Which Sweater Do RWs Retire First - Feds or Ozzy?

[kliq 3,755]

Its not so much that the fans feel that way, its moreso the categories we came up with AFTER looking at exactly who is up on those rafters. The current jerseys up there had major accomplishments, were generational, and had damn good loyalty to the organization. Adding osgood or fedorov would be stepping outside the trend the previous retired jerseys have created. Yes both feds and ozzy have certain records or accomplishments set. But each are missing something the other jerseys have, whether its long term commitment to org or winning individual trophies. The bar has been set high and allowing either of them would be undercuttng it.

I hate this "accomplishments" argument when it comes to Fedorov, its just not true. To say Fedorov does not have the accomplishments of those who are up there is wrong. Sure if you are comparing him to Yzerman, Lidstrom or Howe. But not if you are comparing him to Lindsey, Delvechiio, or Abel. Please lets just be honest, Fedorov is not up there because of how he acted off time ice. He lacked respect to the organization, and pissed people off with the way he left. If we are talking "accomplishments" here is why this is BS:

Fedorov accomplishments:

• NHL All-Rookie Team - 1991
• NHL First All-Star Team - 1994
• NHL All-Star Game - 1992, 1994, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003
• Hart Memorial Trophy (MVP) - 1994
• Lester B. Pearson Award - 1994
• Frank J. Selke Trophy - 1994, 1996
• 3-time NHL Stanley Cup Champion: 1997, 1998, 2002

Abels accomplishments:

• 2-time NHL First Team All-Star (1949, 1950)
• 2-time NHL Second Team All-Star (1942, 1951)
• 3-time Stanley Cup champion (1943, 1950, 1952)
• 1-time Hart Memorial Trophy (1949)

Delvecchio's

• 3-time Stanley Cup champion with Detroit (1952, 1954, 1955).
• Named a Second Team All-Star in 1953 (at centre) and 1959 (at left wing).
• Played in the All-Star Game 13 times (in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1967), a total surpassed by only six players.

Lindsey:

• NHL 1st Team All-star (8 times)
• NHL 2nd Team All-star (once)
• NHL All-Star Game (11 times)
• Art Ross Trophy winner (1950)
• 4-time Stanley Cup champion (1950, 1952, 1954, 1955)

Also, please note that Fedorov did all this while playing aginst the best players in the world, unlike the others here who played against the best players of North America. MUCH easier to win a cup when there are 6 teams in the league. Fedorov was a big fish in a big pond. Abel, Lindsay, and Delvechhio were big fish in a medium size pond. Please don't misinterpret my comments as putting the older guys down, I am not at all. I have a ton of respect for these 3. My point, is that Fedorov is on the same level accomplishments wise, and did it at a time that it was harder.

Edited June 7, 2015 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

I hate this "accomplishments" argument when it comes to Fedorov, its just not true. To say Fedorov does not have the accomplishments of those who are up there is wrong. Sure if you are comparing him to Yzerman, Lidstrom or Howe. But not if you are comparing him to Lindsey, Delvechiio, or Abel. Please lets just be honest, Fedorov is not up there because of how he acted off time ice. He lacked respect to the organization, and pissed people off with the way he left. If we are talking "accomplishments" here is why this is BS:

Fedorov accomplishments:

• NHL All-Rookie Team - 1991
• NHL First All-Star Team - 1994
• NHL All-Star Game - 1992, 1994, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2003
• Hart Memorial Trophy (MVP) - 1994
• Lester B. Pearson Award - 1994
• Frank J. Selke Trophy - 1994, 1996
• 3-time NHL Stanley Cup Champion: 1997, 1998, 2002

Abels accomplishments:

• 2-time NHL First Team All-Star (1949, 1950)
• 2-time NHL Second Team All-Star (1942, 1951)
• 3-time Stanley Cup champion (1943, 1950, 1952)
• 1-time Hart Memorial Trophy (1949)

Delvecchio's

• 3-time Stanley Cup champion with Detroit (1952, 1954, 1955).
• Named a Second Team All-Star in 1953 (at centre) and 1959 (at left wing).
• Played in the All-Star Game 13 times (in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1967), a total surpassed by only six players.

Lindsey:

• NHL 1st Team All-star (8 times)
• NHL 2nd Team All-star (once)
• NHL All-Star Game (11 times)
• Art Ross Trophy winner (1950)
• 4-time Stanley Cup champion (1950, 1952, 1954, 1955)

Also, please note that Fedorov did all this while playing aginst the best players in the world, unlike the others here who played against the best players of North America. MUCH easier to win a cup when there are 6 teams in the league. Fedorov was a big fish in a big pond. Abel, Lindsay, and Delvechhio were big fish in a medium size pond. Please don't misinterpret my comments as putting the older guys down, I am not at all. I have a ton of respect for these 3. My point, is that Fedorov is on the same level accomplishments wise, and did it at a time that it was harder.

You misread my post. Which i knew would happen because i was too lazy to go Into details for at almost 4am. I said that theres many categories the people on the rafters fullfill that Ozzy and Feds do not. I didnt say Feds doesnt fullfil the "accomplishments" category. Im talking about how certain players dont meet "all" the categories aka the bar that has been set. In Feds case that would be loyalty to the organization. Ozzys case is the fact that he wasn't a generational goalie.

Come on, who in their right mind would try to argue that the best defensive russian forward who won a Hart trophy doesnt have accomplishments. >.>

And then I brought Datsyuk as an example. He has accomplishments, loyalty, AND was/is a generational player. I basically wrapped up the post by saying Datsyuk is closer to the bar that was set than Feds and Ozzy were because he meets a lot more categories. Accomplishments, cups, generational player, loyalty/commitment, loved by the fans, loved by the organization, contributions to the city of Detroit, leader by example. Etc etc etc.

Ozzy and Feds for many reasons dont have the love and respect from a lot of fans that the guys on those rafters did and the two current players on our roster do. And obviously they dont have the same respect from the organization that yzerman, lidstrom, howe, lindsay etc had. I mean these guys were ADORED.

That's the reality of the Red Wings. The bar is set too damn high. If it's even a debate that you should be up there, then likely you won't be up there. If Ozzy and Feds jerseys were retired, it would be setting a new and lower threshold OVERALL (remember not just one category but we're looking at a complete profile). Not that I have a problem with it but it is what it is.

Edited June 7, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

You misread my post. Which i knew would happen because i was too lazy to go Into details for at almost 4am. I said that theres many categories the people on the rafters fullfill that Ozzy and Feds do not. I didnt say Feds doesnt fullfil the "accomplishments" category. Im talking about how certain players dont meet "all" the categories aka the bar that has been set. In Feds case that would be loyalty to the organization. Ozzys case is the fact that he wasn't a generational goalie.

Come on, who in their right mind would try to argue that the best defensive russian forward who won a Hart trophy doesnt have accomplishments. >.>

And then I brought Datsyuk as an example. He has accomplishments, loyalty, AND was/is a generational player. I basically wrapped up the post by saying Datsyuk is closer to the bar that was set than Feds and Ozzy were because he meets a lot more categories. Accomplishments, cups, generational player, loyalty/commitment, loved by the fans, loved by the organization, contributions to the city of Detroit, leader by example. Etc etc etc.

Ozzy and Feds for many reasons dont have the love and respect from a lot of fans that the guys on those rafters did and the two current players on our roster do. And obviously they dont have the same respect from the organization that yzerman, lidstrom, howe, lindsay etc had. I mean these guys were ADORED.

That's the reality of the Red Wings. The bar is set too damn high. If it's even a debate that you should be up there, then likely you won't be up there. If Ozzy and Feds jerseys were retired, it would be setting a new and lower threshold OVERALL (remember not just one category but we're looking at a complete profile). Not that I have a problem with it but it is what it is.

Cant say I disagree, your essentially agreeing with my original post.

[kickazz 5,459]

Cant say I disagree, your essentially agreeing with my original post.

Yeah Lol. Just trying to add some more substance to it. Basically I tell my self why the players on the rafters are up there. They each meet a number of categories which Feds and Ozzy don't. (it's not just about how many wins or cups you have.. it seems to be much more than that..).

Hindsight basically.

Edited June 8, 2015 by kickazz

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Fedorov has better/similar stats than zetterberg and datsyuk and more cups and an mvp and people here are saying hank and pav will get their jerseys retired( not saying I disagree on that)

So basically it's because fedorov left the wings and had some apparent beef with Mike illitch and played somewhere else or else if he got injured he'd have his jersey retired for everything he's done

Just can't agree with that at all .... Didn't pavel bure have his jersey retired ? And he played with Florida and rangers I believe and don't say it's cause the canucks haven't won any cups and have no great players cause fedorov did way more for detroit than bure ever did for canucks

Anyways no point seems some fans will never forgive someone for not staying with one team

Edited June 8, 2015 by nyqvististhefuture

[kickazz 5,459]

Fedorov has better/similar stats than zetterberg and datsyuk and more cups and an mvp and people here are saying hank and pav will get their jerseys retired( not saying I disagree on that)

So basically it's because fedorov left the wings and had some apparent beef with Mike illitch and played somewhere else or else if he got injured he'd have his jersey retired for everything he's done

Just can't agree with that at all .... Didn't pavel bure have his jersey retired ? And he played with Florida and rangers I believe and don't say it's cause the canucks haven't won any cups and have no great players cause fedorov did way more for detroit than bure ever did for canucks

Anyways no point seems some fans will never forgive someone for not staying with one team

It's not that black and white. Fedorov was a hell of a player. But so were a lot of other people on this franchise. If we went about retiring everyone's jerseys just based off of numbers then we should also retire Shanahan and maybe Ullman's as well. Probably even Syd Howe's.

It's tough to play in this organization. The standards are set too high. It gets to the point where you look beyond one or two categories. Sure, the numbers and hardware help your case, but they don't solidify it.

Some people might have forgotten Feds contributions. I haven't. He was actually my favorite player even after he left the team. But doesn't mean I can't have an opinion that he doesn't meet the requirements to be up there. Do I think he belongs in the Hall of Fame? Absolutely. But was he a special enough Red Wings and Detroiter to have his jersey retired? Not in my opinion.

The reason I think Pav and Z have a better chance is because they are close to Feds franchise numbers but they have the commitment factor that Feds gave up on when he was 33 years old. He left. And whether you like it or not, that definitely put a dent on his relations with this city. The fact that people even discuss it and have to write articles about it is proof. Anyways, I'm quiet sure it all depends on what Illitch family thinks of him.

Edited June 8, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Just can't agree with that at all .... Didn't pavel bure have his jersey retired ? And he played with Florida and rangers I believe and don't say it's cause the canucks haven't won any cups and have no great players cause fedorov did way more for detroit than bure ever did for canucks

We're not looking at other organizations. We're looking at the Red Wings who have their own standards. Look at the rafters and numbers retired and think to yourself: "What do THESE individuals have in common and what standards have THEY set?" Don't look at other organizations or their players.

Edited June 8, 2015 by kickazz

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

I thought the main characteristic had to be that you were shy and retiring and when your game was up you just... drifted into the background only to be seen every now and then. Think Lids and Stevie recently (before he stabbed us in the back the no good... ). For that reason, namely his terrible duet with Kenny Daniels during every ad break and his part in the 'Three Pieces of Wood' skit during every intermission, Ozzy hasn't kept quiet enough to have the number up. His portfolio is out on the desk at HQ and everything, grainy late-90s action photo and headshot being examined, then they switch on FSDetroit and it all goes in the shredder.

With Stevie it was a case of "We want you to come and work for us, take over one day"... "Okay. I think I'll grab a chair towards the back"... "What a guy".

With Lids it was "Nick, you've had one hell of a career, what will you do next?"... *LONG PAUSE.... MORE PAUSE* "I don't know. Take it easy I guess". [Five years later] "Has anyone seen Nick?"

I'm surprised (although I don't agree) Fed's records haven't been expunged from all Wings history books at the request of lynch mobs.

This whole post has been tongue in cheek, an honestly I was half debating whether the OP was since this sort of thing comes up every post-season and everyone always says "if there's a debate about it, it won't happen" which is why it won't happen. In fairness talking about jerseys and HOF are two different kettles of fish - you can take a guy's stats from club to club and put the very best in the HOF, even take guys who revolutionised the game (which is probably the only way Pav will get in TBH), but the jersey thing is the organisation's decision and they can base it on whatever criteria they like. Personally I see it being a guy who summed up everything about the organisation and the city, and that's why it's an exclusive club. Ozzy may qualify for that, but he wasn't really any different for this team than any other above-average player was for any team they were loyal to. Rose-tinted glasses and all that I guess. Or maybe I'm just a contemptible old man (I'm 25... pray for me).

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Retire neither.

Make it like Michigan does with the epic numbers.

Give then to great players/prospects who won't get retired.

Edited June 10, 2015 by jimmyemeryhunter

[xtrememachine1 795]

It really depends on your criteria for what makes the jersey worthy of retirement. Osgood wasn't an all time great and they won the Cup without him twice. However, his stats speak for themselves and he did backstop two other Stanley Cup championships. Fedorov didn't have the numbers that Yzerman or Howe or Lindsay had throughout their careers but I'm 99% sure that if he wasn't a member of the Red Wings, we don't win 3 Stanley Cups in 6 years. He didn't leave Detroit under the best of terms and that left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but the truth is, he was a major factor in our championship victories. Sometimes it seemed like he got lazy out there, but when it mattered most he was usually the best player on the ice. I don't think you can retire anyone else's jersey from that era without retiring Fedorov first.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Konstantinov. Option 4.

[kliq 3,755]

Konstantinov. Option 4.

If they were going to do that, I think they would have done it a long time ago. His jersey isnt retired, but it is out of circulation.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Another vote for "neither".

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Another vote for "neither".

Agreed. Had Fedorov remained and retired a Wing, though, he would have been a lock.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I'm just shocked, not to mention appalled, that the original post has not been edited to correct the names.

[number9 3,297]

I'm just shocked, not to mention appalled, that the original post has not been edited to correct the names.

What's wrong with them?

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

What's wrong with them?

Ozgood and Federov...

[number9 3,297]

Ozgood and Federov...

I see.

eh, not doin it.

[kliq 3,755]

Ozgood and Federov...

What the issue, those names would go perfectly with Lindstrom and Yserman.

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I see.

eh, not doin it.

Wait...you didn't know? And now that you know, you aren't fixing it? I just can't...

What the issue, those names would go perfectly with Lindstrom and Yserman.

I, too, weep for humanity.

[Helmethead 235]

Lindstrom, Yserman and Federov. I miss them all.

[kliq 3,755]

Lindstrom, Yserman and Federov. I miss them all.

Dont forget Mr. Hockey Gordie How.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Lindstrom, Yserman and Federov. I miss them all.

I can't tell if you are serious with those spellings right now

[number9 3,297]

Wait...you didn't know? And now that you know, you aren't fixing it? I just can't...

I, too, weep for humanity.

Nope, too busy

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'd love to see Grimson's #32 in the rafters someday.