Who is the better player Zetterberg or Toews. Prime vs. Present

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Just sounds like an excuse to me. Players will score if they have the ability to. Goals or assists. Both Z and Toews play a lot of minutes on ice. Are we assuming Toews is just floating around saying "hey guys I don't need to score I'll just take my 20 min per game average and let you guys score since you can"

Sounds like you're saying Toews doesn't play upto his full potential. Now that isn't very captain like.

Tayes has scored 102 points in 117 playoff games. I'd say that's pretty good in today's game. Sure, he's had some series where he doesn't score a lot, but Chicago gets enough balanced scoring in the postseason, where they haven't needed him to score all the time. To contrast, the Wings just don't score enough goals in the playoffs. When the top line disappeared in the Chicago series in 2013, we were sunk. We always need Zetterberg and Datsyuk to score a lot. The other players still haven't proven themselves in the playoffs.

That's why I said we rely on Zetterberg more than Chicago does on Tayes. They still had Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook and others. We're still waiting to get playoff production from our other guys in the postseason.

[kipwinger 8,524]

If two Olympic Gold medals and being fortunate enough to have a superstar laden team is good enough to make Mike Babcock the "best coach in the NHL", why isn't it enough to make Jonathan Toews the best player?

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Just sounds like an excuse to me. Players will score if they have the ability to. Goals or assists. Both Z and Toews play a lot of minutes on ice. Are we assuming Toews is just floating around saying "hey guys I don't need to score I'll just take my 20 min per game average and let you guys score since you can"

Sounds like you're saying Toews doesn't play upto his full potential. Now that isn't very captain like.

That's because Toews isn't that good offensively. He is well below PPG in his career playoffs, and season. Others will argue it's because "He isn't being asked to score" in which I call bs, he just doesn't have elite offensive skill and his defense is pretty overrated. He is not a top 10 player in the NHL right now either.

Datsyuk shows why he was way better then Toews will be in that regard, he was able to play elite offense and defense.

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

That's because Toews isn't that good offensively. He is well below PPG in his career playoffs, and season. Others will argue it's because "He isn't being asked to score" in which I call bs, he just doesn't have elite offensive skill.

Datsyuk shows why he was way better then Toews will be in that regard, he was able to play elite offense and defense.

Well below PPG? Zetterberg has scored 119 points in 132 playoff games. Tayes has scored 102 points in 117 playoff games. That looks like a similar playoff PPG to me. In the regular season, Tayes has a higher PPG average.

In today's game, being a PPG player isn't as easy as it was in the 90's. In fact, how many players that entered the league when Tayes did, have averaged a point per game throughout their careers?

I can't think of any.

Edited August 3, 2015 by GMRwings1983

[kipwinger 8,524]

It seems like you're trying to show that Zetterberg is better by arguing that Toews isn't that good. Which is a pretty weak argument. Toews' accomplishments speak for themselves. Why not just acknowledge that Toews is a SUPER good hockey player. But that Zetterberg was even better for a few years there? Not sure why you're trying to tear one down to build the other up?

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Way below average? Zetterberg has scored 119 points in 132 playoff games. Tayes has scored 102 points in 117 playoff games. That looks like a similar playoff PPG to me. In the regular season, Toews has a higher PPG average.

In today's game, being a PPG player isn't as easy as it was in the 90's. In fact, how many players that entered the league when Tayes did, have averaged a point per game throughout their careers?

I can't think of any.

Playoffs:

Toews is .086PPG, Zetterberg .090PPG

Regular Season:

Toews is .090PPG, Zettberg .094PPG

Playing more games and averaging a higher PPG is harder to do. Toews PPG will continue to drop since he can't even hit PPG in a season to maintain it.

Some Names PPG since 2006-2007:

Crosby

Ovi

Malkin

Stamkos

Backstrom

Giroux (not sure)

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

It seems like you're trying to show that Zetterberg is better by arguing that Toews isn't that good. Which is a pretty weak argument. Toews' accomplishments speak for themselves. Why not just acknowledge that Toews is a SUPER good hockey player. But that Zetterberg was even better for a few years there? Not sure why you're trying to tear one down to build the other up?

Who cares about Zetterberg in the argument then, leave him out.

My argument is that Toews isn't that good, precisely. He is not a top 10 player in the NHL, and is highly overrated. Ex: Datsyuk at 37 is still better then Toews at 28 and would be overall rated higher then Toews.

You have people on this forum saying they take Toews over Ovi ffs.. that says it all.

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[kipwinger 8,524]

Edit: Just to clarify, here's my position on this topic. Zetterberg circa 2008, played at a higher level than Toews ever has. So he's probably the better player overall. But not because Toews is overrated, but because Zetterberg was THAT good.

Using points per game averages to decide the better player is dubious, and seems like cherry picking to me. Jason Spezza has better ppg numbers than Zetterberg. Is he better? Is he top ten? Truly elite? Probably not.

If the only thing that you can use to criticize Toews' game is ppg, your argument doesn't hold water. All it really says it that Zetterberg is the better scorer, which is objectively true. Here's a list of all Toews' accomplishments. Seems pretty elite to me.

• All-WCHA Second Team 2006–07
• AHCA West First-Team All-American 2006–07
• WCHA All-Tournament Team 2007 ^[48]
• World U-17 Hockey Challenge MVP — 2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge — 2005
• WCHA Rookie of the Week — twice in 2005–2006
• NCAA West Regional MVP — 2006
• World Junior All-Star Team — 2007
• Nominated for the Calder Memorial Trophy — 2008
• 4× NHL All-Star (2009, 2011, 2012,* 2015)
• All-Star selection of the 2010 Olympic Hockey Tournament^[33]
• 2010 Winter Olympics — Gold Medalist, Best Forward^[33]
• 2010 Stanley Cup Champion
• 2010 Conn Smythe Trophy winner
• Second-youngest to win the Conn Smythe Trophy (22 years, 41 days; only Patrick Roy was younger); youngest captain to win the Conn Smythe Trophy.
• Youngest person to gain entry into the Triple Gold Club (22 years, 41 days at time last component was achieved)
• Named full captain of an NHL team after only 64 NHL games; fourth youngest full captain (Gabriel Landeskog, Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier being the others) in NHL history and quickest by games

• One of only six players to win Olympic gold and the Stanley Cup in the same year.
• 2013 Frank J. Selke Trophy winner
• 2013 NHL Second All-Star Team
• 2013 Stanley Cup Champion
• 2014 Winter Olympics — Gold Medalist
• 2015 Stanley Cup Champion
• 2015 Mark Messier Leadership Award winner
• 2015 ESPY Best NHL Player

Edited August 3, 2015 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Playoffs:

Toews is .086PPG, Zetterberg .090PPG

Regular Season:

Toews is .090PPG, Zettberg .094PPG

Playing more games and averaging a higher PPG is harder to do. Toews PPG will continue to drop since he can't even hit PPG in a season to maintain it.

Some Names PPG since 2006-2007:

Crosby

Ovi

Malkin

Stamkos

Backstrom

Giroux (not sure)

Very few players. That was my point. And most of those guys were drafted before Tayes. In the 90's and 80's, this list would have a lot more names on it. So according to the PPG theory, there's only 5 top players in the entire league (Backstrom being one).

The problem with your theory is, most people in the NHL would rank him in the top 10. The man has scored some big goals in his career in big moments. He's been consistent. He's won many awards.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Very few players. That was my point. And most of those guys were drafted before Tayes. In the 90's and 80's, this list would have a lot more names on it. So according to the PPG theory, there's only 5 top players in the entire league (Backstrom being one).

The problem with your theory is, most people in the NHL would rank him in the top 10. The man has scored some big goals in his career in big moments. He's been consistent. He's won many awards.

Ok, but that didn't prove anything. The 5-6 I named are absolute PPG+ players (elite) since Toews has been around but Toews is well below PPG in his career. There is probably over 30+ players ahead of his PPG (.90PPG).

Most people that rank him in the top 10 are drunk. Would love to see some lists people come up with.

Also which awards has he won? Conn Smythe, which some might argue belongs with Kane since Toews went no show against Philly, (Kane also has 2 Stanley Cup winning goals, Toews 0) and 1 Selke.

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Ok, but that didn't prove anything. The 5-6 I named are absolute PPG+ players (elite) since Toews has been around but Toews is well below PPG in his career. There is probably over 30+ players ahead of his PPG (.90PPG).

Most people that rank him in the top 10 are drunk. Would love to see some lists people come up with.

Also which awards has he won? Conn Smythe, which some might argue belongs with Kane since Toews went no show against Philly, (Kane also has 2 Stanley Cup winning goals, Toews 0) and 1 Selke.

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

Just like Keith he always gets into best mode come playoff time. People honestly wouldn't take him over Z right now? Hard to believe also their peak can't be compared because nobody knows if Toews has peaked already or might get even better. If we've seen his best than yeah peak Z was better but if not than Toews could very well become even better.

Toews at 27 has won everything in his young career and could very well end up with half a dozen cups when all is said and done. I don't care about regular season stats if a player disappears when it matters the most, Toews is the opposite. So yeah till Giroux, OV and done other ppg players can do the same I'd take captain serious over everyone not named Crosby or Stamkos and I don't need spreadsheets to know that, his accomplishments, work ethic, leadership qualities and the praise people in the NHL is more than enough.

Z's peak had him playing unreal hockey.

Edited August 3, 2015 by frankgrimes

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If tires Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

Just like Keith he always gets into best mode come playoff time. People honestly wouldn't take him over Z right now? Hard to believe also their peak can't be compared because nobody knows if Toews has peaked already or might get even better.

Toews at 27 has won everything in his young career and could very well end up with half a dozen cups when all is said and done. I don't care about regular season stats if a player disappears when it matters the most, Toews is the opposite. So yeah till Giroux, OV and done other ppg players can do the same I'd take captain serious over everyone not named Crosby or Stamkos and I don't need spreadsheets to know that, his accomplishments, work ethic, leadership qualities and the praise people in the NHL is more than enough.

Z's peak had him playing unreal hockey.

sums up this post. Keep believing that your eyes tell you everything. Your eyes apparently are telling you Toews is better then Ovi....

Toews on Washington doesn't win them a cup, Ovi on Chicago wins them more cups then they won with Toews.

As I said before, you can't argue what you don't understand. Hockey Reference tells me everything I need to know about a player, then you can dig into the advanced stats to know more. Toews is not a top 10 player.

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If tires Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

Just like Keith he always gets into best mode come playoff time. People honestly wouldn't take him over Z right now? Hard to believe also their peak can't be compared because nobody knows if Toews has peaked already or might get even better.

Toews at 27 has won everything in his young career and could very well end up with half a dozen cups when all is said and done. I don't care about regular season stats if a player disappears when it matters the most, Toews is the opposite. So yeah till Giroux, OV and done other ppg players can do the same I'd take captain serious over everyone not named Crosby or Stamkos and I don't need spreadsheets to know that, his accomplishments, work ethic, leadership qualities and the praise people in the NHL is more than enough.

Z's peak had him playing unreal hockey.

Agree with most of what you said, however, Ovechkin does not disappear in the playoffs. He's scored 70 points in 72 playoff games. He just plays for a team that has a terrible playoff history and he hasn't gotten much help there.

sums up this post. Keep believing that your eyes tell you everything.

As I said before, you can't argue what you don't understand. Hockey Reference tells me everything I need to know about a player, then you can dig into the advanced stats to know more. Toews is not a top 10 player.

So who are the 10 you'd rank ahead of him for sure?

I can only think of three or four I'd rank ahead for sure. After that, I can make arguments for and against him over someone else.

[number9 3,297]

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If tires Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

Just like Keith he always gets into best mode come playoff time. People honestly wouldn't take him over Z right now? Hard to believe also their peak can't be compared because nobody knows if Toews has peaked already or might get even better.

Toews at 27 has won everything in his young career and could very well end up with half a dozen cups when all is said and done. I don't care about regular season stats if a player disappears when it matters the most, Toews is the opposite. So yeah till Giroux, OV and done other ppg players can do the same I'd take captain serious over everyone not named Crosby or Stamkos and I don't need spreadsheets to know that, his accomplishments, work ethic, leadership qualities and the praise people in the NHL is more than enough.

Z's peak had him playing unreal hockey.

What a novel idea. As a hockey fan I never thought of actually watching the games. Thanks for the tip Frank.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Agree with most of what you said, however, Ovechkin does not disappear in the playoffs. He's scored 70 points in 72 playoff games. He just plays for a team that has a terrible playoff history and he hasn't gotten much help there.

So who are the 10 you'd rank ahead of him for sure?

I can only think of three or four I'd rank ahead for sure. After that, I can make arguments for and against him over someone else.

No particular order off the top of my head:

Crosby

Malkin

Ovi

Stamkos

Giroux

Tavares

Datsyuk

Backstrom

Getzlaf

Kopitar

HM: Zetterberg, Toews, Seguin, Bergeron

Edited August 3, 2015 by darkmanx

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

No particular order off the top of my head:

Crosby

Malkin

Ovi

Stamkos

Giroux

Tavares

Datsyuk

Backstrom

Getzlaf

Kopitar

HM: Zetterberg, Toews, Seguin, Bergeron

Let me guess, you obviously went by PPG? I would rank Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin ahead of him for sure. After that, I could toss up rankings between the other players. He would be on that list for consideration.

If you have to build a team for one season, you'd really take Backstrom and Kopitar over him? Seguin as well? I find that hard to believe.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Let me guess, you obviously went by PPG? I would rank Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin ahead of him for sure. After that, I could toss up rankings between the other players. He would be on that list for consideration.

If you have to build a team for one season, you'd really take Backstrom and Kopitar over him? Seguin as well? I find that hard to believe.

Yes I would, absolutely take them over him.

It's a blend of offense, which everyone on that list surpasses Toews by alot and defense, which the gap is not that large for him to surpass Seguin or Backstrom, who are no slouches in the defensive department and drive possession. Kopi is around the same offensively, but his defense (See Corsi numbers) and possession numbers make him better. Toews possession numbers aren't close to those three, he struggles to create anything on his own.

Keith is the MVP of Chicago, not Toews.

[kickazz 5,459]

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

I've watched him play about 25 or so games this past year he's a great player but not top 3 on ice. I'm usually more impressed when I watch Tavares and Stamkos play. Last season I enjoyed Backstrom a good amount.

Some of us like maths but others also like watching and playing hockey. Call us well rounded if you must XD

I usually DVR all Wings games if I can't watch live. And Comcast/Xfinity does a decent job of saving prime time games for NHL network. That's how I get to watch Chicago, LA games (where I can watch Kopitar)

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Toews is better now, it's not really close. Zetterberg's body is just too broken down.

Zetterberg was far superior in his prime though.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

I can't help feeling partly responsible for this thread :/

You can't just say "Hank never had the skill Toews has" without giving some good details to this.

Here I'll say it.

Zetterberg (in prime) was better than Toews (in prime) in all aspects of hockey except faceoffs and shootouts. Everything else. Z was better. If someone can prove otherwise I'm all ears....

This is the point of this thread. Lot of people want to say Toews was better. Or Z was better. But not much is said when asked about HOW Toews is better.

"Well TSN said it so it must be true"

^ I'd say they're probably pretty even in faceoffs you know. I swear this year I saw them doing more of a Draper with Z, getting him in for draws and then pulling him.

For those into advance metrics I found this pretty interesting :

http://thehockeywriters.com/henrik-the-great-does-zetterberg-belong-in-the-hall-of-fame/

When Zetterberg is on the ice, he starts more of his shifts outside of the offensive zone, plays with higher quality teammates, plays against a higher quality of competition, and the team generates the 2nd highest percentage of shot attempts at the opposing net. That is extremely impressive, especially when you consider the fact that the best players of his generation are on this graph.

Basically Z was being compared to Datsyuk, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and Sedins. Here's the link for the graph:

http://i2.wp.com/thehockeywriters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Screen-Shot-2014-10-25-at-12.45.24-PM.png

This is pre 2015 season ofcourse. Which wasn't very good for Z

^ Doesn't Z hold the record for the most amount of consecutive 2-shot games? Went on for like 2 seasons? So I can see that.

It seems like you're trying to show that Zetterberg is better by arguing that Toews isn't that good. Which is a pretty weak argument. Toews' accomplishments speak for themselves. Why not just acknowledge that Toews is a SUPER good hockey player. But that Zetterberg was even better for a few years there? Not sure why you're trying to tear one down to build the other up?

^ Yeah my initial point in the Quick-on-snipers thread was that Toews wasn't overrated at all. Doesn't mean that Z wasn't unreal.

For the record, I said Z prime, Toews currently.

[kickazz 5,459]

Okay I can level with people who said Z prime and Toews now.

Still don't buy the Toews prime > Z prime

Edited August 3, 2015 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Question-

So if Z scores 80 points next season and Toews scores 65 and both replicated average time on ice and takeaways what do we conclude with that?

Say in playofffs 2016 they replicate similar numbers.

"Number's don't mean anything, Toews still better?" - Just curious so we have the opinions before the season starts.

I know Toews has the added factor that he still kills penalties and Z rarely does anymore (unless Blashill decides to put him and Dats back on penalty killing for some reason). But aside from that fact.

Edited August 3, 2015 by kickazz

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

Okay I can level with people who said Z prime and Toews now.

Still don't buy the Toews prime > Z prime

This. I think GMR said it best though, are we talking years of top play, or 'peak', as in each player at their very best? Think either way Z takes it.

Question-

So if Z scores 80 points next season and Toews scores 65 and both replicated average time on ice and takeaways what do we conclude with that?

Say in playofffs 2016 they replicate similar numbers.

"Number's don't mean anything, Toews still better?" - Just curious so we have the opinions before the season starts.

I know Toews has the added factor that he still kills penalties and Z rarely does anymore (unless Blashill decides to put him and Dats back on penalty killing for some reason). But aside from that fact.

I reckon it would be concluded that Z is better. He's had injuries, especially with the back, and if it can be seen that he's over that and back to his best then him outscoring Toews would go a long was to help his argument. However I don't think scoring is everything. The PK would give Toews an edge, but having said that Z had 10 more blocked shots last year (26 to 16) and Miller lead the league in forwards - does that mean Drew is in the mix? Of course not. People bring different things and I think that's why it's been so difficult to separate these two.

If they had the points you quoted, with similar ice-time, it still wouldn't be enough to draw much of a reasonable conclusion as, say, 25% of Toews ice time would be on the PK. 75% of Z's 80 points would be 60. So for his ES time Toews would be doing better.

But hey, spreadsheets aren't everything (although I personally love them).

EDIT: I thought I'd also say (and I may be the first person to say it) that Z is without doubt far better value for money. But that's very little to do with either player, just a factor in the case of "which would you pick?" Toews, I feel, would have accepted less than what he was offered, but when they offered Kane his contract, they felt they had to offer Toews the same. He'd be a moron if he said "nah, just give me $8m-per". Our front office has always been a bit clever with the cap.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Wing Across The Pond

[GoWings! 179]

Z in his prime and healthy I think was a better all around player than Toews will ever be. Now it's definitely Toews.

[number9 3,297]

Take a look at Toews beard and then take a look at Zetters beard. Does that answer the question?

Case closed