Who is the better player Zetterberg or Toews. Prime vs. Present

[wings87 1,290]

How were they similar in prime when their offensive numbers were miles apart. Toews has yet to get a second season with 70+ points. Getting 70+ points in a season for Z is considered normal.

Yes Zetterberg put up more points, and in that respect he was a better player. I'd also argue that the Wings teams in Z's prime were better then the current Blackhawks teams, which improved Z's stats. Would Toewes have had more points if he played with Pav, Hull, and Lidstrom? Possibly. IMHO numbers not withstanding, Toews and Z are similar type players. However if you want to argue that Z had a better career? Then I agree with you.

[kliq 3,755]

You can't just say "Hank never had the skill Toews has" without giving some good details to this.

Here I'll say it.

Zetterberg (in prime) was better than Toews (in prime) in all aspects of hockey except faceoffs and shootouts. Everything else. Z was better. If someone can prove otherwise I'm all ears....

This is the point of this thread. Lot of people want to say Toews was better. Or Z was better. But not much is said when asked about HOW Toews is better.

"Well TSN said it so it must be true"

Ill do it the other way around

Zetterberg was a better goal scorer

Zetterberg was a better playmaker

Zetterberg was a better leader

Defensively, I honestly dont know, they are both pretty good. The only thing Toews may have on Z is that he is a bit more durable.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Voted Tayes for both.

If, however, there was a third category for "peak", I would give to Zetterberg. His 2008 and 2009 form is better than Tayes at any point.

How were they similar in prime when their offensive numbers were miles apart. Toews has yet to get a second season with 70+ points. Getting 70+ points in a season for Z is considered normal.

You need to look at it in context.

I had a thread here recently about how few 30 goal scorers and PPG players there were last season. I feel like high scoring totals are absent from the game.

When Zetterberg was in his peak, top players put up more points. Datsyuk's 97 points in 2008 and 2009 would win the Art Ross trophy easily this past season.

Z didn't look healthy all season to me. Right now Toews is better. If Hank is 100% he's still as good as anyone.

I can't wait for his five year injury bug to finally heal.

Edited August 2, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Ill do it the other way around

Zetterberg was a better goal scorer

Zetterberg was a better playmaker

Zetterberg was a better leader

Defensively, I honestly dont know, they are both pretty good. The only thing Toews may have on Z is that he is a bit more durable.

Toews is 8 years in. He's missed 57 games. In Zetterberg's first 8 seasons, he missed 70 games. Not a huge difference, especially when you consider that Z played a harder game than Toews does.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Yes Zetterberg put up more points, and in that respect he was a better player. I'd also argue that the Wings teams in Z's prime were better then the current Blackhawks teams, which improved Z's stats. Would Toewes have had more points if he played with Pav, Hull, and Lidstrom? Possibly. IMHO numbers not withstanding, Toews and Z are similar type players. However if you want to argue that Z had a better career? Then I agree with you.

The thing is Toews is still in his prime and baring some injuries he should continue to get even better, which is a damn scary thought for the rest of the NHL given how freaking good he already is. In terms of prime we have yet to see how long it will last and what he can do in hiis prime, we've seen and thankfully witnessed what Z could do especially at his peak and that was easily a top 5 performance. Sadly his back didn't quite hold up so his peak and even prime were cut short, which obviously is a f****** shame.

In terms who had it harder that's tough to say sure the Blackhawks ar e an awesome team right now but I still think our top rosters (especially the 2002) were much better than their current team. When it comes to the defense overall I think Toews has had to work harder because the Hawks while having an elite guy in Keith never had someone like Lidas playing god for 60 minutes.

Also keep this in mind: Toews will already be in the HHOF no matter what happens from here on, Z might have to wait a bit but I think he will make it and of course Toews, Kane and Keith can already book their number retiring ceremonies at the ages of 27 and 31 unbelievable but of course the bar isn't as high in Chicago as it is in Detroit.

Edited August 2, 2015 by frankgrimes

[kickazz 5,459]

I can't wait for his five year injury bug to finally heal.

He's been healthy. He got hurt in 2014 season, got surgery and it basically ended his year.

He got hit to the head by Benn this year and his performance went down quite a bit. Other than those two situations he's been just fine. 2013 season he did really well. 2012 was so so but he dominated at the World Championship after playoffs ended. 2011 was an 80 point season so that was good as well.

PS - i know you were being sarcastic I just wanted to clear it up for anyone who thinks he's been on some sort of lingering injury.

Edited August 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Yes Zetterberg put up more points, and in that respect he was a better player. I'd also argue that the Wings teams in Z's prime were better then the current Blackhawks teams, which improved Z's stats. Would Toewes have had more points if he played with Pav, Hull, and Lidstrom? Possibly. IMHO numbers not withstanding, Toews and Z are similar type players. However if you want to argue that Z had a better career? Then I agree with you.

Okay lets say that is true.

How about this: Toews CURRENTLY has a better roster than Zetterberg - Yet Z puts up 48 points in 46 games and Toews puts up the EXACT same amount of points in 47 games in 2013 season.

Let's keep going..

2013 playoffs- Z puts up 12 points in 14 games. Toews puts up 14 points in 23 games. Ouch. That's pretty bad.

2014 - lets throw that out because Z only played half of that season.

2015- Z puts up 66 points in 77 games. Toews puts up 66 points in 81 games - Ouch.

2015 Playoffs - Toews 21 points in 23 - very good. Z 3 points in 7 - not so good.

Toews is well into his prime btw. Z is well past his prime. Toews has a much better team than Z to work with too.

So no I don't believe for a minute that Toews "would have" done better with better players. He already has better players on his roster and he can't put up higher numbers than Z who is on a worse roster.

Edited August 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

None of this equates to how Toews is better in prime.

People say they're similar players. Okay I'll agree with that. If they're similar then how come Z reached a higher potential than Toews? Okay I guess he had Lidstrom and Hull and Datsyuk and blah blah blah. (That's a weak argument imo seeing as though Toews had Hossa, Keith, Kane, Crawford). But okay I'll go with it for now.

Then I ask this question. How come Z is STILL producing at the SAME level as Toews who is well into his prime while Z is well PAST his prime?

Hmm...

I guess that answer must then be that Zetterberg has a higher potential than Toews.

If what we see today from Toews is his best- and if Z is easily matching it. Then I'm disappointed... I'd expect the number 3 player in the world to be able to outscore a 34 year old!

All these talk is just numbers anyway. We haven't even talked about a head to head matchup. If that was another way to compare then we know who won that right?

There has not been one solid argument as to why Toews > Zetterberg.

The numbers prove otherwise, the head to head matchup in 2013 playoffs prove otherwise.

Edited August 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

You need to look at it in context.

I had a thread here recently about how few 30 goal scorers and PPG players there were last season. I feel like high scoring totals are absent from the game.

When Zetterberg was in his peak, top players put up more points. Datsyuk's 97 points in 2008 and 2009 would win the Art Ross trophy easily this past season.

You're right.

Here's my context.

Toews age 27 - 66 points in 81 games - well into prime

Zetterberg age 34 - 66 points in 77 games - well past prime. (rest of the details in above post)

I'm not sure how much more context I can look at..

Edited August 2, 2015 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

Toews is 8 years in. He's missed 57 games. In Zetterberg's first 8 seasons, he missed 70 games. Not a huge difference, especially when you consider that Z played a harder game than Toews does.

I guess that's fair. The injury bug didn't really start hitting Z until later on in his career. I guess you cant really compare career to career until they are both retired.

[kliq 3,755]

The thing is Toews is still in his prime and baring some injuries he should continue to get even better, which is a damn scary thought for the rest of the NHL given how freaking good he already is. In terms of prime we have yet to see how long it will last and what he can do in hiis prime, we've seen and thankfully witnessed what Z could do especially at his peak and that was easily a top 5 performance. Sadly his back didn't quite hold up so his peak and even prime were cut short, which obviously is a f****** shame.

In terms who had it harder that's tough to say sure the Blackhawks ar e an awesome team right now but I still think our top rosters (especially the 2002) were much better than their current team. When it comes to the defense overall I think Toews has had to work harder because the Hawks while having an elite guy in Keith never had someone like Lidas playing god for 60 minutes.

Also keep this in mind: Toews will already be in the HHOF no matter what happens from here on, Z might have to wait a bit but I think he will make it and of course Toews, Kane and Keith can already book their number retiring ceremonies at the ages of 27 and 31 unbelievable but of course the bar isn't as high in Chicago as it is in Detroit.

How is the 2002 roster relevant when comparing Z to Toews? Z didnt start playing until the 2002/2003 season. Plus, Z didnt really become an elite player until 2006 anyways.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Toews right now, Zetterberg in his prime. Toews doesn't ever put up big point totals, and more often than not falls asleep in playoff series but OH HE BACK CHECKS AND IS FROM WINNIPEG.

[lomekian 201]

At his peak zetterberg was the superior player. Neutered Crosby twice in the scf - was a PPG player in Reg and post season on a roster with 3 all time greats and a boat load of filler. Could be a goalscorer on the wing or a playmaker at centre. Could be the shut down guy or the top goal scorer. For 4 years was probably the too 2 way forward in the league or shared the accolade with dats. Serious big game warrior.

Now, gotta be the Chicago boy. Hank will probably play more on the wing and has lost a step of mobility and has ongoing back issues. Also his shooting % has fallen off a cliff over the last 3 years. But in a one on one game 7 it'd probably still be tight.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

You're right.

Here's my context.

Toews age 27 - 66 points in 81 games - well into prime

Zetterberg age 34 - 66 points in 77 games - well past prime. (rest of the details in above post)

I'm not sure how much more context I can look at..

None of Chicago's stars put up massive numbers. They balance their scoring out, kind of like the Wings during their heyday in the laste 90's and early 00's. I guess Kane could have been on track to win the Art Ross this season if not for injuries, but we never got to find out.

Tayes, just like Zetterberg, can affect a game without scoring a lot. The biggest difference is, I think we need more from Zetterberg offensively. Chicago has more big names they can rely on. When Tayes doesn't score, someone else for them steps up. When Zetterberg doesn't score, we get eliminated from the playoffs.

In any case, my post was simply in response to Tayes not scoring 70 points. I think it's harder to hit 70 points nowadays than it was 5 years ago when Zetterberg last did it.

At his peak zetterberg was the superior player. Neutered Crosby twice in the scf - was a PPG player in Reg and post season on a roster with 3 all time greats and a boat load of filler. Could be a goalscorer on the wing or a playmaker at centre. Could be the shut down guy or the top goal scorer. For 4 years was probably the too 2 way forward in the league or shared the accolade with dats. Serious big game warrior.

Now, gotta be the Chicago boy. Hank will probably play more on the wing and has lost a step of mobility and has ongoing back issues. Also his shooting % has fallen off a cliff over the last 3 years. But in a one on one game 7 it'd probably still be tight.

That was a team effort. Zetterberg had Datsyuk on his wing and Lidstrom on the blue line. The team shut Crosby down, Zetterberg being a large part of it. But it wasn't a one man job, like people on LGW always make it sound.

Besides, Zetterberg was at his peak back then, and Crosby was still young and a few years removed from what would have been his peak (if not for the concussion issue).

Edited August 3, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kickazz 5,459]

None of Chicago's stars put up massive numbers. They balance their scoring out, kind of like the Wings during their heyday in the laste 90's and early 00's. I guess Kane could have been on track to win the Art Ross this season if not for injuries, but we never got to find out.

Tayes, just like Zetterberg, can affect a game without scoring a lot. The biggest difference is, I think we need more from Zetterberg offensively. Chicago has more big names they can rely on. When Tayes doesn't score, someone else for them steps up. When Zetterberg doesn't score, we get eliminated from the playoffs.

In any case, my post was simply in response to Tayes not scoring 70 points. I think it's harder to hit 70 points nowadays than it was 5 years ago when Zetterberg last did it.

That was a team effort. Zetterberg had Datsyuk on his wing and Lidstrom on the blue line. The team shut Crosby down, Zetterberg being a large part of it. But it wasn't a one man job, like people on LGW always make it sound.

Besides, Zetterberg was at his peak back then, and Crosby was still young and a few years removed from what would have been his peak (if not for the concussion issue).

Decent points. Good read.

But here is what I'll say.

Z hit 69 points in 2012 - lets count that as 70 since its so close so that was 3 years ago. If Z didn't go down with injury last year I strongly believe he would have hit 70 points and for 77 games he played this season 66 points is pretty damn close to 70 again. My point is, if he had played 81 games like Toews did this year he would have MAYBE 69 or 70 points. But he didnt so we don't know.

I will say this. If Hank Zetterberg matches Toews in points this upcoming year or does better. I conclude that I am not convinced of Toews being the better player. At least as far as the prime vs prime argument is concerned or to some extent present vs present is concerned.

The reason I say this is because the Wings have more depth now and Chicago has lost some depth. This would mean that Z's scoring should be balanced out by other players (and his numbers effectively go down) and Toews numbers should go up because of the lessened depth to spread the scoring out.

^That may not be too convincing but it's just a theory.

I just find it silly that a 27 year old who is considered top 3 in the league can't match a 34 year old slow Zetterberg in terms of points. And call me crazy but if this wasn't a Toews vs. Zetterberg debate, a lot of you might also agree with me.

Edited August 3, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

That was a team effort. Zetterberg had Datsyuk on his wing and Lidstrom on the blue line. The team shut Crosby down, Zetterberg being a large part of it. But it wasn't a one man job, like people on LGW always make it sound.

Besides, Zetterberg was at his peak back then, and Crosby was still young and a few years removed from what would have been his peak (if not for the concussion issue).

True the Crosby shutdown was a team effort and Z was the biggest part of it.

But there were also times when Z played keep away on penalty kill against like 5 players on ice. Crosby or not.

Edited August 3, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Well I did some digging to see just how the points are distributed amongst both teams.

Blackhawks

3 players with 60+ points

1 player with 50-59 points

2 players with 40-49 points

3 players with 30-39 points

2 players with 20-29 points

5 players with 10-19 points

Red Wings

2 players with 60+ points

2 players with 50-59 points

2 players with 40-49 points

3 players with 30-39 points

2 players with 20-29 points

8 players with 10-19 points

Looks like the Red Wings actually distribute scoring better than the Blackhawks do. So that theory is out the window.

[wings87 1,290]

There seems to be an over reliance on points in this thread, and while points are a good indication of a players success they don't tell the whole story. Say Franzen scores 30 goals but has stretches where he disappears for 15 games at a time. Is he as good as a player that scores 30 goals, but is constantly in the game contributing? I will say this that I initially thought Towes and Z where more similar in their prime, but it does look like Z was a superior player. Though after all the injuries, points not withstanding, at present Toews is a better all around player.

[kickazz 5,459]

There seems to be an over reliance on points in this thread, and while points are a good indication of a players success they don't tell the whole story. Say Franzen scores 30 goals but has stretches where he disappears for 15 games at a time. Is he as good as a player that scores 30 goals, but is constantly in the game contributing? I will say this that I initially thought Towes and Z where more similar in their prime, but it does look like Z was a superior player. Though after all the injuries, points not withstanding, at present Toews is a better all around player.

Fair enough. Like I said, even if we put points aside they did go head to head in 2013 and Z shut him down really well. So that's another way of comparing.

Other ways could be looking at their performances against other top league players. I.E Crosby, Tavares, Getzlaf, Malkin, Bergeon, Girioux etc. But I won't get into that unless needed.

[kickazz 5,459]

For those into advance metrics I found this pretty interesting :

http://thehockeywriters.com/henrik-the-great-does-zetterberg-belong-in-the-hall-of-fame/

When Zetterberg is on the ice, he starts more of his shifts outside of the offensive zone, plays with higher quality teammates, plays against a higher quality of competition, and the team generates the 2nd highest percentage of shot attempts at the opposing net. That is extremely impressive, especially when you consider the fact that the best players of his generation are on this graph.

Basically Z was being compared to Datsyuk, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and Sedins. Here's the link for the graph:

http://i2.wp.com/thehockeywriters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Screen-Shot-2014-10-25-at-12.45.24-PM.png

This is pre 2015 season ofcourse. Which wasn't very good for Z

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Well I did some digging to see just how the points are distributed amongst both teams.

Blackhawks

3 players with 60+ points

1 player with 50-59 points

2 players with 40-49 points

3 players with 30-39 points

2 players with 20-29 points

5 players with 10-19 points

Red Wings

2 players with 60+ points

2 players with 50-59 points

2 players with 40-49 points

3 players with 30-39 points

2 players with 20-29 points

8 players with 10-19 points

Looks like the Red Wings actually distribute scoring better than the Blackhawks do. So that theory is out the window.

Wasn't really a theory. The Hawks have more star players than us. They don't need Tayes to score a lot. We may get balanced scoring in the regular season, but in the playoffs, we have trouble getting any scoring, period. The Hawks don't have this problem.

BTW, most people forget Zetterberg had no offense in the Chicago series in 2013. Our top line expended all its energy shutting down Tayes' line. They cancelled each other out. One could say that Tayes shut down Zetterberg as well. No one around here ever mentions that.

None of this equates to how Toews is better in prime.

People say they're similar players. Okay I'll agree with that. If they're similar then how come Z reached a higher potential than Toews? Okay I guess he had Lidstrom and Hull and Datsyuk and blah blah blah. (That's a weak argument imo seeing as though Toews had Hossa, Keith, Kane, Crawford). But okay I'll go with it for now.

Then I ask this question. How come Z is STILL producing at the SAME level as Toews who is well into his prime while Z is well PAST his prime?

Hmm...

I guess that answer must then be that Zetterberg has a higher potential than Toews.

If what we see today from Toews is his best- and if Z is easily matching it. Then I'm disappointed... I'd expect the number 3 player in the world to be able to outscore a 34 year old!

All these talk is just numbers anyway. We haven't even talked about a head to head matchup. If that was another way to compare then we know who won that right?

There has not been one solid argument as to why Toews > Zetterberg.

The numbers prove otherwise, the head to head matchup in 2013 playoffs prove otherwise.

Really? How many goals did Zetterberg score in that series? As I say above, both players shut each other down. We needed our 3rd and 4th liners to carry us offensively in that series.

Edited August 3, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kickazz 5,459]

Wasn't really a theory. The Hawks have more star players than us. They don't need Tayes to score a lot. We may get balanced scoring in the regular season, but in the playoffs, we have trouble getting any scoring, period. The Hawks don't have this problem.

BTW, most people forget Zetterberg had no offense in the Chicago series in 2013. Our top line expended all its energy shutting down Tayes' line. They cancelled each other out. One could say that Tayes shut down Zetterberg as well. No one around here ever mentions that.

Really? How many goals did Zetterberg score in that series? As I say above, both players shut each other down. We needed our 3rd and 4th liners to carry us offensively in that series.

Each had 4 points but Toews was a -3. Toews had 21 shots on goal while Z had 25 shots on goal. Toews took 4 penalties while Z took 2. Toews was 50.25 on faceoffs while Z was 50%. Keep in mind that Toews is a 55-60% faceoff guy while Z is a 48-52% faceoff guy.

Doesn't seem like a situation where both shut each other down to me. The edge is clearly to Z. Not to mention Toews lost his cool on live tv.

One could say that Tayes shut down Zetterberg as well. No one around here ever mentions that.

Neither does NBC

Edited August 3, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

=The Hawks have more star players than us. They don't need Tayes to score a lot.

Just sounds like an excuse to me. Players will score if they have the ability to. Goals or assists. Both Z and Toews play a lot of minutes on ice. Are we assuming Toews is just floating around saying "hey guys I don't need to score I'll just take my 20 min per game average and let you guys score since you can"

Sounds like you're saying Toews doesn't play upto his full potential. Now that isn't very captain like.

[lomekian 201]

None of Chicago's stars put up massive numbers. They balance their scoring out, kind of like the Wings during their heyday in the laste 90's and early 00's. I guess Kane could have been on track to win the Art Ross this season if not for injuries, but we never got to find out.

Tayes, just like Zetterberg, can affect a game without scoring a lot. The biggest difference is, I think we need more from Zetterberg offensively. Chicago has more big names they can rely on. When Tayes doesn't score, someone else for them steps up. When Zetterberg doesn't score, we get eliminated from the playoffs.

In any case, my post was simply in response to Tayes not scoring 70 points. I think it's harder to hit 70 points nowadays than it was 5 years ago when Zetterberg last did it.

That was a team effort. Zetterberg had Datsyuk on his wing and Lidstrom on the blue line. The team shut Crosby down, Zetterberg being a large part of it. But it wasn't a one man job, like people on LGW always make it sound.

Besides, Zetterberg was at his peak back then, and Crosby was still young and a few years removed from what would have been his peak (if not for the concussion issue).

Lost a post refuting this do to summarise...

Zetterberg was specifically lined up on Crosby. Crosby was at 1.5ppg in the region seasons AND playoffs and considered the best player in the NHL at forward. Hank out scored him significantly in both series.

When not playing with Dats, quite common in those days, hank had bloody awful line mates. And even with Dats, homer for all we loved him was not a world class limemate.

Hank was flexible enough to be a defensive centre, a goslscoring winger, a playmaker and a defence first or offence first guy depending on the situation. Apart from the final third of this season he has elevated the play of every line mate he's had, from hull to homer and from franzen to nyquist and Abby. Even dats best times have come when the twins are together. Zetterberg is smart enough to find chemistry with Almost every line mate given, not something that stamkos, dats, Malkin, toews or pretty much anyon not called Crosby can say at the mo.

Were his back functional and his legs not slowing he'd still be toews equal even though his shot has dropped off.

That's not to say the Chicago kid isn't special, but it's easy to forget excellence when one sees it 3 times s week for over a decade

[lomekian 201]

Also using the mutual shut down (edge to hank on an inferior team) in 2013 to compare peaks is not that great, as its 3-4 years after his peak, struggling with back problems and often stuck with at least one offensive vacuum.

They are very similar players, and right now Toews is the better, but at his best hank could just do more