9/26 Exhibition GDT : Boston Bruins at Red Wings, 7:00 EST

[kipwinger 8,522]

Are we talking about the same Brad Richards who had all the primary assists in Tatar's hat trick? Not sure why you're insinuating he is some washed up scrub.

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

He can provide offense but what is he going to do defensively? I'm just thinking of match ups we are going to have to deal with I don't think he's a washed up scrub but how will he matchup against a Malkin, Johnson Monahan? I'm just saying idk how that will hold up

I watched that game and he looked great but he didn't really have to play against anyone, also Tatar has been great so far

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/09/red_wings_lineup_vs_boston_dyl.html

[T.Low 1,011]

Fwiw,The Chicago GDT had numerous posts regarding richards improved speed and conditioning since he's been working out with a new guy.

[kipwinger 8,522]

To be honest I don't really care about his defense. I care about his ability to contribute to possession. Which he can demonstrably do. He's playing the exact same role for us that he did a year ago for the Stanley Cup winner. So I don't think there's any denying you can win with Brad Richards as a 2C.

I think the days of sacrificing offense for defense are coming to an end in Detroit. Sure being a 200 foot player is important, but not to the extreme that the Babcock Wings took it. Look at Chicago and LA. There are quite a lot of guys on both those teams that are only ok defensively, but contribute a lot offensively (Kane, Sharp, Richards, Carter, Gaborik). All things being equal I'd usually rather have a guy who can maintain possession in the offensive zone, than a guy who can't do anything with the puck but can backcheck like a bulldog. At the end of the day you still have to score points.

[kickazz 5,459]

Kane is ok defensively?

How about below average. Lol

[kipwinger 8,522]

Kane is ok defensively?

I think so. I think he's as good as Tatar or Nyquist. Which is to say that he's no superstar but he doesn't completely ignore that part of the game either.

But the fact that he's such a good possession player IS his defense. What does it matter if he can backcheck if he's got the puck in the o-zone for the majority of his shifts?

[kickazz 5,459]

Our only two good defensive top 6 forwards are Zetterberg and Datsyuk btw.

Its not like we're stacked with them.

And i thought richards was 3C for chicago not 2C?

[kipwinger 8,522]

Vermette was their 3C.

[kickazz 5,459]

I guess we can pick and chose what defense means. So Abby would count too.

Personally I'd put Tatar before Kane for defense. He skates hard on the backcheck. Kane is more of a puck possesor

But I'm with mrazekfanboy on his overall point. That being said if Tatar and Richards can work together to maintain offense and defense then why not.

It's just easier when you have a Datsyuk or Z who can handle almost 100% of defense responsiblity. If Tatar and Richards can work together to sum up a defense then i guess why not. They've already shown that they immediately had offensive chemistry.

Edited September 28, 2015 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,522]

I guess we can pick and chose what defense means. So Abby would count too.

Personally I'd put Tatar before Kane for defense. He skates hard on the backcheck. Kane is more of a puck possesor

But I'm with mrazekfanboy on his overall point. That being said if Tatar and Richards can work together to maintain offense and defense then why not.

It's just easier when you have a Datsyuk or Z who can handle almost 100% of defense responsiblity. If Tatar and Richards can work together to sum up a defense then i guess why not. They've already shown that they immediately had offensive chemistry.

Tatar is a better possession player than Kane. Demonstrably. He was one of the very best possession players in the league.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?navid=nav-sts-indiv#

Edited September 28, 2015 by kipwinger

[kickazz 5,459]

Tatar is a better possession player than Kane. Demonstrably. He was one of the very best possession players in the league.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?navid=nav-sts-indiv#

Nice.

I also think Tatar can continue to increase his 200 foot game since he has the potential for it. If he can do this then I don't see why Richards and him can't work together. Seems like he's learning well from our top two guys.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Maybe, but I don't care if he does or doesn't. I think it's WAY more important for the team's success that Tatar be a 30+ goal scorer than a 25 goal scorer with defense.

The entire Mike Babcock mentality, that a guy's only valuable if he's defensively responsible, has got to change in Detroit. In some instances it's true, and in others it makes no sense. For instance, last year Kindl couldn't buy a spot in the lineup because he didn't play good defense. However Smith, who is significantly worse than Kindl offensively and only marginally better defensively, played all season. What makes it bad, however, isn't Smith. I don't care about him. It's the usage. Both guys led the defense in offensive zone starts. So their respective differences in defensive ability didn't really matter because neither of them were ever going to play a defensive role. But by removing Kindl from the lineup you effectively ensured that you weren't going to get any production from the back end, even though that was the role Smith way playing. You replaced a guy who can produce offense with a guy who's better defensively, and then never used the defensive guy in a defensive role.

Dynamic offensive players don't grow on trees. I'd be pissed if we stunted Tatar's upward potential by asking him to take on more defensive responsibility. We don't need that from him. Not when he's only 1 of 2 guys on the team that can score 30+.

Edited September 28, 2015 by kipwinger

[Buppy 1,720]

Maybe, but I don't care if he does or doesn't. I think it's WAY more important for the team's success that Tatar be a 30+ goal scorer than a 25 goal scorer with defense.

The entire Mike Babcock mentality, that a guy's only valuable if he's defensively responsible, has got to change in Detroit. In some instances it's true, and in others it makes no sense. For instance, last year Kindl couldn't buy a spot in the lineup because he didn't play good defense. However Smith, who is significantly worse than Kindl offensively and only marginally better defensively, played all season. What makes it bad, however, isn't Smith. I don't care about him. It's the usage. Both guys led the defense in offensive zone starts. So their respective differences in defensive ability didn't really matter because neither of them were ever going to play a defensive role. But by removing Kindl from the lineup you effectively ensured that you weren't going to get any production from the back end, even though that was the role Smith way playing. You replaced a guy who can produce offense with a guy who's better defensively, and then never used the defensive guy in a defensive role.

Dynamic offensive players don't grow on trees. I'd be pissed if we stunted Tatar's upward potential by asking him to take on more defensive responsibility. We don't need that from him. Not when he's only 1 of 2 guys on the team that can score 30+.

Kindl is not better than Smith offensively, much less "significantly" so.

First off, Kindl was injured for pretty much all of January last year. Prior to the injury, Kindl had played 28 games to 31 for Smith. Each had 2 goals, and Kindl had 7 assists to Smith's 5. Including the two previous seasons (playoffs included), Kindl's stats were 153 games, 9g, 37a .vs Smith with 155 games, 9g, 30a. Career numbers at the time were Kindl 259 games, 12g, 51a and Smith 169 games, 10g, 36a. Fairly similar p/g numbers, even with Kindl getting 3 times as much time on the PP. Looking at just 5v5 numbers, Smith's were better in every way, including possession metrics.

Kindl had the good luck to have a couple good games among the handful he played after his injury last year, but he has not shown himself to be good offensive player, or even any better than Smith. Which is saying a lot considering Smith sucks.

And there is no "Babcock mentality". Babcock had the luxury of having most of our best offensive players also be good defensively, but there were still plenty that were average or worse who played prominent roles: Hudler, Homer, Bert, Sammy, Brunner, and Nyquist/Tatar recently. Rafi and White were hardly defensive stalwarts for that matter, even Kronwall is much better on the offensive side than defensively.

Regardless, even the best possession players are lucky to hit 60% CF%, which still means a lot of time spent defending. The better you are at it, the quicker you'll get the puck back and get back on offense, not to mention giving up fewer goals against. Being good defensively doesn't make you worse offensively. Cheating too much one way or the other (I.e. Being too conservative and too quick to move back when on offense, or lurking out high on defense.) can make a difference, and maybe that's what you're getting at, but I don't think that's what Kickazz meant by "increase his 200 ft. game".

[joesuffP 1,746]

Just tuned it. Beautiful save by Hoard!