The Bowman Effect

[Nightfall 871]

Don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember the latter half of the Dead Things, how terrible that era was and how painfully long it dragged on. I only recall 15 years of pain before the ship started to right, there were 15 more before that and the old geezers will gnash their teeth and pull out what's left of their hair thinking of those days... be careful what you ask for.

First off, I would never advocate tanking for 10 years or even 1 year for that matter. People here see Chicago's domination, and it shouldn't be attributed to the Bowmans. It should be attributed to the 10 years of torture that some Hawks fans had to endure during those dry years. The ownership really did set out to have that team tank. They weren't broadcasting the games on TV. They crapped all over the fanbase, and now, they have one 3 cups in the last 6 seasons. Dave Tallon was just there to build a powerhouse for the Hawks. He was so key in the Hawks success that Chicago got Tallon's name engraved on the cup and they got him a cup ring for their win in 2010 (he was let go in 2009).

If the team really tanked like the Hawks team did, and the ownership changed to the point where they crapped on the fanbase, I wouldn't be surprised to see a majority of Wings fans take their support elsewhere.

[Richdg 267]

First off, I would never advocate tanking for 10 years or even 1 year for that matter. People here see Chicago's domination, and it shouldn't be attributed to the Bowmans. It should be attributed to the 10 years of torture that some Hawks fans had to endure during those dry years. The ownership really did set out to have that team tank. They weren't broadcasting the games on TV. They crapped all over the fanbase, and now, they have one 3 cups in the last 6 seasons. Dave Tallon was just there to build a powerhouse for the Hawks. He was so key in the Hawks success that Chicago got Tallon's name engraved on the cup and they got him a cup ring for their win in 2010 (he was let go in 2009).

If the team really tanked like the Hawks team did, and the ownership changed to the point where they crapped on the fanbase, I wouldn't be surprised to see a majority of Wings fans take their support elsewhere.

This already happened and we are all still here. Most fans can handle 1 or 2 bad years and live with it. When you start talking 10, 15, 20 years that is something different.

as for the previous post, no 1 person is ever the sole reason for a teams success/failures. But when you have good teams make 1 key change and then start winning championships there is a strong case to be made. Bowman won every where during his career. There are reasons why he is in the HOF. MI bought the team in the early 80's. it was 15 years +/- later that we won a cup. Jimmy D was there for 15 years before we won a cup. Stevie was there etc...... It was when we added Bowman to the mix that we went from good to great. There really isn't any debate about either.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

14 Stanley Cups ! this is unbelievable Bowman just had an interview at Leafs Lunch liked it a lot.

[Nightfall 871]

This already happened and we are all still here. Most fans can handle 1 or 2 bad years and live with it. When you start talking 10, 15, 20 years that is something different.

as for the previous post, no 1 person is ever the sole reason for a teams success/failures. But when you have good teams make 1 key change and then start winning championships there is a strong case to be made. Bowman won every where during his career. There are reasons why he is in the HOF. MI bought the team in the early 80's. it was 15 years +/- later that we won a cup. Jimmy D was there for 15 years before we won a cup. Stevie was there etc...... It was when we added Bowman to the mix that we went from good to great. There really isn't any debate about either.

This has happened but it was back in the 70s and 80s. I know a few older fans that are here, but I also knew some older fans that left and never returned. I question how many of the current Wings fans would remain fans after 10 years of crappy teams. Any fans that became Wings fans back when they were 8 or 10 years old in the early 90s would be 33 or 35 years old today. That is how competitive the Wings have been through the years.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Babcock was overrated. Holland isn't. That's the difference.

I hope you're right, kip. I'm not convinced, but I will gladly eat crow after next season.

[Seraph 240]

I'd never knock the hockey genius of Scottie Bowman. However, once you've developed a reputation as a winner, you end up choosing who you work for rather than developing teams from scratch. I think it's unlikely that Bowman was the factor that brought 3 cups to Chicago. Rather, it's more likely he had the hockey mind to see the potential of the team years in advance.

I think successful coaches, GMs, and other personnel in professional sports have a tendency to snowball on their own success. Their padded resume allows them to work with future winners more often.

[FlashyG 1,799]

I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Scotty Bowman is the most overrated person in hockey history.

He was a great coach, that's not in question but as a GM he was absolutely terrible, and he gets credit for millions of things he has absolutely nothing to do with.

His is also incredibly opportunistic, in that he jumps from team to team that are on the cusp of winning and rides his predecessors work to add to his hardware collection. The only time in his entire career where he was tasked with building something was in Buffalo, and it was the only stop on his ride where he didn't succeed.

I don't think Stan Bowman gets anywhere near the credit he deserves, Scotty lives nowhere near Chicago and has next to no impact on the day to day workings of the Blackhawks, yet when the Hawks win 3 cups in such a short span its not the GM that gets the credit, it goes to his 81 year old father who wasn't half the GM his son is.

It's hard to find anyone on earth more overrated when you consider someone in this thead thinks your cup chances improve simply by writing Scotty Bowman on any type of paycheck.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Scotty Bowman is the most overrated person in hockey history.

He was a great coach, that's not in question but as a GM he was absolutely terrible, and he gets credit for millions of things he has absolutely nothing to do with.

His is also incredibly opportunistic, in that he jumps from team to team that are on the cusp of winning and rides his predecessors work to add to his hardware collection. The only time in his entire career where he was tasked with building something was in Buffalo, and it was the only stop on his ride where he didn't succeed.

I don't think Stan Bowman gets anywhere near the credit he deserves, Scotty lives nowhere near Chicago and has next to no impact on the day to day workings of the Blackhawks, yet when the Hawks win 3 cups in such a short span its not the GM that gets the credit, it goes to his 81 year old father who wasn't half the GM his son is.

It's hard to find anyone on earth more overrated when you consider someone in this thead thinks your cup chances improve simply by writing Scotty Bowman on any type of paycheck.

I agree 100% especially pertaining to the opportunistic part. Bowman is excellent in putting himself in a position to be successful. I think that's his greatest attribute. Edited June 18, 2015 by Echolalia

[Hack & Whack Rule! 160]

I'm always a bit surprised when someone thinks that one person has laid a golden path, rather than walked on one previously laid. Bowman is a superstar, and I don't think anyone is trying to deny it, so we're okay there. Saying he has brought success to the previously suckish in every venue is a stretch. While I am sure that he has helped in some cases, in others there was an opportune and fortunate opening with a team on the rise. If the "Bowman Effect" were a real and quantifiable phenomenon, someone that is getting paid oodles of money would have spotted it, and we would have Bowman back...it is not...they have not...we will not.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Scotty Bowman is the most overrated person in hockey history.

He was a great coach, that's not in question but as a GM he was absolutely terrible, and he gets credit for millions of things he has absolutely nothing to do with.

His is also incredibly opportunistic, in that he jumps from team to team that are on the cusp of winning and rides his predecessors work to add to his hardware collection. The only time in his entire career where he was tasked with building something was in Buffalo, and it was the only stop on his ride where he didn't succeed.

I don't think Stan Bowman gets anywhere near the credit he deserves, Scotty lives nowhere near Chicago and has next to no impact on the day to day workings of the Blackhawks, yet when the Hawks win 3 cups in such a short span its not the GM that gets the credit, it goes to his 81 year old father who wasn't half the GM his son is.

It's hard to find anyone on earth more overrated when you consider someone in this thead thinks your cup chances improve simply by writing Scotty Bowman on any type of paycheck.

He was in charge of the Blues when the NHL first expanded and built a team that immediately won the new conference for the first few years. He has little to do with the Hawks' success though

[Richdg 267]

Anyone that tries to down play Bowman is a complete fool. he wins championships. has done so his entire career. the teams that he has taken over didn't win before he arrived, and stopped winning after he left. it really is that simple.

Yes his son is also a very good hockey man. Where do you think he learned that? Who helped him get the job? Who do you think he turns to for advise when deciding what players to keep vs let go? This is simple stuff.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I heard if you say Scotty Bowman's name three times in the mirror of any hockey rink, And have a few million dollars laying around, hell come and win you a championship.

Edited June 18, 2015 by jimmyemeryhunter

[kipwinger 8,493]

I heard if you say Scotty Bowman's name three times in the mirror of any hockey rink, And have a few million dollars laying around, hell come and win you a championship.

This morning, as I went to pour my daily coffee I opened the cabinet and found, to my surprise, that Scotty Bowman was inside my cupboard.

As expected, he handed me a Cup.

[Rivalred 630]

This morning, as I went to pour my daily coffee I opened the cabinet and found, to my surprise, that Scotty Bowman was inside my cupboard.

As expected, he handed me a Cup.

I didn't see that version of Indian in the cupboard

[kipwinger 8,493]

I didn't see that version of Indian in the cupboard

If I had that Cupboard from the story, it would produce the Stanley Cup less quickly than Scotty Bowman could.

[Rivalred 630]

If I had that Cupboard from the story, it would produce the Stanley Cup less quickly than Scotty Bowman could.

small players would come alive, surprise, and play Big?

[FlashyG 1,799]

He was in charge of the Blues when the NHL first expanded and built a team that immediately won the new conference for the first few years. He has little to do with the Hawks' success though

He was an assistant coach with the Blues when they came into the league and got promoted to head coach when the GM/Head coach quit, he had nothing to do with building the Blues and its not like the Blues were some sort of giant success story.

They played in a conference where every single team was an expansion team and they were swept every time they faced a team from the Original 6 conference.

He did coach them well, but his prowess as a coach has never been questioned

Anyone that tries to down play Bowman is a complete fool. he wins championships. has done so his entire career. the teams that he has taken over didn't win before he arrived, and stopped winning after he left. it really is that simple.

Yes his son is also a very good hockey man. Where do you think he learned that? Who helped him get the job? Who do you think he turns to for advise when deciding what players to keep vs let go? This is simple stuff.

Bowman jumped ship from St. Louis to Montreal, who had won 5 of the previous 7 Stanley Cups, so I'd say they were pretty well established as winners before Scotty arrived to "Save" them. They were built by Sam Pollock (and the lack of a draft allowing them a masive edge in acquiring all players coming into the league from the province of Quebec) certainly not by Bowman. Its also not that big of a coincidence that shortly after Pollock stepped down as GM, Bowman moved on to Buffalo to try his hand at being a GM.

While Buffalo didn't win much before he got there, nor did they win more when he left, they didn't win anything while he was there either. They made the finals once, but were only 3-6 in playoff series under Bowman, they missed the playoffs twice and were the worst team in the league when Bowman was eventually fired.

His next stop in the league was in Pittsburgh where he took over a team that was the reigning Stanley Cup Champs, he was able to repeat for them with a star studded line-up before moving onto Detroit who were a top team in the league for the previous 2 seasons before he arrived, and have continued to be successful after his departure.

Bowman would be a fantastic adviser to a coach, but where in his history does he give you any indication that he knows how to build a hockey team. Perhaps Stan has gotten advice from his dad at times, who knows, but its absolutely clear that as a GM Stan Bowman has been a far better GM than his dad ever was and to credit Scotty for his sons success as a GM is completely unfair and somewhat insulting to one of the best GM's in the league.

Personally I don't think he has anything to do with the Blackhawks success at all, I think he's piggy backing off his son's work now collecting rings while sitting at home in Buffalo.

[LAWings 160]

He was an assistant coach with the Blues when they came into the league and got promoted to head coach when the GM/Head coach quit, he had nothing to do with building the Blues and its not like the Blues were some sort of giant success story.

They played in a conference where every single team was an expansion team and they were swept every time they faced a team from the Original 6 conference.

He did coach them well, but his prowess as a coach has never been questioned

Bowman jumped ship from St. Louis to Montreal, who had won 5 of the previous 7 Stanley Cups, so I'd say they were pretty well established as winners before Scotty arrived to "Save" them. They were built by Sam Pollock (and the lack of a draft allowing them a masive edge in acquiring all players coming into the league from the province of Quebec) certainly not by Bowman. Its also not that big of a coincidence that shortly after Pollock stepped down as GM, Bowman moved on to Buffalo to try his hand at being a GM.

While Buffalo didn't win much before he got there, nor did they win more when he left, they didn't win anything while he was there either. They made the finals once, but were only 3-6 in playoff series under Bowman, they missed the playoffs twice and were the worst team in the league when Bowman was eventually fired.

His next stop in the league was in Pittsburgh where he took over a team that was the reigning Stanley Cup Champs, he was able to repeat for them with a star studded line-up before moving onto Detroit who were a top team in the league for the previous 2 seasons before he arrived, and have continued to be successful after his departure.

Bowman would be a fantastic adviser to a coach, but where in his history does he give you any indication that he knows how to build a hockey team. Perhaps Stan has gotten advice from his dad at times, who knows, but its absolutely clear that as a GM Stan Bowman has been a far better GM than his dad ever was and to credit Scotty for his sons success as a GM is completely unfair and somewhat insulting to one of the best GM's in the league.

Personally I don't think he has anything to do with the Blackhawks success at all, I think he's piggy backing off his son's work now collecting rings while sitting at home in Buffalo.

Bowman's first coaching job was with the newly created St. Louis Blues, in the first 3 years of the Blues existance and the first 3 years of Bowman's coaching them, he took them to the Stanley Cup Finals THREE YEARS IN A ROW.

They did this with expansion draft players and a 40 year old goalie. This is one of the most astonishing coaching performances ever, and you fail to even recognize these were Stanley Cup Finals, 3 of them as a rookie coach with a rookie team.

But when you say he's the most overrated person in NHL history, with the fact that in the 48 years in the NHL, 19 of them have been in the Finals... I wonder if maybe you're thinking of Drayson Bowman... no maybe Ralph Bowman? Are you even talking about hockey?

Edited June 18, 2015 by LAWings

[Nightfall 871]

Bowman would be a fantastic adviser to a coach, but where in his history does he give you any indication that he knows how to build a hockey team. Perhaps Stan has gotten advice from his dad at times, who knows, but its absolutely clear that as a GM Stan Bowman has been a far better GM than his dad ever was and to credit Scotty for his sons success as a GM is completely unfair and somewhat insulting to one of the best GM's in the league.

Personally I don't think he has anything to do with the Blackhawks success at all, I think he's piggy backing off his son's work now collecting rings while sitting at home in Buffalo.

Once again....

Stan Bowman did not draft the team that Chicago has iced. All the draft picks that Chicago used through 2009 were drafted by Dave Tallon. Dave was so instrumental that he was given a Stanley Cup ring when the Hawks won in 2010 AND the Hawks had his name engraved on the cup. Tallon was the guy who signed Hossa, drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, and so on.

Stan Bowman's tenure in Chicago has been littered with hits and misses. Its still too early to tell just how good of a GM he is.

[westcoastfan 0]

Maybe we need the Dominator to come back in some capacity. He was on the last two cup winning teams too.

[FlashyG 1,799]

Bowman's first coaching job was with the newly created St. Louis Blues, in the first 3 years of the Blues existance and the first 3 years of Bowman's coaching them, he took them to the Stanley Cup Finals THREE YEARS IN A ROW.

They did this with expansion draft players and a 40 year old goalie. This is one of the most astonishing coaching performances ever, and you fail to even recognize these were Stanley Cup Finals, 3 of them as a rookie coach with a rookie team.

But when you say he's the most overrated person in NHL history, with the fact that in the 48 years in the NHL, 19 of them have been in the Finals... I wonder if maybe you're thinking of Drayson Bowman... no maybe Ralph Bowman? Are you even talking about hockey?

The Blues were in a conference made up of ALL expansion teams. Every team they competed against to make the finals were also made up of guys from an expansion draft.

His teams did not win a single game in any of those 3 finals against non expansion teams.

I'm not sure being the best of the terrible teams in the league constitutes the most astonishing coaching performance ever.

As a coach I'd agree that Scotty is the best the game has ever seen, as a GM he was among the worst I've ever seen though and its the credit he gets as a "Builder" that makes me call him the most overrated person in hockey history.

[kipwinger 8,493]

Once again....

Stan Bowman did not draft the team that Chicago has iced. All the draft picks that Chicago used through 2009 were drafted by Dave Tallon. Dave was so instrumental that he was given a Stanley Cup ring when the Hawks won in 2010 AND the Hawks had his name engraved on the cup. Tallon was the guy who signed Hossa, drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, and so on.

Stan Bowman's tenure in Chicago has been littered with hits and misses. Its still too early to tell just how good of a GM he is.

Dale. Dale Tallon.

[LAWings 160]

The Blues were in a conference made up of ALL expansion teams. Every team they competed against to make the finals were also made up of guys from an expansion draft.

His teams did not win a single game in any of those 3 finals against non expansion teams.

I'm not sure being the best of the terrible teams in the league constitutes the most astonishing coaching performance ever.

As a coach I'd agree that Scotty is the best the game has ever seen, as a GM he was among the worst I've ever seen though and its the credit he gets as a "Builder" that makes me call him the most overrated person in hockey history.

I don't understand your hatred for Bowman. After 4 stellar years of coaching the Blues the Canadiens hired him where he won 5 cups. They brought him in for a reason, because he brings the best out of the team and knows how to make them win. Red Wings would win zero Cups had Bowman not shown up.

As a GM what exactly did he do to you FlashyG? How did this man hurt you so much?

When I think of 'among worst GM' I think along the lines of Mike Milbury... there's just no chance Bowman is so terrible, he wouldn't have the success he did if he was terrible at personnel changes.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

This morning, as I went to pour my daily coffee I opened the cabinet and found, to my surprise, that Scotty Bowman was inside my cupboard.

As expected, he handed me a Cup.

I liked this, then disliked it, just so I could like it again.

[Rivalred 630]

Dale. Dale Tallon.

Bond. James Bond

And yes, Tallon built that team

Edited June 19, 2015 by Rivalred