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kipwinger

Todd Ewen Dies

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This is really sad, but that's how it is in sports where hits to the head are common. Every enforcer from his generation knew what risks they were taking. It's too early to tell why he committed suicide. Maybe his life was in a bad state. But if they study his brain, of course it will look different than an average person's brain. The average person didn't get punched in the head as often as he did.

BTW, for those who may not know, Todd Ewen is the only guy who ever KO'd Bob Probert. He played for many teams and had tons of other fights and big wins, but that's what I'll always remember him for most.

Here's the video.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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This is really sad, but that's how it is in sports where hits to the head are common. Every enforcer from his generation knew what risks they were taking. It's too early to tell why he committed suicide. Maybe his life was in a bad state. But if they study his brain, of course it will look different than an average person's brain. The average person didn't get punched in the head as often as he did.

BTW, for those who may not know, Todd Ewen is the only guy who ever KO'd Bob Probert. He played for many teams and had tons of other fights and big wins, but that's what I'll always remember him for most.

Here's the video.

Did they? I thought much of the research on CTE is fairly recent?

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Did they? I thought much of the research on CTE is fairly recent?

The research is, but it's basic common sense that getting punched in the head for a living isn't good for you. These guys had concussions. They had to have known they didn't feel OK. They must have thrown up many times after games. They couldn't have been oblivious to the dangers of their specialty.

Unfortunately, in those days enforcers didn't want to tell coaches about concussions, because it would make them look weak and not invincible. I remember reading an interview with Ryan Vandenbussche where he stated something similar about being afraid to admit he played with concussions.

The research and the recent player deaths/depression have shed more light on this issue and the long-term effects. However, I refuse to believe guys like Probert and Ewen didn't know that what they were doing was hazardous for their health.

It is. There is no way these jobbers could have ever known what was specifically at stake, because *scientists* didn't even know.

First off, Probert wasn't a jobber. He was a pretty good player. Secondly, read my post above. Are you trying to say these guys thought getting punched in the head every night would have no long-term effects? I doubt it. Maybe they didn't give a crap and were riding the lifestyle, but they had to have known.

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The research is, but it's basic common sense that getting punched in the head for a living isn't good for you. These guys had concussions. They had to have known they didn't feel OK. They must have thrown up many times after games. They couldn't have been oblivious to the dangers of their specialty.

Unfortunately, in those days enforcers didn't want to tell coaches about concussions, because it would make them look weak and not invincible. I remember reading an interview with Ryan Vandenbussche where he stated something similar about being afraid to admit he played with concussions.

The research and the recent player deaths/depression have shed more light on this issue and the long-term effects. However, I refuse to believe guys like Probert and Ewen didn't know that what they were doing was hazardous for their health.

Everybody knows that getting punched hurts, and that it's less healthy than not getting punched.

But I'm not sure everybody knew that getting punched a lot in the 1980s and 1990s would cause depression, substance abuse, anger issues, and ultimately suicide in 2015. Those types of causal linkages just hadn't been made yet.

I think that's where your argument is a bit too simplistic.

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Everybody knows that getting punched hurts, and that it's less healthy than not getting punched.

But I'm not sure everybody knew that getting punched a lot in the 1980s and 1990s would cause depression, substance abuse, anger issues, and ultimately suicide in 2015. Those types of causal linkages just hadn't been made yet.

I think that's where your argument is a bit too simplistic.

Didn't boxers have all those issues, though? Boxing had been around a long time by the 1980's. Everyone knew what "punch drunk" meant.

Yes, the research has shed more light on what the brain of a football player or hockey player looks like. It's shed more light on the long-term effects you listed.

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Didn't boxers have all those issues, though? Boxing had been around a long time by the 1980's. Everyone knew what "punch drunk" meant.

Yes, the research has shed more light on what the brain of a football player or hockey player looks like. It's shed more light on the long-term effects you listed.

But isn't that a little like saying that a soldier understands the long term risks associated with PTSD just because guys in WWI reported being "shell shocked"? There's a difference between a vague notion, and specific knowledge IMO.

Sure people knew that some boxers ended up like Ali, but most boxers seemingly lived "normal' lives. But only because nobody knew about the drinking, depression, suicide, etc., and these things hadn't been linked to the sport yet. It was easy to see that Ali was messed up. A little harder to see what affect it had on others because nobody knew what to look for.

Again, I'm not trying to absolve these guys of their responsibility for their own well being. But I don't think that it's fair to imply they knew the specific risks they were facing just because there was a vague understanding that some guys (like Ali) weren't right after their career.

Edited by kipwinger

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I doubt if you asked Probert in his prime what long term issues he might have as a result of his play he'd have been able to articulate what actually ended up happening.

That's probably true, but Probert was drinking heavily and doing cocaine. I'm sure he knew what that meant long term. Getting punched in the head was just part of the problem. He wasn't the only enforcer doing that stuff either.

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I doubt if you asked Probert in his prime what long term issues he might have as a result of his play he'd have been able to articulate what actually ended up happening.

Exactly. Maybe if you'd asked "do you think getting punched repeatedly is bad for you" he'd have said "yes". But that's a pretty different thing than him "knowing the risks" of CTE.

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Exactly. Maybe if you'd asked "do you think getting punched repeatedly is bad for you" he'd have said "yes". But that's a pretty different thing than him "knowing the risks" of CTE.

Do we know that Probert died from CTE? He had other problems in his health history, as I wrote above.

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That's probably true, but Probert was drinking heavily and doing cocaine. I'm sure he knew what that meant long term. Getting punched in the head was just part of the problem. He wasn't the only enforcer doing that stuff either.

That's the thing though. One of the main symptoms of CTE is drug and alcohol dependency. It's not like he had CTE AND substance abuse issues. They weren't separate. CTE dramatically increases the likelihood of substance abuse issues.

People have got to stop acting like these are different things. When you get punched in the head a lot, you are more likely to suffer from depression, anger issues, anxiety, and substance abuse as a result.

And NOBODY knew that in the 1980s and 1990s.

Do we know that Probert died from CTE? He had other problems in his health history, as I wrote above.

No. We know that he had CTE. And that he suffered from symptoms of depression. And that when people have depression they often self medicate with drugs and alcohol.

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That's the thing though. One of the main symptoms of CTE is drug and alcohol dependency. It's not like he had CTE AND substance abuse issues. They weren't separate. CTE dramatically increases the likelihood of substance abuse issues.

People have got to stop acting like these are different things. When you get punched in the head a lot, you are more likely to suffer from depression, anger issues, anxiety, and substance abuse as a result.

And NOBODY knew that in the 1980s and 1990s.

No. We know that he had CTE. And that he suffered from symptoms of depression. And that when people have depression they often self medicate with drugs and alcohol.

I seem to remember hearing that Probert was a wild child when he first came into the league. It's not like his other issues only developed in the 90's, after long-term head trauma.

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I seem to remember hearing that Probert was a wild child when he first came into the league. It's not like his other issues only developed in the 90's, after long-term head trauma.

And it's not like contributing factors don't exacerbate those problems either.

I'm not really sure why I'm debating this. The link between substance abuse, depression, suicide, etc. and CTE has been proven demonstrably at this point. It wasn't, however, proven back when guys like Probert were punching each other in the head to the delight of fans. They absolutely had no idea the kinds of long term effects that those actions had, because nobody knew.

If you want to think that they all knew what they were getting into, fine. But I don't agree, and I don't think most researchers would either.

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But isn't that a little like saying that a soldier understands the long term risks associated with PTSD just because guys in WWI reported being "shell shocked"? There's a difference between a vague notion, and specific knowledge IMO.

Sure people knew that some boxers ended up like Ali, but most boxers seemingly lived "normal' lives. But only because nobody knew about the drinking, depression, suicide, etc., and these things hadn't been linked to the sport yet. It was easy to see that Ali was messed up. A little harder to see what affect it had on others because nobody knew what to look for.

Again, I'm not trying to absolve these guys of their responsibility for their own well being. But I don't think that it's fair to imply they knew the specific risks they were facing just because there was a vague understanding that some guys (like Ali) weren't right after their career.

Are you implying that Ali's Parkinson's is a result of his boxing career and related head trauma?

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Are you implying that Ali's Parkinson's is a result of his boxing career and related head trauma?

Yes. As early as 1987: http://articles.latimes.com/1987-07-16/sports/sp-4337_1_muhammad-ali

General links:

http://www.nature.com/nrneurol/journal/v11/n4/full/nrneurol.2015.39.html

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/traumatic-brain-injury-a-threat-213647

Now, there is still some disagreement in the field, but enough research to indicate that it wouldn't be unheard of for a correlation to exist. Is his Parkinson's definitively the result of head trauma? We may never know. Is there solid, research-backed speculation that the conditions may be related? Yes.

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You are correct that we may never know that Parkinson's is the result of head trauma... and the speculation exists that the conditions may be related.

My grandfather had Parkinson's and he was a farmer and a postal worker. My friend's father has it and he managed a book store. No head trauma occurred in either of those cases. I don't know of any significant head trauma that Michal J. Fox had - I don't recall any mention of it in his autobiography.

It is possible that head trauma 'increases the risk' of Parkinson's. But, I don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence to say that head trauma causes Parkinson's. I would speculate that the doctor in 1987 overstepped his/her bounds in saying that Ali's Parkinson's was "due to boxing." Perhaps the doctor did not want to say to the nation that he/she didn't know why one of its most famous/beloved athletes got the disease... and instead went with the convenient explanation that he/she thought probably had some merit.

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Correlation certainly does not equal causation, nor does it imply responsibility for all cases of Parkinson's. Even considering causation as an option, stating that head trauma caused Parkinson's in specific cases does not imply that head trauma is the *only* cause or risk factor for Parkinson's. It is a neurodegenerative disorder that probably can be brought on by a number of causes and affected by numerous risk factors. One of which seems to be head trauma. Which, to me, seems perfectly plausible that neurological trauma could potentially lead to a neurodegenerative disease down the line.

Science is awesome.

*thumbs up*

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Correlation certainly does not equal causation, nor does it imply responsibility for all cases of Parkinson's. Even considering causation as an option, stating that head trauma caused Parkinson's in specific cases does not imply that head trauma is the *only* cause or risk factor for Parkinson's. It is a neurodegenerative disorder that probably can be brought on by a number of causes and affected by numerous risk factors. One of which seems to be head trauma. Which, to me, seems perfectly plausible that neurological trauma could potentially lead to a neurodegenerative disease down the line.

Science is awesome.

*thumbs up*

Are you saying that there could be more than one factor which causes a particular disease?

That's just crazy. Everybody knows that degenerative diseases like cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, or CTE have one cause, and one cause only.

Which is why they're so easy to prevent. Oh wait...

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I'm not sure whether or not this is directed at me, but it reads as a possible passive-aggressive/sarcastic shot fired in my direction.

If that is the case, I don't know why my posts have cause aggravation for you, but I apologize for any bother the additional sidebar on Parkinson's caused for you.

And, I was not trying to suggest that diseases can only have one cause... or that Parkinson's or any of the other conditions you just brought up are easily prevented.

Edited by barabbas16

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I'm not sure whether or not this is directed at me, but it reads as a possible passive-aggressive/sarcastic shot fired in my direction.

If that is the case, I don't know why my posts have cause aggravation for you, but I apologize for any bother the additional sidebar on Parkinson's caused for you.

And, I was not trying to suggest that diseases can only have one cause... or that Parkinson's or any of the other conditions you just brought up are easily prevented.

It wasn't. But after rereading it I understand why it looks that way. I was just generally being snarky about many folks preference for overly simplistic answers on this particular topic. Again, not directed at you at all.

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I'm gonnna echo the correlation does not imply causation sentiment. Even saying things are linked can be pretty vague and doesn't imply a causation (hell, it may not even imply correlation).

I'm mean if being an enforcer is linked with substance abuse, I don't really know if there's a way to tell if the role of enforcer brings about the substance abuse or if some who is already prone to substance abuse is drawn to the role of enforcer. (or replace enforcer with any other violent sport)

Edit: Though I will add, with all the new science of the brain that's coming and continues to come out, it be stupid not to take all that into consideration.

Edited by roboturner

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I'm gonnna echo the correlation does not imply causation sentiment. Even saying things are linked can be pretty vague and doesn't imply a causation (hell, it may not even imply correlation).

I'm mean if being an enforcer is linked with substance abuse, I don't really know if there's a way to tell if the role of enforcer brings about the substance abuse or if some who is already prone to substance abuse is drawn to the role of enforcer. (or replace enforcer with any other violent sport)

You're missing the point. Being an enforcer increases your chances of damaging your brain. And this type of brain damage has been conclusively linked to substance abuse issues.

Being punched doesn't make you drink too much. Being punched a lot damages your brain, which causes headaches, anxiety, depression, poor impulse control, etc. And lots of people drink more when you have those kinds of issues (i.e. self medicate).

This isn't some crap shoot where people are trying to villify hockey fights. Real doctors and researchers, who really study diseases, have conclusively proven a link between getting your head banged around, and a whole host of physical and mental health issues. It's real.

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