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sdogg1m

The Bowman Effect

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In many ways the RW's under Holland have returned to the days of the RW's under Murray. Skilled-yes. Able to put up points? yes. Winning Cups? No. Prior to Bowman coming on board we had tons of skilled guys that could skate. Stevie and Feds putting up 120+ point seasons. winning 55+ games per year. yet in the PO's when the refs look the other way we lost every year. Bowman changed that. Yes we still had skill, but he was the reason we added grit, size, toughness, and most importantly-everyone played D. feds become a 80 point guy and great defensive f'd. Stevie was threated with a trade if he didn't start to back check. Rouse, ramsey, Vladdy, fetisov were all added the the BL for toughness. Mccarty, lapointe, ward, Pushor, were all added through the ranks. then to put the bow on the top, we added the best POWER FORWARD in the game at the time. Not to mention smart and cheap moves for guys like Draper, Maltby, and Kocur. This group won us 3 cups. That is 12 guys who all brought grit to our lineup. That is over 50% of the roster. Do we have even 3 guys that can compare to those 12? No. those players were all Bowman's guys. he wanted them all, asked for them by name publicly. Jimmy D went out and got them. Don't forget Murphy to this group! LOL

Today, those are the guys that Holland wants to trade away. he doesn't want the gritty players that do the dirty work. But look deeper. it isn't about fighting. very few of those guys did any. or rarely did. But they were veteran guys with leadershop, experience, toughness, and many were no longer as skilled as they once were.

All of the teams that win the SC every year have skilled players, you can't win without them. But they also have toughness and grit. They may not fight, but no one does in the PO's. They all have guys that go to the corners and bang away, guys that put the body on the other teams D, most have guys that work the front of the nets as well. We don't do those things and haven't in several years. which is way we haven't come close to a SC in several years. The last 2 years we had to win our last game of the regular season to even make the PO's. Then a 1st round exit.

Now if we can see this, I am sure kenny can. The question remains, as it has been asked for several years now: What is kenny going to do about it? To date he hasn't done much. The why is the unknown.

Your memory isn't as good as you think. Bowman became coach in 93-94. Prior to that we had only been good for 2 years. (Before that we were mostly a .500 team or worse.) This notion that we were some regular-season powerhouse that fell short in the playoffs before Scotty saved us is false. We got upset in the second round by a Chicago team that ended up going to the finals, then lost in 7 games in the first round to a Toronto that was pretty much just as good as we were. The first three seasons with Bowman were all bigger upsets than anything that happened prior.

Secondly; Konstantinov, McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, and Ward were all acquired prior to Bowman. Draper came a couple weeks after, but Bowman didn't become co-GM until the next season. Ramsey wasn't part of our Cup teams. We also got rid of Ciccarelli, Drake, Burr, and Probert. It's not like Scotty came in, added "toughness", and then Cups happened. Bowman, as a coach, deserves plenty of credit for our Cups. The commitment to team defense won us the Cups, not any kind of grit.

As for the current team: Abby, Helm, Sheahan, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, and Ferraro. Maybe could include Jurco. Prospects Callahan, Bertuzzi, Nastasiuk, and I'd say AA and Larkin could be called gritty to some extent. Traded for Cole. Maybe lacking a bit on defense, but Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith aren't exactly soft (nor are Kronwall and Dekeyser for that matter).

The general talent level of our team has declined. That's why we aren't as good, not because we're too soft. If anything, we're much more gritty now than we were from '02-09.

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Your memory isn't as good as you think. Bowman became coach in 93-94. Prior to that we had only been good for 2 years. (Before that we were mostly a .500 team or worse.) This notion that we were some regular-season powerhouse that fell short in the playoffs before Scotty saved us is false. We got upset in the second round by a Chicago team that ended up going to the finals, then lost in 7 games in the first round to a Toronto that was pretty much just as good as we were. The first three seasons with Bowman were all bigger upsets than anything that happened prior.

Secondly; Konstantinov, McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, and Ward were all acquired prior to Bowman. Draper came a couple weeks after, but Bowman didn't become co-GM until the next season. Ramsey wasn't part of our Cup teams. We also got rid of Ciccarelli, Drake, Burr, and Probert. It's not like Scotty came in, added "toughness", and then Cups happened. Bowman, as a coach, deserves plenty of credit for our Cups. The commitment to team defense won us the Cups, not any kind of grit.

As for the current team: Abby, Helm, Sheahan, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, and Ferraro. Maybe could include Jurco. Prospects Callahan, Bertuzzi, Nastasiuk, and I'd say AA and Larkin could be called gritty to some extent. Traded for Cole. Maybe lacking a bit on defense, but Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith aren't exactly soft (nor are Kronwall and Dekeyser for that matter).

The general talent level of our team has declined. That's why we aren't as good, not because we're too soft. If anything, we're much more gritty now than we were from '02-09.

Maltby, Draper, Downey, McCarty, Shanahan, Fischer, Stuart, Avery, May, Drake... and probably others I'm forgetting.

All those guys are a lot grittier than most of the guys you listed.

EDIT: Holmstrom, Chelios, Lilja, Bertuzzi, Kronwall at his more physical, and a young Ericsson, Quincey, Abby, Helm, Miller and Eaves

Edited by number9

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The general talent level of our team has declined. That's why we aren't as good, not because we're too soft. If anything, we're much more gritty now than we were from '02-09.

Say wha....? You mean our 4th line lunch pail kids are grittier then the 2002 4th line GRIND LINE. 2002 also had Chelios, Shannahan and Avery...

Wings are powderpuff girls compared to that team. 2002 team is the core that did this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz4udKvoh2Q

Wings of 2015 are no where close to that level of physicality.

In 2002-03 Wings had over 1200 PIM collectively and 12th in the league, this season, 724 PIM. That's 500 LESS minutes of gritiness.

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I know I have said this before but I will say it again.

Dave Tallon deserves much of the credit for the rebuild of the Hawks. Keep in mind that he was the GM from the mid 90s to 2009. He drafted all the top talent that you see out there today. Stan Bowman has drafted some key players. Shaw was a big pickup for them in the draft. Still, the Bowmans were not a factor back when Tallon was drafting these great players.

If the Wings want to follow in the success of Chicago, then they should do what Chicago did.

1. Suck for 10+ years. Get a number of top draft picks.

2. Draft great players and develop them.

3 Sign a big free agent like Hossa.

4. ?

5. Profit

How many would be happy with missing the playoffs for a period of time to get top draft picks? Not many.

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Bowman is an advisor, he is not running the team. This thread is ridiculous

Absolutely not, the point is, Bowman is the golden goose, in 48 years in the NHL, he has been to the Finals 19 times. I don't care what capacity Scotty Bowman is on your team, special advisor to the GM, janitor in the lower level concourse or jock strap collector, his invaluable advice and experience will be most helpful. I would prefer to have him on my team in some capacity then not on my team in any capacity. Statistically speaking, the former is the better option.

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I, then they should do what Chicago did.

1. Suck for 10+ years. Get a number of top draft picks.

Don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember the latter half of the Dead Things, how terrible that era was and how painfully long it dragged on. I only recall 15 years of pain before the ship started to right, there were 15 more before that and the old geezers will gnash their teeth and pull out what's left of their hair thinking of those days... be careful what you ask for.

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I'm just so glad you know everything.

Finally, some recognition for my work. Thank you.

I love Stevie as much as the next guy, but to think he's going to skip town on a team he just brought two games from a cup is insane.Yzerman is a loyal guy and see him being loyal to Tampa as long as he keeps them competitive.

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Don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember the latter half of the Dead Things, how terrible that era was and how painfully long it dragged on. I only recall 15 years of pain before the ship started to right, there were 15 more before that and the old geezers will gnash their teeth and pull out what's left of their hair thinking of those days... be careful what you ask for.

I don't think he's asking for that, just pointing it out.

The difference between us and the Hawks is the only one we really "tanked for" was Yzerman, that is if you can even call 20+ years of sucking tanking.

Stan is a GM who's not afraid of making some treads. He has balls to trade: Buff, Ladd, Versteeg right after winning SC... Kenny's opposite

Kenny's opposite was always Holmgren. Stan's balls didn't grow three sizes in order for him to trade those guys. He traded those guys because he had to, because of the cap. They were beyond stacked after that first cup, and have been reloading ever since. I think he's more similar to Holland than different.

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I don't think he's asking for that, just pointing it out.

The difference between us and the Hawks is the only one we really "tanked for" was Yzerman, that is if you can even call 20+ years of sucking tanking.

He wanted 10 years of sucking to accumulate picks.

There was a time when Wings had 15 coaches in 17 years... don't want to suck that bad again. At that point it's called gagging and that is illegal in some states.

Screen%20shot%202015-05-11%20at%2010.12.

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He wanted 10 years of sucking to accumulate picks.

There was a time when Wings had 15 coaches in 17 years... don't want to suck that bad again. At that point it's called gagging and that is illegal in some states.

Screen%20shot%202015-05-11%20at%2010.12.

All I'll say is I agree with you. I in no way want to relive the 70s and 80s.

Things can't go any further south than Tampa, Fl.

I honestly said this to myself when I wrote that lolbut then I thought of the Panthers

Edited by number9

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Your memory isn't as good as you think. Bowman became coach in 93-94. Prior to that we had only been good for 2 years. (Before that we were mostly a .500 team or worse.) This notion that we were some regular-season powerhouse that fell short in the playoffs before Scotty saved us is false. We got upset in the second round by a Chicago team that ended up going to the finals, then lost in 7 games in the first round to a Toronto that was pretty much just as good as we were. The first three seasons with Bowman were all bigger upsets than anything that happened prior.

Secondly; Konstantinov, McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, and Ward were all acquired prior to Bowman. Draper came a couple weeks after, but Bowman didn't become co-GM until the next season. Ramsey wasn't part of our Cup teams. We also got rid of Ciccarelli, Drake, Burr, and Probert. It's not like Scotty came in, added "toughness", and then Cups happened. Bowman, as a coach, deserves plenty of credit for our Cups. The commitment to team defense won us the Cups, not any kind of grit.

As for the current team: Abby, Helm, Sheahan, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, and Ferraro. Maybe could include Jurco. Prospects Callahan, Bertuzzi, Nastasiuk, and I'd say AA and Larkin could be called gritty to some extent. Traded for Cole. Maybe lacking a bit on defense, but Quincey, Ericsson, and Smith aren't exactly soft (nor are Kronwall and Dekeyser for that matter).

The general talent level of our team has declined. That's why we aren't as good, not because we're too soft. If anything, we're much more gritty now than we were from '02-09.

What are you talking about? Prior to Bowman coming we were a PO team every year but won. Had won multiple Division crowns and made deep runs in the PO's. have you forgotten the back to back defeats to the oilers in the mid/late 80's in the CF's?

Ramsey was on our roster in 96/97, it was his last year. he was also on the 95 team that lost to the devils. But of course you know all of this. You are just refusing to fact reality. Bowman was the reason we became a Cup team. Period. The skill was there before him, but the Cups came with him. holland was handed a loaded team. Had a HOF coach running things. Talking about an easy job, he had it. Since Bowman and our stars have left we have gotten worse year after year. UFA's don't come anymore and Holland isn't making trades. So what happens in the future? I bet we miss the PO's soon. Could well be this year baring some major moves. That is on Holland and only Holland. now can he change the direction of the team? yes. Will he? Stay tuned......

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What are you talking about? Prior to Bowman coming we were a PO team every year but won. Had won multiple Division crowns and made deep runs in the PO's. have you forgotten the back to back defeats to the oilers in the mid/late 80's in the CF's?

Ramsey was on our roster in 96/97, it was his last year. he was also on the 95 team that lost to the devils. But of course you know all of this. You are just refusing to fact reality. Bowman was the reason we became a Cup team. Period. The skill was there before him, but the Cups came with him. holland was handed a loaded team. Had a HOF coach running things. Talking about an easy job, he had it. Since Bowman and our stars have left we have gotten worse year after year. UFA's don't come anymore and Holland isn't making trades. So what happens in the future? I bet we miss the PO's soon. Could well be this year baring some major moves. That is on Holland and only Holland. now can he change the direction of the team? yes. Will he? Stay tuned......

The narrative since 2010 lol. Strangely, it hasn't happened...

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Maltby, Draper, Downey, McCarty, Shanahan, Fischer, Stuart, Avery, May, Drake... and probably others I'm forgetting.

All those guys are a lot grittier than most of the guys you listed.

EDIT: Holmstrom, Chelios, Lilja, Bertuzzi, Kronwall at his more physical, and a young Ericsson, Quincey, Abby, Helm, Miller and Eaves

May, Miller, Eaves, and Bert didn't come here until 2010 (except for Bert's brief stint in 07). Quincey was barely a part of any of those teams. Abby too. Helm and Ericsson really only for the playoffs. Shanahan, McCarty, Avery and Fischer were gone before we added Downey, Stuart, or Drake. (And Avery never even played a full season here.) It's not like all those guys were on the same team, and I wasn't saying our current team is grittier than all the collective gritty players we went through during that whole decade.

While "much more gritty" probably isn't right, our current group (Abby, Helm, Glendening, Miller, Sheahan, Jurco, Andersson, Ericsson, Quincey, Smith) compares well against any single Wings team from that era. Maybe not in the fighting department, but Rich made it clear that that wasn't what he meant by "grit", so I assumed it would be clear that I didn't either.

Say wha....? You mean our 4th line lunch pail kids are grittier then the 2002 4th line GRIND LINE. 2002 also had Chelios, Shannahan and Avery...

Wings are powderpuff girls compared to that team. 2002 team is the core that did this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz4udKvoh2Q

Wings of 2015 are no where close to that level of physicality.

In 2002-03 Wings had over 1200 PIM collectively and 12th in the league, this season, 724 PIM. That's 500 LESS minutes of gritiness.

Again, not talking about fighting. Fights and penalties were much more common back then. If our current players played back then they would have fought more often, likely taken more penalties, etc. Pittsburgh led the league in penalty minutes with 1123 this year. One of 2 teams over 1000. In 02 there were 26, and Pit would have been 22nd. Florida had 120 majors that year, the top 3 teams this year combined for 118. Winnipeg's 374 minors led the league this year, would have been 23rd. There were 46 game misconducts assessed this year. 186 in 02. Florida alone had 18. Different era. Doesn't necessarily mean "grittier". Even if it did, if the whole league is collectively less gritty and we're still in relatively the same place, then it's still a wash.

What are you talking about? Prior to Bowman coming we were a PO team every year but won. Had won multiple Division crowns and made deep runs in the PO's. have you forgotten the back to back defeats to the oilers in the mid/late 80's in the CF's?

Ramsey was on our roster in 96/97, it was his last year. he was also on the 95 team that lost to the devils. But of course you know all of this. You are just refusing to fact reality. Bowman was the reason we became a Cup team. Period. The skill was there before him, but the Cups came with him. holland was handed a loaded team. Had a HOF coach running things. Talking about an easy job, he had it. Since Bowman and our stars have left we have gotten worse year after year. UFA's don't come anymore and Holland isn't making trades. So what happens in the future? I bet we miss the PO's soon. Could well be this year baring some major moves. That is on Holland and only Holland. now can he change the direction of the team? yes. Will he? Stay tuned......

In the 8 seasons from 83-84 through 90-91 we finished below .500 six times and missed the playoffs twice. Our best year being 93 points (5th overall, 3rd in conference, lost to the Oilers.) Next best was the year after with 80 points. Those were the two division titles. Hence the "mostly .500 or worse" comment. The two years immediately prior to Bowman coming in we were starting to get good (98 and 103 points). Top seed in the conference in 92 and got swept in the second round by Chicago. 2nd in our division in 93, led the league in scoring, lost in 7 to Toronto who finished 4 points behind us and had the 2nd best defense in the league. Disappointing for sure, but hardly "winning 55+ games per year. yet in the PO's when the refs look the other way we lost every year".

And I gave Bowman plenty of credit for our Cups. I just disagree that it had anything to do with team toughness or personnel decisions made by Bowman. Sure, some of the guys he helped bring in were invaluable, but most of the team was already here. Personally, I think we'd have still won if we'd kept Primeau and Ciccarelli and not added Larionov and Shanahan.

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I know you gave this a lot of thought, but there is zero percent chance that the current Wings or any line we have is grittiter then the Grind Line. The mere name "Grind Line" really implies what they were. That 4th line pulverized other lines and they could actually score when it mattered. Our lunch pail kid 4th line plus Abby is just no where near those guys.

I don't know what metrics you are using to determine this, but it seems you are at vast odds with the rest of the community comparing this team to the past teams.

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You all make excellent points was a pleasant read. Nobody argues against Bowman's capabilities as a coach and he certainly hasn't messed up as a GM. As to some sort of effect, only (a little more) time will tell in my opinion.

But you guys are forgetting something when throwing in the Red Wings in the discussion. We have a great prospect coming up in Daniel Cleary, who will probably be signed for another contract with Detroit. Something tells me he's the next Bowman.

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May, Miller, Eaves, and Bert didn't come here until 2010 (except for Bert's brief stint in 07). Quincey was barely a part of any of those teams. Abby too. Helm and Ericsson really only for the playoffs. Shanahan, McCarty, Avery and Fischer were gone before we added Downey, Stuart, or Drake. (And Avery never even played a full season here.) It's not like all those guys were on the same team, and I wasn't saying our current team is grittier than all the collective gritty players we went through during that whole decade.

While "much more gritty" probably isn't right, our current group (Abby, Helm, Glendening, Miller, Sheahan, Jurco, Andersson, Ericsson, Quincey, Smith) compares well against any single Wings team from that era. Maybe not in the fighting department, but Rich made it clear that that wasn't what he meant by "grit", so I assumed it would be clear that I didn't either.

Again, not talking about fighting. Fights and penalties were much more common back then. If our current players played back then they would have fought more often, likely taken more penalties, etc. Pittsburgh led the league in penalty minutes with 1123 this year. One of 2 teams over 1000. In 02 there were 26, and Pit would have been 22nd. Florida had 120 majors that year, the top 3 teams this year combined for 118. Winnipeg's 374 minors led the league this year, would have been 23rd. There were 46 game misconducts assessed this year. 186 in 02. Florida alone had 18. Different era. Doesn't necessarily mean "grittier". Even if it did, if the whole league is collectively less gritty and we're still in relatively the same place, then it's still a wash.

In the 8 seasons from 83-84 through 90-91 we finished below .500 six times and missed the playoffs twice. Our best year being 93 points (5th overall, 3rd in conference, lost to the Oilers.) Next best was the year after with 80 points. Those were the two division titles. Hence the "mostly .500 or worse" comment. The two years immediately prior to Bowman coming in we were starting to get good (98 and 103 points). Top seed in the conference in 92 and got swept in the second round by Chicago. 2nd in our division in 93, led the league in scoring, lost in 7 to Toronto who finished 4 points behind us and had the 2nd best defense in the league. Disappointing for sure, but hardly "winning 55+ games per year. yet in the PO's when the refs look the other way we lost every year".

And I gave Bowman plenty of credit for our Cups. I just disagree that it had anything to do with team toughness or personnel decisions made by Bowman. Sure, some of the guys he helped bring in were invaluable, but most of the team was already here. Personally, I think we'd have still won if we'd kept Primeau and Ciccarelli and not added Larionov and Shanahan.

That is your opinion. Murray hired Bowman and Bowman chased him out of town. Bowman and Jimmy D ran the team for a couple of years, made tons of changes to the lineup and style of play, then we started to win cups. Go back to the 95 team that got swept by the Devils. Remember how we HAD to use Grimson in the top 6 because no one else could handle the physical play. Shortly thereafter Kocur came home to be "a policeman" not an enforcer-Bowmans words. That was the creation of the Grind Line: Maltby-Draper-Kocur. No one on our current team could break that line. maybe Datsyuk could if we chose to use him like that. But hey all is fine! Kum by ya......

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I'm going to make this short. Scotty has a brilliant hockey mind, however no one single person is solely responsible for turning a franchise into a dynasty. Too meany people are involved, from the scouting department to the owner, for 1 person to be awarded credit. Which is one of the reasons why Toronto flushed money down the drain for Babs,but that's not important at the moment. Over the years there are only a handful of people that can confidently say "I'm most responsible for the success of a franchise." One being George Steinbrenner and the other Mike Illitch these two guys turned their franchises dominant.

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