believe 2 cups will meet the quota. What we do know is that the people who have gotten it retired had at least 3 cups. This isn't a matter of how you or I "feel". It's a matter of what is.

3. He was chosen for 4 and did not play in 1 due to an injury. It was actually Henrik Zetterberg that gave Shanahan the text that he did not want to participate in the All-star game in 2011. He wasn't injured but opted out so he could take the all-star weekend off.

4. This goes back to the "was he really a generational player" discussion. If the starters are picked by the fans. Which they are. Then shouldn't Datsyuk have been picked almost every single time if he was truly generational? And what's even more surprising is that the Red Wings have one of the largest fan bases in the continent and Pav still didn't get enough votes to be a starter. Generational players should be shoe ins. Like Crosby was, like Jonathan Toews, or Evgeni Malkin.

5. It isn't nostalgia. I've been watching the Wings since the 80s and my father before me had the privilege of watching Mr. Hockey. Datsyuk is no where near the legend that those guys were. You could argue that it's because there's far too much competition now and it's easy to have your name shadowed. True. But it is what it is. I watched Yzerman literally be a legend for 15+ years. Can you imagine? 15 years of insane goal scoring and excellent leadership. Year in and year out. Datsyuk merely gained popularity around 2006/07 and his prime really lasted only 5 years after that. He still is the magic man, but I ask you to go look at games from 2008 or 2009 and compare it to now. The magic is not the same.

I think you're making Pav out to be a bigger "legend" than he really is. Which is fine, I do too as I am a fan. But objectively speaking, he isn't the "legend" the guys on the rafters were. Entertaining yes. But THAT legendary? Not sure.

6. Just because we're looking at the matter objectively and putting aside our fan bias and thinking to ourselves "well maybe he doesn't meet the criteria" doesn't mean we are against him. It's not that black and white. Datsyuk is actually my favorite player. Both him and Zetterberg are. I like them both more than I loved Yzerman. But facts are facts the criteria and legendary status are incomparable between the 6 players up there and the 2 that are still down on the ice at the Joe.

I knew Yzerman would be retired long before he turned 30. You just frickin knew it. He was such a damn good captain and tremendous goal scorer. When his defensive IQ picked up under Bowman it was even more amazing. With Pav, he's 36 and it's still like ... well I don't know.. I guess he should be retired... Right? Hmm...

To make it easier to read, I will just number my responses in accordance to the way you numbered yours.

1. Like I said, you and I are on the same page with Fedorov.

2. Cups do not matter. I agree its not what I "feel" or what you "feel", but the the guys up there having 3 cups is not why they are up there, it's just something they have in common, it's not the deciding factor. You think if Stevie didn't win in 2002 he would not be up there? Of course he would be there. I don't think the cup argument is fair because having your jersey retired is an individual accomplishment, winning a cup is a team accomplishment. You cant base someone having their jersey retired on how good their supporting cast is. With that logic, Barry Sanders doesn't deserve his jersey retired (not sure if they do that in the NFL, but making a point). Maltby, McCarty, Draper & Holmstrom all have 4 cups, but I don't think anyone including yourself would say these four deserve to go up there. I get your argument, you are saying cups "solidify" it, but what I am saying is that measuring a players accomplishments based on cups, is very short sided and putting who they are playing with as way to big a factor. Especially when they guys you are comparing them to played against 5 teams. Like I said, I believe that Datsyuk deserves to be up there as much or if not more then at least one of Lindsey, Abel, and Delvecchio, and when you talk cups with those guys, you are talking the original 6 era where you had a 16.6% chance of winning a cup every year, in today's era there is a 3.3% chance. So much easier back then its not even close. Plus, Datsyuk doesn't have Gordie Howe on his line.

3. Okay, fair enough.

4. Are you seriously saying that if a player is truly "generational" the fans will vote them in? Its a popularity contest, and popularity has nothing to do with skill. Zemgus Girgensons started in last years NHL All star game. In MLB all star voting this year, 7 KC Royals are starting. All star voting mean NOTHING, and if you did a poll I would guess most education fans feel the same way. Also, back when Lindsey, Abel etc. played, you had 6 teams, meaning 24 forwards would make the all star team out of a talent pool of roughly 72 players. Being top 24/72 doesn't exactly seem like the hardest thing to do, especially when half of the greatest players in the world are not playing in your league yet. Now a days you have 30 teams, and 24 forwards make it out of a talent pool of roughly 360 players who are the best of the best. Again, so much easier back then to make an all star team. The reason why I bring this up is because you are using all star appearances as a reason as to why Datsyuk is inferior to the others. For the record, I am guessing that the all star teams carried 12 forwards back then, and most teams carried 12 forwards. I am sure my math is not exact as there may have been extra bench spots, more/less lines etc. but I am sure my point got through. I only say this because I don't want to argue semantics.

5. I am not sure why you keep bringing up Howe & Yzerman. I have stated many many many many times times as we have gone back and forth that I do not put Datsyuk at the same level of either of these guys. Secondly, nostalgia exists like it or not. I'm 33 years old, and I know I will never have the passion about a player the way I did/do about Yzerman due to the fact that he was my idol as a kid. When I talk about Yzerman, I will talk about him like he was the greatest thing ever. When the kids of today turn 50 or 60, I guarantee they will be saying things to their grand-kids statements like "I remember back in my day Pavel Datsyuk, they called him the magic man. Greatest hands I have ever seen!" They will look at him the same way I look at Stevie, and the same way the generation before us looked at Howe, Lindsey, Abel etc.

I am looking at this extremely objectively, I just don't agree with you. The fact that you keep bringing up the argument of cups, tells me that you are unwilling to evolve your thinking in the criteria of what it takes to go up there. The game is changing, the game is evolving, and something like a jersey being retired needs to evolve with it. At the end of the day, Datsyuk is an all time great and deserves to be up there.

What separates him from from from Abel, Lindsey & Delvecchio is that he is playing in an era where winning is harder then ever to win, and he doesn't have a case filled with offensive trophies because he is the type of player who always puts the team first. Had Datsuyk played a one dimensional game, there is a very good chance he would have won a Art Ross, but that just isn't him. The guy is a team first kind of guy, and I will not look down on him for that. Look at 2009, the guy put up 97 points (4th in the NHL) AND he won the Selke.

Ultimately it appears you and I will never agree as you put way to much stock into trophies, and do not see Datsyuk as a great at the level of the others. I do. We can go back and forth for days, but I think at this point its just starting to get repetitive.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Can you do one for Dandenault also?

[kickazz 5,459]

To make it easier to read, I will just number my responses in accordance to the way you numbered yours.

1. Like I said, you and I are on the same page with Fedorov.

2. Cups do not matter. I agree its not what I "feel" or what you "feel", but the the guys up there having 3 cups is not why they are up there, it's just something they have in common, it's not the deciding factor. You think if Stevie didn't win in 2002 he would not be up there? Of course he would be there. I don't think the cup argument is fair because having your jersey retired is an individual accomplishment, winning a cup is a team accomplishment. You cant base someone having their jersey retired on how good their supporting cast is. With that logic, Barry Sanders doesn't deserve his jersey retired (not sure if they do that in the NFL, but making a point). Maltby, McCarty, Draper & Holmstrom all have 4 cups, but I don't think anyone including yourself would say these four deserve to go up there. I get your argument, you are saying cups "solidify" it, but what I am saying is that measuring a players accomplishments based on cups, is very short sided and putting who they are playing with as way to big a factor. Especially when they guys you are comparing them to played against 5 teams. Like I said, I believe that Datsyuk deserves to be up there as much or if not more then at least one of Lindsey, Abel, and Delvecchio, and when you talk cups with those guys, you are talking the original 6 era where you had a 16.6% chance of winning a cup every year, in today's era there is a 3.3% chance. So much easier back then its not even close. Plus, Datsyuk doesn't have Gordie Howe on his line.

3. Okay, fair enough.

4. Are you seriously saying that if a player is truly "generational" the fans will vote them in? Its a popularity contest, and popularity has nothing to do with skill. Zemgus Girgensons started in last years NHL All star game. In MLB all star voting this year, 7 KC Royals are starting. All star voting mean NOTHING, and if you did a poll I would guess most education fans feel the same way. Also, back when Lindsey, Abel etc. played, you had 6 teams, meaning 24 forwards would make the all star team out of a talent pool of roughly 72 players. Being top 24/72 doesn't exactly seem like the hardest thing to do, especially when half of the greatest players in the world are not playing in your league yet. Now a days you have 30 teams, and 24 forwards make it out of a talent pool of roughly 360 players who are the best of the best. Again, so much easier back then to make an all star team. The reason why I bring this up is because you are using all star appearances as a reason as to why Datsyuk is inferior to the others. For the record, I am guessing that the all star teams carried 12 forwards back then, and most teams carried 12 forwards. I am sure my math is not exact as there may have been extra bench spots, more/less lines etc. but I am sure my point got through. I only say this because I don't want to argue semantics.

5. I am not sure why you keep bringing up Howe & Yzerman. I have stated many many many many times times as we have gone back and forth that I do not put Datsyuk at the same level of either of these guys. Secondly, nostalgia exists like it or not. I'm 33 years old, and I know I will never have the passion about a player the way I did/do about Yzerman due to the fact that he was my idol as a kid. When I talk about Yzerman, I will talk about him like he was the greatest thing ever. When the kids of today turn 50 or 60, I guarantee they will be saying things to their grand-kids statements like "I remember back in my day Pavel Datsyuk, they called him the magic man. Greatest hands I have ever seen!" They will look at him the same way I look at Stevie, and the same way the generation before us looked at Howe, Lindsey, Abel etc.

I am looking at this extremely objectively, I just don't agree with you. The fact that you keep bringing up the argument of cups, tells me that you are unwilling to evolve your thinking in the criteria of what it takes to go up there. The game is changing, the game is evolving, and something like a jersey being retired needs to evolve with it. At the end of the day, Datsyuk is an all time great and deserves to be up there.

What separates him from from from Abel, Lindsey & Delvecchio is that he is playing in an era where winning is harder then ever to win, and he doesn't have a case filled with offensive trophies because he is the type of player who always puts the team first. Had Datsuyk played a one dimensional game, there is a very good chance he would have won a Art Ross, but that just isn't him. The guy is a team first kind of guy, and I will not look down on him for that. Look at 2009, the guy put up 97 points (4th in the NHL) AND he won the Selke.

6. Ultimately it appears you and I will never agree as you put way to much stock into trophies, and do not see Datsyuk as a great at the level of the others. I do. We can go back and forth for days, but I think at this point its just starting to get repetitive.

2. How do we assume this without factual evidence? The only fact we have is each person up there has 3 cups. Nothing less. Anyways the original point I made was that the bar would be set lower if someone with less than 3 cups was retired. And you can't use the "Maltby, Draper or McCarty" argument because they don't have the other "Categories" I listed. Remember the "cup" is just one category. This is a point of what the standard is set to on paper. On paper, there are minimum 3 cups earn by each up on the rafters. Now, if someone with 2 cups ended up having their jersey retired.. would that be blasphemous? No. It would just lower the bar is all. Which to be honest would get Pav in and also make Z's case even stronger. <-- which for me is a win win because I love both players. 3 cups - shoe-in. 2 cups = debate. If Pav won another cup, no one would in their right mind even question if he meets the "cup" category, because he would. That debate would be settled. And like I mentioned before, he has all the other cards lined up (loyalty, franchise numbers, fan/organization appreciation, generational).

4. A generational player would have a tremendous effect on the fans who would admire his skill. It may be a popularity contest but I don't see how that would stop him from being voted in. I mean if you look at the votes, he wasn't even close to being voted in. Ever. Believe it or not Sidney Crosby is one of the more disliked players amongst fans (overall), yet almost every year he makes the voting. I hate Crosby I think he's a whiner and subpar leader, yet I won't deny his pure talent. His one ice vision is second to none. No one can deny that.

There are some outliers, like Girgensons yes. Additionally if you really want to dwell on this then lets set aside the top 5 starters aspect of the all star game since it's a "popularity contest". The rest of the squad isn't chosen by the fans. It's by the NHL operations. Now thenwhy is it that Datsyuk STILL didn't make the all-stars most of his career, even when the rest of the rosters aren't purely based off popularity amongst fans? Lastly, if it is so much harder to get into the all-star game now, (which it is), then why have Ovechkin, Chara, etc made it year in and year out? You can't make these excuses for just Pav when it obviously doesn't apply to a lot of players in this league. Most of the "top" superstars make it year in and year out. Ok lets even put the whole "all-star" game aside and talk about "NHL First All-Star team". Which is based off skills and performance and contributions. Datsyuk has never made it on there. Remember I'm playing devils advocate with you on the whole "generational" point.

5. I'm not so sure. Yzerman was a legend for almost 15 straight years. Datsyuk was a lethal player for about 5 straight years or so (2007-2012ish). But I still relate more Pav than Yzerman. Actually I probably loved watching Z more than both of them in his prime but that's just me. Yzerman was my idol growing up but over the years I've moved on and have loved the whole "euro twin" thing a lot more. Probably because these two players were 6th and 7th round players that were the most complete players in history. So my point is, I am a bigger euro twin fan now than I am an Yzerman fan like I used to be. But someone asks me "do you think #13 will be up there?" my response usually is "I really hope so, but to be honest, the guys up there right now have made it pretty hard for these guys".

You mentioned Pavel's 2009 season, I'll add in the 2008 season because he did well that season as well. But that's the other point, he had 2 excellent seasons and he never reached that number again. In 2011 he played 70 games and scored 67 points. Now you're also saying that the other three (Lindsay, Abel, and Delv) aren't any more special than Pav. Actually, the fact of the matter is while Datsyuk produced well in 2 seasons, the guys, they consistently produced the amount of points they did. I think Lindsay even had a season where he produced close to 90 points well into his 30s. And I know for a fact that Delveccio had an 80+ points at the age of 38! Quiet a feat actually.

6. Actually I don't put too much stalk into Trophies I'm one of the few on here that thinks Zetterberg has a good chance of getting it retired even though he has only one trophy. But this STILL doesn't change my original point. That point being that the Red Wings have a high standard with multiple "categories", only one of which include the trophies. And currently, all members who have been retired have at least 3 cups. Anyone getting their jersey retired with less cups would set the "trophies category" bar to a lower point.

Edited June 17, 2015 by kickazz