Roster Moves by the Wings

[Buppy 1,720]

When I wrote my first post yesterday, ESPN hadn't updated their stats from the weekend games, so our GAA wasn't 2.6. It was lower, and were were ranked 9th in the league. Which wasn't bad. That's what I was predicating my argument on. When they updated based on the Montreal game we dropped to the 2.6 GAA you're seeing now. But you'll recall that Montreal scored two powerplay goals, and one empty netter. So it's not like that drop in GAA was the result of "bad defense" in the sense that our defense keeps being accused of (i.e. turning the puck over, blowing zone coverage, failing to clear the crease, etc.).

I know. I was only ever talking about the five games we played. As I said in both threads, I'm not projecting how the defense will play all season. I'm just saying that haven't been bad through 5 games. Which makes people lose their minds apparently. In the five games we've played, our defense has been the least of our worries.

I said our defense looked fine the first give games, and the entire forum acted as if I'd given them a free pass for the remainder of the season.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not talking about projecting anything either. My point is that over a small number of games, goals for/against, because they are infrequent events, are not necessarily indicative of play.

You've called out our poor PK and disproportionate GA ratio. But if you change of PPGA by one, just one single goal, then our PK% rises to a very good 85%, and the ratio drops to an only-slightly-below-average 25%. One single play, such as a baseball slide through our goalie that probably shouldn't have counted, should never be the difference between good and bad.

You mentioned our offense as being bad, yet judged on the same "goals and nothing else" criteria our offense is much better than our defense. Prior to last weekend you were even commenting on how good the offense seemed. We have one game where we score one goal and suddenly the offense sucks?

You have to look at more than just goals to judge how we've played. When you do, it's plain that we've been bad at almost everything. We've just been lucky in terms of goals.

[Shinzaki 72]

Based solely on my own worthless observations...we are sloooooooow coming out of our zone. The opposition has the ability to set up and clog the neutral zone and make it darn near impossible for us to carry the puck into their end. If we were quicker in transition, we might catch them out of position more often and this would lead to some odd man rushes.

That and Smith sucks....

[kipwinger 8,492]

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not talking about projecting anything either. My point is that over a small number of games, goals for/against, because they are infrequent events, are not necessarily indicative of play.

You've called out our poor PK and disproportionate GA ratio. But if you change of PPGA by one, just one single goal, then our PK% rises to a very good 85%, and the ratio drops to an only-slightly-below-average 25%. One single play, such as a baseball slide through our goalie that probably shouldn't have counted, should never be the difference between good and bad.

You mentioned our offense as being bad, yet judged on the same "goals and nothing else" criteria our offense is much better than our defense. Prior to last weekend you were even commenting on how good the offense seemed. We have one game where we score one goal and suddenly the offense sucks?

You have to look at more than just goals to judge how we've played. When you do, it's plain that we've been bad at almost everything. We've just been lucky in terms of goals.

And you were there to explain how the offense wasn't good, after even fewer games. We are all here to talk about the team, and throwing our hands up and citing small sample size is true of every single objective measure we would use to judge the performance of this team. At least up to this point. But I don't think we all want to wait for 20 games before posting again.

I get your point. Its a small sample, but what else should we use to judge the defense? Turnovers? We are middle of the league in those. Scoring chances against? Middle of the league in those. Goals against? Middle of the league in those. In fact the only thing that's downright terrible is our shots against.

And given that such a small sample size can dramatically skew stats, couldn't we actually be quite a lot better than even I'm suggesting?

Nothing other than shots against suggests our defense is terrible. Mediocre? Sure. And that's what I was refuting...over 5 games. But the narrative seems to be "our defense sucks" regardless of how they play. Likely because its fun to point fingers at Ericsson, Quincey, Kind, and Smith.

[Franzine 739]

I hope they waive Jurco so we can finally stop seeing hypothetical lineups posted on LGW Forums featuring this non-NHL player on the top two lines.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Based solely on my own worthless observations...we are sloooooooow coming out of our zone. The opposition has the ability to set up and clog the neutral zone and make it darn near impossible for us to carry the puck into their end. If we were quicker in transition, we might catch them out of position more often and this would lead to some odd man rushes.

That and Smith sucks....

So we are slow in transition, but you dont like our best skating defenseman?

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I hope they waive Jurco so we can finally stop seeing hypothetical lineups posted on LGW Forums featuring this non-NHL player on the top two lines.

Uh...he was on the 2nd line two games ago.

The Jurc has clearly reached put up time, or else prospect love begins to turn to hate.

Stages of the LGW prospect romance:

Post-draft oogling

If I could only get them away from Holland Phase

Honeymoon period as they first play on the wings

I'm not that into you (signs of struggle)

Pre-breakup phase (calls for trade while he still has value)

The Emmerton who? stage

Am I missing any stages?

Edited October 21, 2015 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[Buppy 1,720]

And you were there to explain how the offense wasn't good, after even fewer games. We are all here to talk about the team, and throwing our hands up and citing small sample size is true of every single objective measure we would use to judge the performance of this team. At least up to this point. But I don't think we all want to wait for 20 games before posting again.

I get your point. Its a small sample, but what else should we use to judge the defense? Turnovers? We are middle of the league in those. Scoring chances against? Middle of the league in those. Goals against? Middle of the league in those. In fact the only thing that's downright terrible is our shots against.

And given that such a small sample size can dramatically skew stats, couldn't we actually be quite a lot better than even I'm suggesting?

Nothing other than shots against suggests our defense is terrible. Mediocre? Sure. And that's what I was refuting...over 5 games. But the narrative seems to be "our defense sucks" regardless of how they play. Likely because its fun to point fingers at Ericsson, Quincey, Kind, and Smith.

Yes, defense is difficult to measure, even with a much larger sample. But I think we're just nit-picking now over how bad is bad. I think it's been as bad as our offense, you don't. Whatever.

However, I do think at least most of the people calling out our defense (meaning our group of defensemen) are doing so for their lack of offensive contributions as much or more than for their defense.

I think the core of the problem is in our ability to hang on to the puck, not just as individuals but also as a team (e.g. Moving the puck around quickly and accurately). That's vital to both our offense and defense, forwards and defensemen, ES, PP, and even a little to the PK.

[sjr2012 439]

Jurco for sure is my least favorite forward i perfer Pulk i know alot of ppl dont think he has what it takes at thenhl level either but i feel with alittle more work he could perfect his weaknesses and be a very good soild sniper

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Uh...he was on the 2nd line two games ago.

The Jurc has clearly reached put up time, or else prospect love begins to turn to hate.

Stages of the LGW prospect romance:

Post-draft oogling

If I could only get them away from Holland Phase

Honeymoon period as they first play on the wings

I'm not that into you (signs of struggle)

Pre-breakup phase (calls for trade while he still has value)

The Emmerton who? stage

Am I missing any stages?

This made me laugh hard!!

Smith and Kindl have gone thru many more phases.

At least 2 romance rekindlings for each of these guys.

[WingsAlways 486]

Uh...he was on the 2nd line two games ago.

The Jurc has clearly reached put up time, or else prospect love begins to turn to hate.

Stages of the LGW prospect romance:

Post-draft oogling

If I could only get them away from Holland Phase

Honeymoon period as they first play on the wings

I'm not that into you (signs of struggle)

Pre-breakup phase (calls for trade while he still has value)

The Emmerton who? stage

Am I missing any stages?

The "goes to other team and scores against Howard" stage

[Shinzaki 72]

So we are slow in transition, but you dont like our best skating defenseman?

Yes...I don't like him because he makes really bad decisions with the puck and often turns it over in his own end or makes a really bad first pass. The key to making that quick transition isn't lugging the puck..it's the quick outlet. It's not much different from soccer or basketball. You clear your end and create opportunities by quickly exiting your zone. Skating it out is usually the slowest way to do that.

Smith also has lousy situational awareness...he loses his man frequently. As a result, he always seems to be trailing the play defensively or caught out of position

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Yes...I don't like him because he makes really bad decisions with the puck and often turns it over in his own end or makes a really bad first pass. The key to making that quick transition isn't lugging the puck..it's the quick outlet. It's not much different from soccer or basketball. You clear your end and create opportunities by quickly exiting your zone. Skating it out is usually the slowest way to do that.

Smith also has lousy situational awareness...he loses his man frequently. As a result, he always seems to be trailing the play defensively or caught out of position

Ericsson and Kindl could be inserted into this statement, and you wouldnt find many disagreements. Smith is the easy target. The problem is deeper than just Smith, though. Forwards that are outweighed by 30 lbs do not help a transition game, either. Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Tatar, Miller, Richards, Ferraro, etc. These guys aren't difficult to push around. That makes a big difference for a defenseman looking to advance the puck to the neutral zone. These guys should all be 200 lbs + by now. Over 5 or 6 guys, the 30 lb weight differential adds up to a whole extra player of weight. A lot more things are upgradeable for the Red Wings than just Brendan Smith. It's not like the team looked like the 85 Oilers against Montreal when they took him out. They looked just as bad, if not worse.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Ericsson and Kindl could be inserted into this statement, and you wouldnt find many disagreements. Smith is the easy target. The problem is deeper than just Smith, though. Forwards that are outweighed by 30 lbs do not help a transition game, either. Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Tatar, Miller, Richards, Ferraro, etc. These guys aren't difficult to push around. That makes a big difference for a defenseman looking to advance the puck to the neutral zone. These guys should all be 200 lbs + by now. Over 5 or 6 guys, the 30 lb weight differential adds up to a whole extra player of weight. A lot more things are upgradeable for the Red Wings than just Brendan Smith. It's not like the team looked like the 85 Oilers against Montreal when they took him out. They looked just as bad, if not worse.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are how old and still not 200+ lbs.

Sorry that's not some magic number that transitions to success.

And outweighed by 30lbs? What percentage of players are over 230lbs lol?

[kickazz 5,459]

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are how old and still not 200+ lbs.

Sorry that's not some magic number that transitions to success.

And outweighed by 30lbs? What percentage of players are over 230lbs lol?

I've always wondered what their weight was in their early 20s. I never found any data. Imo the 196-197ibs range that both of them are has been perfect for their height and game play. Not that I'm into specific numbers. But I am a proponent of having a "good amount" of muscle/body strength.

[Shinzaki 72]

I think the weight thing is overblown...drastically. It's not like we're running 175lb guys out there on all three lines against a team of Byfuglien sized monsters.

So far as Smith and the rest of the D goes...no they are not good collectively, but Smith has been particularly bad which may have something to do with him being a healthy scratch the last two games.

On a completely different note...Richards has shown very little. If they want to play Datsyuk and Hank together when Datsyuk returns, I can't see Richards centering the 2nd line over Sheahan

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Richards is playing a role over his nowadays abilities simple as that. Chicago fans were saying he is a good third line but not a second line center anymore

Jurco needs to be packaged in order to get something useable back.

And no the lbs thing is not overblown it's been true since quite some time. When was the last time the Wings outmuscled an even average heavy team ?

How people can already criticise Blashill is just nuts he is takin over from the best coach in hockey and sadly doesn't have the horses Babs has had when he took over. People are acting like getting outcoached by the koala is surprising McLellan is a damn good and experienced coach..Blashill is still new to the NHL.

At some point Holland will need to trade for a rugged top 4 defenseman Kronner isn't getting younger either.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

I think the weight thing is overblown...drastically. It's not like we're running 175lb guys out there on all three lines against a team of Byfuglien sized monsters.

So far as Smith and the rest of the D goes...no they are not good collectively, but Smith has been particularly bad which may have something to do with him being a healthy scratch the last two games.

On a completely different note...Richards has shown very little. If they want to play Datsyuk and Hank together when Datsyuk returns, I can't see Richards centering the 2nd line over Sheahan

3 and 1 with Smith.

0 and 2 without Smith.

I dont think there's good evidence to support the Smith is collectively bad argument.

What there is good evidence for, however, is replacing Drew Miller.

He's our best pk specialist? Well, our pk sucks. Maybe it's time we bring up some speed (Athanasiou) to replace 180 lb, slow Drew Miller so we dont have to be on the pk as much??

[kickazz 5,459]

3 and 1 with Smith.

0 and 2 without Smith.

I dont think there's good evidence to support the Smith is collectively bad argument.

What there is good evidence for, however, is replacing Drew Miller.

He's our best pk specialist? Well, our pk sucks. Maybe it's time we bring up some speed (Athanasiou) to replace 180 lb, slow Drew Miller so we dont have to be on the pk as much??

Miller out, Bill Berzeench and his geniousness in.

Thats the Pk unit for next game.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Just to put things into perspective, we're 3-3 through our first six games right now. We've scored 16 goals, and given up 16 goals. Last year we were 3-3 through our first six games. We had scored 12 goals, and given up 10.

Our team isn't looking great right now, but it's not like we're in some kind of a dire situation. We'll get it sorted out.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Just to put things into perspective, we're 3-3 through our first six games right now. We've scored 16 goals, and given up 16 goals. Last year we were 3-3 through our first six games. We had scored 12 goals, and given up 10.

Our team isn't looking great right now, but it's not like we're in some kind of a dire situation. We'll get it sorted out.

And yet last year with a coach who was a proven winner in the NHL the Wings still struggled to qualify for the playoffs.

Not dire yet, no, but a fan can sweat.

[kipwinger 8,492]

And yet last year with a coach who was a proven winner in the NHL the Wings still struggled to qualify for the playoffs.

Not dire yet, no, but a fan can sweat.

Sweat all season long if you want. 76 games is a long time. I'm not ready to throw my hands up in exasperation after 6 games. Particularly when we've been here before, and we've got a better team now. We'll be fine.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Miller out, Bill Berzeench and his geniousness in.

Thats the Pk unit for next game.

You are finally coming around!

What is our next roster move? Who sits when Smith gets back in? Ericsson? Kindl?

[rick zombo 3,739]

Get through this stretch withh all the back-to-backs and stay at .500 until Datsyuk returns, then stay relatively healty. That's the recipe for a good season.

[krsmith17 7,191]

We started out 3-0 and everyone was on a high. "Even when this team doesn't play it's best hockey, they still find a way to win. Cup or bust"... Then we went 0-3 and everyone is ready to jump. "This team suck, worst Red Wings team I've ever seen. Tank It!"... Typical LGW...

If we had gone win, loss, win, loss, win, loss, I think everyone would be okay, but we lost our last 3 and all of a sudden, we aren't a playoff team?...

The team as a whole isn't playing the greatest, but blaming the same individual players game after game is stupid... The team needs to get their s*** together and theirs not a doubt in my mind that they will.

These losses are not solely on Blashill, Ericsson, Quincey, Kindl, Smith, Richards, Miller, Jurco, or whoever else is today's LGW whipping boy...

[kickazz 5,459]

The entire Red Wings roster aside from Larkin and Zetterberg is my whipping boy.

Get your s**** together.

I don't care how you started off last year or the year before or 20 years ago. This is a new season, you have a better team with new additions and a new prospect. 3 game losing streak should raise eyebrows at the very least.

They better be hungry for a win next game.