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sdogg1m

The Bowman Effect

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Big elephant in the room. We have not won a cup in seven years and haven't been to a final in six. Scotty Bowman leaves our organization and makes an instant impact on the Hawks. They have won three cups since he left. I think the organization has drifted from a philosophy that helped build a winner and I would like to see us return. The philosophy is hire the best and let them work. We poached the Islanders chief executive when they were winning cups and then we poached Scotty not far removed from Pittsburgh's run. Scotty left and then Steve Yzerman. I know the conventional wisdom is that we couldn't keep them which may be true. However, I hope the front office is working to figure out ways to bring these men back. In short, we should begin once again work to bring the best brains in the NHL back into the fold not see them leave.

In this age of player parody, front office brain power is emphasized and we let two extremely talented men leave the fold.

You probably could include Jim Nill as well but his impact hasn't been nearly as large as Scotty's was.

Detroit Redwings - Post Bowman
2008-2009 51-19-10 Regular Season, Lost Stanley Cup Finals
2009-2010 44-24-14 Regular Season, Lost Western Conference Semifinals
2010-2011 47-25-10 Regular Season, Lost Western Conference Semifinals
2011-2012 48-28-6 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2012-2013 24-16-8 Regular Season, Lost Western Conference Semifinals
2013-2014 39-28-15 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2014-2015 43-25-14 Regular Season, Lost First Round
Chicago Blackhaws - Bowman Era
2008-2009 46-24-12 Regular Season, Lost Western Conference Finals
2009-2010 52-22-8 Regular Seasons, Won Stanley Cup
2010-2011 44-29-9 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2011-2012 45-26-11 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2012-2013 36-7-5 Regular Season, Won Stanley Cup
2013-2014 46-21-15 Regular Season, Lost Western Conference Finals
2014-2015 48-28-6 Regular Season, Won Stanley Cup
Tampa Bay Lightning - Steve Yzerman Era
2009-2010 34-36-12 Regular Season, Pre-Yzerman
2010-2011 46-25-11 Regular Season, Lost Easter Conference Finals
2011-2012 38-36-8 Regular Season, No Postseason
2012-2013 18-26-4 Regular Season, No Postseason
2013-2014 46-27-9 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2014-2015 50-24-8 Regular Season, Lost Stanley Cup Finals
Dallas Stars - Jim Nill Era
2012-2013 22-22-4 - Pre Jim Nill
2013-2014 40-31-11 Regular Season, Lost First Round
2014-2015 41-31-10 Regular Season, No Postseason
Jim Nill's impact has remain to be seen but he has been granted time in Dallas. Steve Yzerman has clearly made the right changes in Tampa Bay and their team is on the rise. The largest loss impact wise is Bowman. Chicago has developed into a dynasty with him and his son. Should also be noted that they are doing so with Joel Quenneville as coach, a man who Scotty was able to dominate in the 90s. Our beloved franchise has seen better days, we could conclude that this is due to the youth movement in Detroit but I don't think this movement is helped by a brain drain in Detroit. I don't see the Red Wings coming close to competing for a Stanley Cup in the next two years. I hope to see something year three but if nothing happens, I would hope that big changes would be made in the front office.
Edited by sdogg1m

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I think it has less to do with Bowman, and more to do with Lidstrom.

Lidstrom was the driving force behind a lot of the team's success since at least 2002, and perhaps even since '98. I don't think it's a huge surprise that as he aged and declined the team kept slipping further from cup contention. Now that he's gone, the team is NOT a contender.

When you have a guy that plays half the game and makes no mistakes, then you can effectively cover up a lot of other weaknesses.

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I think it has less to do with Bowman, and more to do with Lidstrom.

Lidstrom was the driving force behind a lot of the team's success since at least 2002, and perhaps even since '98. I don't think it's a huge surprise that as he aged and declined the team kept slipping further from cup contention. Now that he's gone, the team is NOT a contender.

When you have a guy that plays half the game and makes no mistakes, then you can effectively cover up a lot of other weaknesses.

I would agree that Lidstrom is absolutely the reason our defense has declined. However, we must also include the ascent of the Blackhawks which culminated upon the hire of Scotty. Sure, we need to shore up our defense and no one will replace a Nick Lidstrom but I don't see any moves being made to change this. Also, I don't see a reason for accepting mediocrity even in this post salary cap world.

My thoughts are, if giving a head coach a contract extension beyond five years when he has been here ten is too long then shouldn't the organization have the same type of thinking with the front office? Regardless, Chicago is absolutely hot right now, I have no doubt it is partly due to their product on the ice but it is also because of their front office. Our organization used to go after those guys.

Edited by sdogg1m

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I think you're overestimating Bowman's influence and underestimating the strength of the Blackhawks' roster. Bowman didn't join Chicago's office until after they had acquired Toews, Kane, Keith, and developed a solid supporting cast to help out these generational talents. I'm sure when his son wants his advice on something, Scotty is happy to help him out, but I hardly think that the Blackhawks' success is a result of Scotty Bowman's mastermind. I think a more accurate scenario is that he's just going along for the ride.

Yzerman also inherited some franchise pieces in Stamkos and Hedman. And if we're looking for reasons why the Blackhawks and Tampa made it to the finals and the Wings didn't, I think the first place you have to look is at the core of these teams. As I alluded to, Yzerman's core is in their prime and wouldn't be possible without having those high draft picks. Chicago's core is in their prime and wouldn't be possible without having high draft picks. The Wings' core is aging, and is entirely a product of later picks in the draft. The supporting cast is there for the Wings, but the core isn't what it used to be. Bringing Yzerman or Bowman or Nill back to Detroit won't change that scenario. They aren't going to magically bring in players of Toews' and Hedman's calibre, not without the Wings suffering an epic collapse for a few years in a row. After all, that's how Chicago and Tampa Bay got their elite talent.

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I think that the wings are in a lonesome category here as no other team has been as in the mix to win year after year etc. the result obviously is far less bang for our buck in drafting which has an eventual effect on the team IF the GM doesnt make some bold moves...

...Holland needs to at some point pull a rabbit out of a hat here to get the big red machine going again, as people say over and over, Ken was put n a great position with a hell of a club and hasnt made that big splash since when, the Hoss?

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Several points that tie into each other:

-Someone else sees the Bowman effect and it cannot be understated! Except for Buffalo, who no one can help, the Stanley Cup follows Bowman and I don't think it's coincidence in Chicago either. 14 Cups in one capacity or another plus another 4 Finals appearances where he didn't win, that's 19 Finals appearances since he started in 1967. If Scotty Bowman is the janitor in your building, that makes you an immediate Cup contender.

-The decline really picked up when Brian Rafalski left 2 years after Bowman, if you look at the standings and defense numbers. Not filling it with a proper partner for Lidstrom and getting a top pair Dmen to replace Lids/Rafalski has been a huge problem that everyone knows about and I don't need to rehash it here.

-Ken Holland needs to go. He doesn't know why free agents won't come to Detroit, he keeps saying there is no one to land on the free market yet all of our competitors have no problems landing free agents (Tampa, Minnesota...). I think the Illitches need to look hard at moving Kenny, he is unable to keep up with the modern trends and it shows. Yzerman went to Tampa and has not been afraid to trade core players, and he signed key defensmen, and has turned the team completely around, he looks like a friggin' genius with what he's done the last few years (trading for Bishop, signing Flip, trading St. Louis, buying out Vinnie, signing Hedman, Stralman, signing super huge goalies and defense, that's not coincidence that whole back end is over 6'5", etc. etc. etc.). Other GMs also have no problems trading and signing, it's time for a regime change, the era of Holland is not working anymore.

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Several points that tie into each other:

-Someone else sees the Bowman effect and it cannot be understated! Except for Buffalo, who no one can help, the Stanley Cup follows Bowman and I don't think it's coincidence in Chicago either. 14 Cups in one capacity or another plus another 4 Finals appearances where he didn't win, that's 19 Finals appearances since he started in 1967. If Scotty Bowman is the janitor in your building, that makes you an immediate Cup contender.

-The decline really picked up when Brian Rafalski left 2 years after Bowman, if you look at the standings and defense numbers. Not filling it with a proper partner for Lidstrom and getting a top pair Dmen to replace Lids/Rafalski has been a huge problem that everyone knows about and I don't need to rehash it here.

-Ken Holland needs to go. He doesn't know why free agents won't come to Detroit, he keeps saying there is no one to land on the free market yet all of our competitors have no problems landing free agents (Tampa, Minnesota...). I think the Illitches need to look hard at moving Kenny, he is unable to keep up with the modern trends and it shows. Yzerman went to Tampa and has not been afraid to trade core players, and he signed key defensmen, and has turned the team completely around, he looks like a friggin' genius with what he's done the last few years (trading for Bishop, signing Flip, trading St. Louis, buying out Vinnie, signing Hedman, Stralman, signing super huge goalies and defense, that's not coincidence that whole back end is over 6'5", etc. etc. etc.). Other GMs also have no problems trading and signing, it's time for a regime change, the era of Holland is not working anymore.

And this team of Yzerman's that is in a "win-now" window barely beat a Wings team that is rebuilding.

Holland > Yzerman all day long.

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Bologna. There is no "Bowman Affect". Chicago wins because they have superb talent (not drafted by a Bowman) and superb coaching (not hired by a Bowman).

People just want to attach Bowman's name to it because they love hero worship. Everybody loves piling on to a legacy. Scotty Bowman's affect on the Chicago Blackhawks is negligible. They were trending up before Bowman came around, and they'd have been a winner without him.

Take a look at the guys Dale Tallon is drafting down in Florida. Look familiar?

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In many ways the RW's under Holland have returned to the days of the RW's under Murray. Skilled-yes. Able to put up points? yes. Winning Cups? No. Prior to Bowman coming on board we had tons of skilled guys that could skate. Stevie and Feds putting up 120+ point seasons. winning 55+ games per year. yet in the PO's when the refs look the other way we lost every year. Bowman changed that. Yes we still had skill, but he was the reason we added grit, size, toughness, and most importantly-everyone played D. feds become a 80 point guy and great defensive f'd. Stevie was threated with a trade if he didn't start to back check. Rouse, ramsey, Vladdy, fetisov were all added the the BL for toughness. Mccarty, lapointe, ward, Pushor, were all added through the ranks. then to put the bow on the top, we added the best POWER FORWARD in the game at the time. Not to mention smart and cheap moves for guys like Draper, Maltby, and Kocur. This group won us 3 cups. That is 12 guys who all brought grit to our lineup. That is over 50% of the roster. Do we have even 3 guys that can compare to those 12? No. those players were all Bowman's guys. he wanted them all, asked for them by name publicly. Jimmy D went out and got them. Don't forget Murphy to this group! LOL

Today, those are the guys that Holland wants to trade away. he doesn't want the gritty players that do the dirty work. But look deeper. it isn't about fighting. very few of those guys did any. or rarely did. But they were veteran guys with leadershop, experience, toughness, and many were no longer as skilled as they once were.

All of the teams that win the SC every year have skilled players, you can't win without them. But they also have toughness and grit. They may not fight, but no one does in the PO's. They all have guys that go to the corners and bang away, guys that put the body on the other teams D, most have guys that work the front of the nets as well. We don't do those things and haven't in several years. which is way we haven't come close to a SC in several years. The last 2 years we had to win our last game of the regular season to even make the PO's. Then a 1st round exit.

Now if we can see this, I am sure kenny can. The question remains, as it has been asked for several years now: What is kenny going to do about it? To date he hasn't done much. The why is the unknown.

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And this team of Yzerman's that is in a "win-now" window barely beat a Wings team that is rebuilding.

Holland > Yzerman all day long.

So because we lost by a small margin that makes the Red Wings a better team then the Lightening? The Yzerman team has gone to the Conference Finals twice and Stanley Cup Finals once since he left, Wings can't even make it out of the first round. Tampa not only beat the Wings, but they beat other teams that were much better then the Wings to make it so deep in the playoffs. I don't understand your logic, Tampa was the 2nd best team last year, 2nd in scoring and look how deep in the playoffs they are.

What exactly are you using to measure success of the Red Wings vs. our peers? How do you figure Red Wings are a better team when we barely made the playoffs this year (we only made it because other teams lost so much).

Someone showed the stat yesterday that any coach behind the bench more then 5 years has not won the Cup, so I wonder how that translates to the GM?

It's just time, even Steve Jobs got fired from Apple, the company he founded, because things weren't working and they needed a new direction, so the board let him go.

Change is good.

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So because we lost by a small margin that makes the Red Wings a better team then the Lightening? The Yzerman team has gone to the Conference Finals twice and Stanley Cup Finals once since he left, Wings can't even make it out of the first round. Tampa not only beat the Wings, but they beat other teams that were much better then the Wings to make it so deep in the playoffs. I don't understand your logic, Tampa was the 2nd best team last year, 2nd in scoring and look how deep in the playoffs they are.

What exactly are you using to measure success of the Red Wings vs. our peers? How do you figure Red Wings are a better team when we barely made the playoffs this year (we only made it because other teams lost so much).

Someone showed the stat yesterday that any coach behind the bench more then 5 years has not won the Cup, so I wonder how that translates to the GM?

It's just time, even Steve Jobs got fired from Apple, the company he founded, because things weren't working and they needed a new direction, so the board let him go.

Change is good.

Bad analogy. Apple completely fell apart during the period without Jobs. The product declined significantly, and the company was forced to restructure entirely. Ultimately Jobs was brought back, the company surged under his leadership, and he remained the primary creative force responsible for Apple's explosion in the modern era. In that role he remained, until death.

The grass is not always greener.

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Anyone who thinks losing to Yzerman equals winning can exit the thread now.

I am sure that we can all agree that the Wings will not contend the next two years for a cup. On year three is it time to make front office moves to try and get us back to finals contention?

Basically what I see in Chicago is the blueprint that Detroit employed in the late 80s and early 90s coming up from being perennial losers. We got comfortable with winning and I am starting to think we let the wrong people get away and kept the wrong ones. If this is the case then the organization has to go back to the blueprint of trying to hire the best talent even if it means realizing that that current employees within the organization must go.

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Anyone who thinks losing to Yzerman equals winning can exit the thread now.

I am sure that we can all agree that the Wings will not contend the next two years for a cup. On year three is it time to make front office moves to try and get us back to finals contention?

Basically what I see in Chicago is the blueprint that Detroit employed in the late 80s and early 90s coming up from being perennial losers. We got comfortable with winning and I am starting to think we let the wrong people get away and kept the wrong ones. If this is the case then the organization has to go back to the blueprint of trying to hire the best talent even if it means realizing that that current employees within the organization must go.

Bingo.

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Bad analogy. Apple completely fell apart during the period without Jobs. The product declined significantly, and the company was forced to restructure entirely. Ultimately Jobs was brought back, the company surged under his leadership, and he remained the primary creative force responsible for Apple's explosion in the modern era. In that role he remained, until death.

The grass is not always greener.

I never said it was a successful move on their part. :lol: My point is that it was time for a change, under his leadership everything stagnated and they felt a new direction and leadership was needed (that and he was an incredibly difficult ******* to work with and for etc etc we all know the story). But they actually did something and changed the top, Illitch can do the same thing. And if it doesn't work, just do what Apple did and bring Holland back, or dig up Steve Jobs and prop him up in the front office as GM, at this point the results will be the same.

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Anyone who thinks losing to Yzerman equals winning can exit the thread now.

I am sure that we can all agree that the Wings will not contend the next two years for a cup. On year three is it time to make front office moves to try and get us back to finals contention?

Basically what I see in Chicago is the blueprint that Detroit employed in the late 80s and early 90s coming up from being perennial losers. We got comfortable with winning and I am starting to think we let the wrong people get away and kept the wrong ones. If this is the case then the organization has to go back to the blueprint of trying to hire the best talent even if it means realizing that that current employees within the organization must go.

I don't know how Scotty does but he just wins wherever he goes (I'm not counting Buffalo because that situation was ....). Year 3 could easily be a new low because Pasha will be gone by then and unless Larkin is on the verge of becoming a top 6 center or Holland pulling a rabbit out of his head the offense and defense will take another hit.

Bowman, Q and Stan Bowman all played a huge part in Chicago's success but let's not forget it all starts at the top => Rocky Wirtz. That guy took over from his dad and absolutely revamped the franchise by reestablishing a connection with former greats, get them a local TV deal and open his massive bank account for business. Then they've assembled their core around Toews, Kane, Keith but they've also added great free agents such as Hossa.

Yzerman revamped the Lightning from losers to 1 ECF appearance and 1 SCF in 4 years, plus added a ton of talent to their AHL franchise. Nill went to Dallas saw they've needed centers and in comes Seguin plus Spezza..

Holland for whatever reason has become gun shy and to emotionally attached to this group,he bemoans free-agents not wanting to come here and then goes "I don't know why"...well here is a hint maybe because the Wings aren't what they used to be and everyone is worried what will happen when Pasha is done ? and then turns around and praises "parity" I mean seriously ? Your job is to use every loophole and the blank cheque of the best owner in all of sports to ice a winner (on the ice and in the front office) or at least a team that's young and exciting to watch not soft as butter and filled with ~ 180 lbs player. Wings right now can't get the top free-agents so the only other options are either trades or some bad finishes to get a generational center and defender, which is another problem because guys like Toews, McDavid, Eichel and Crosby are the exception not the norm.

But other GMs are having the same problems and they deal with them a lot better. The new arena will open next year and it would be nice to open this thing with a big bang instead of going into another season with the outlook of barely making the playoffs or another first round exit, that's not Red Wings style. Wings style is giving 75 % and still dominating 70 % of the league we've used to be that team but Holland waited too long and now teams like the Hawks are what the Wings used to be pains to type that. No doubt Holland has tons of experience and an eye for talents but I think it's obvious that he has lost the passion and fire he once had and that's why I wanted him to become the VP and let someone like Nil or Stevie do the GM thing.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Bad analogy. Apple completely fell apart during the period without Jobs. The product declined significantly, and the company was forced to restructure entirely. Ultimately Jobs was brought back, the company surged under his leadership, and he remained the primary creative force responsible for Apple's explosion in the modern era. In that role he remained, until death.

The grass is not always greener.

Says the guy who wanted Babcock gone.

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Ha. Thanks smart ass.

So Holland will have one year left on his contract, so hell have to step down, accept the president of hockey ops job.

Hire yzerman.

then tell bowman to come and work with his old captain.

Then we win a cup.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter

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Yzerman is signed for 3 more years. Bowman is going no where, he's living out his golden years, winning cups with his son... Stanley, whom he named the same year he won his first Cup.

Unless Holland is moved to make room for Yzerman in 3 years, I doubt anything will change.

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