• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

LeftWinger

Wings Need on D and Glaring Inconsistencies

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Personally I'm glad GMs aren't listening to fans because we all have different opinions on what should have been done and now. But we aren't the ones knowing all the ins and outs of the job nor is our job on the line if we mess up.

that being said I'm still amazed how much KH has changed his approach , as Wings we received the players we wanted back in the good old days but now it seems like Holland is afraid of blockbusters and for whatever reason ignoring the need for more size and gritty type of game from the bottom 6, third pairing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to believe Holland is saving all his assets for a real deal impact player. Problem with Jones and Johanssen is that these teams are interested in winning now and we don't have the peices that would make huge impacts right away. If a bad team is looking to unload and prepare for the future Holland should be working hard so this deadline should be interesting... I have a strong feeling Mantha won't be a Red Wing for very long... Also they may look to make a sideways deal with a team like Anaheim where they send Nyquist for a big forward or dman

Edited by joesuffP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love Nyquist, but if he were traded in a package for a good return I could live with it. I do not want Mantha involved in any package deal unless it brings in that big, skilled winger that we'd be losing. I think Holland does a lot of good things as a general manager, but in my opinion, making trades is not one of them. I do not trust that he would get a good enough return on Mantha...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I'm glad GMs aren't listening to fans because we all have different opinions on what should have been done and now. But we aren't the ones knowing all the ins and outs of the job nor is our job on the line if we mess up.

that being said I'm still amazed how much KH has changed his approach , as Wings we received the players we wanted back in the good old days but now it seems like Holland is afraid of blockbusters and for whatever reason ignoring the need for more size and gritty type of game from the bottom 6, third pairing

The "change in approach" has everything to do with the cap and the way that He can spend Ilitch's money. Don't get it twisted Frank, Ken Holland has NEVER made a blockbuster trade.

...but thumbs up to the first half of your post. All my "KH doesn't listen to us" is most certainly tongue in cheek silliness.

Edited by e_prime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have no idea what Ken Holland's day to day is. Just sayin'.

Now if you're saying that KH should be a wheeler dealer making moves across the league with the entirety of the roster, I'd say:

This is not the time for that.

1. You've got a brand new head coach and staff learning the ins and outs of this roster, give them a chance to play the guys you've (GMKH) put in place. Sure, we're getting into the season so they should be figuring it out, but we're still more than six weeks out to the trade deadline. So KH still has some time to make some moves and the coaches have some time too.

2. You've got two highly touted free agents (Green/Richards) and some prospects that are up and playing pretty much full time (Marchy/Pulkks/Jurco) added to a roster that need to mesh with the team that's been the core/mainstays for the last couple years.

3. You've got players who under the previous head coach were not given the opportunity to play "their game" or allowed to see regular icetime in the system set forth by that previous headcoach. (Smith/KIndl/Pullks/Jurco)

4. This is a team that while it could use some upgrades, does not need a major overhaul. Keeping Kindl on the roster does not diminish our team to the point of "this guy limits our ability to ice a good team and is costing us games."

That being said:

1. Ken Holland works the phone. He kicks some tires, but in terms of activity, he's no Holmgren. He's not going to make a knee jerk decision just because there's a little roster pile up. One injury and you're not in a roster pile up. He likes his depth and he will keep it for as long as he possibly can.

That's the way he rolls and to think that he's going to change that stance because of Jakob Kindl is silly.

2. I, like many others on LGW, have been calling for/begging/praying for a trade of a d-man for a couple years.

KH is a stubborn bastard and listens to none of us. So...

It would have been nice to think that they both could make cases for themselves so that Kindl had some more value than just a "former first rounder" that's "barely been/has not been able to hang on to the six spot."

Whether he can be traded or not is not my concern, it's what he's actually worth. ...because it ain't much, and ppl are going to ***** to no end if KH doesn't get "something" for him.

Great post. I dont want Holland to be making trades just for the sake of it. I just want him to address the team's needs, which you perfectly pointed out. He fails to do that or does it extremely poorly on a consistent basis. We need a 1A defensemen. He signs a 3B in Zidlicky one year, and a 2B in Green the next. We need a first line goal scoring winger. He signs a 3rd line all around winger who's a china doll one year, and a third line passing center the next. Ken Holland doesnt need to go trade crazy. He just needs to learn how to do his fricking job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post. I dont want Holland to be making trades just for the sake of it. I just want him to address the team's needs, which you perfectly pointed out. He fails to do that or does it extremely poorly on a consistent basis. We need a 1A defensemen. He signs a 3B in Zidlicky one year, and a 2B in Green the next. We need a first line goal scoring winger. He signs a 3rd line all around winger who's a china doll one year, and a third line passing center the next. Ken Holland doesnt need to go trade crazy. He just needs to learn how to do his fricking job.

...but if the needs can't be addressed because a good trade isn't there to be made, or it's to the detriment to the team, for example trading Mantha or Larkin, the future of our first line... he should just go ahead and do it anyway, you know, to address current needs.

Meanwhile, he shouldn't try and see if a guy like Zidlicky -- who arguably didn't cost us much -- can give us a boost for the playoffs... or if he doesn't land the huge free agent during the overpayment period known as free-agent frenzy, he shouldn't go ahead and sign a FA right handed puck moving defenseman that, you know, fits our needs to a reasonable contract, because you don't think they're good enough. They're just not 1A guys?

I know you're relatively new around here Bill, and you say you're a fan, but I'm not so sure you're clear on how it works... so let me explain it. Holland can't just trade the bits, nobs, and spare parts we having lying about, like Kindl, Helm, Ericsson, etc. and *VOILA* have three superstars on each of the top two lines or a top flight first pairing defenseman. It takes two to tango. You only get what you give and it works both ways.

Meanwhile, you're going to pile on and criticize a GM solely because he can't trade for a top pairing defenseman? How many other GMs in the league haven't been able to trade for a top pairing defensemen? How often, but especially right around the trade deadline, do we hear about teams that want to upgrade the defense and/or need a top flight, right handed puck moving defenseman.

Gain some clarity, perspective, and a grasp on reality my friend. Then look at what he's done for this franchise while others have come and gone around the league or are mired in mediocrity. Then go ahead, tell him to learn how to do his job.

Oh, and sure, you're allowed to your opinion on how Ken Holland does his job... ... but it's laughable. HA. HA. HA.

Edited by e_prime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...but if the needs can't be addressed because a good trade isn't there to be made, or it's to the detriment to the team, for example trading Mantha or Larkin, the future of our first line... he should just go ahead and do it anyway, you know, to address current needs.

Meanwhile, he shouldn't try and see if a guy like Zidlicky -- who arguably didn't cost us much -- can give us a boost for the playoffs... or if he doesn't land the huge free agent during the overpayment period known as free-agent frenzy, he shouldn't go ahead and sign a FA right handed puck moving defenseman that, you know, fits our needs to a reasonable contract, because you don't think they're good enough. They're just not 1A guys?

I know you're relatively new around here Bill, and you say you're a fan, but I'm not so sure you're clear on how it works... so let me explain it. Holland can't just trade the bits, nobs, and spare parts we having lying about, like Kindl, Helm, Ericsson, etc. and *VOILA* have three superstars on each of the top two lines or a top flight first pairing defenseman. It takes two to tango. You only get what you give and it works both ways.

Meanwhile, you're going to pile on and criticize a GM solely because he can't trade for a top pairing defenseman? How many other GMs in the league haven't been able to trade for a top pairing defensemen? How often, but especially right around the trade deadline, do we hear about teams that want to upgrade the defense and/or need a top flight, right handed puck moving defenseman.

Gain some clarity, perspective, and a grasp on reality my friend. Then look at what he's done for this franchise while others have come and gone around the league or are mired in mediocrity. Then go ahead, tell him to learn how to do his job.

Oh, and sure, you're allowed to your opinion on how Ken Holland does his job... ... but it's laughable. HA. HA. HA.

And Nashville cant just trade Seth Jones to get a #1C. And Minnesota cant just pick up Suter and parise for nothing as UFA's. And New York cant just land Yandle for prospects. And Washington cant just pick up Niskanen. And Dallas cant just land a fututecentl for an old winger and pick up another #2C who recently was a #1C for prospects. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR KEN HOLLAND. He is garbage. Holland is picking up everyone elses trash and paying them for past accomplishments. He has no idea what he's doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Nashville cant just trade Seth Jones to get a #1C. And Minnesota cant just pick up Suter and parise for nothing as UFA's. And New York cant just land Yandle for prospects. And Washington cant just pick up Niskanen. And Dallas cant just land a fututecentl for an old winger and pick up another #2C who recently was a #1C for prospects. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR KEN HOLLAND. He is garbage. Holland is picking up everyone elses trash and paying them for past accomplishments. He has no idea what he's doing.

I want to argue with you, but I suspect it would be useless. I get a real anti-Franzen-style-irrationality feel about your opinion of Holland. Like he's your Drew Miller of management.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Nashville cant just trade Seth Jones to get a #1C. And Minnesota cant just pick up Suter and parise for nothing as UFA's. And New York cant just land Yandle for prospects. And Washington cant just pick up Niskanen. And Dallas cant just land a fututecentl for an old winger and pick up another #2C who recently was a #1C for prospects. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR KEN HOLLAND. He is garbage. Holland is picking up everyone elses trash and paying them for past accomplishments. He has no idea what he's doing.

- Who do we have that's equivalent to Jones on D that you would have been willing to trade?

- Suter and Parise were a very rare case of UFA sweepstakes. They picked their destination based on personal connections to the area. We could have moved the team to Minnesota, but I don't fault Kenny for not going with that decision.

- Yes, we missed Niskanen, but we picked up Green, Alfie, Dekeyser, Richards. It's the nature of free agency - you miss on some, you get some. It's clear Nisky wanted to go to a cup favourite - we're not one because we've been rebuilding and transitioning to youth (lark, ny, tat, mraz, DK, etc). The price of success

- WHo's our equivalent to Erikkson for the Dallas trade? ...aging top line winger...Franzen...no way would they take him with injury concerns and a serious contract (does RAM voice)...Zetterberg? I would personally gather the pitchforks to head to Holland's office. Maybe you're talking about a different trade though since you said Winger + a pick and the seguin deal was a 7 player deal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Nashville cant just trade Seth Jones to get a #1C. And Minnesota cant just pick up Suter and parise for nothing as UFA's. And New York cant just land Yandle for prospects. And Washington cant just pick up Niskanen. And Dallas cant just land a fututecentl for an old winger and pick up another #2C who recently was a #1C for prospects. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR KEN HOLLAND. He is garbage. Holland is picking up everyone elses trash and paying them for past accomplishments. He has no idea what he's doing.

I find it funny that you call a man garbage, but at the same time you drool over all of his draft choices. According to you, Larkin is elite, and Mantha, Svechnikov and AA are all already top 6 forwards, not to mention you said Mrazek is "the man". How can a GM who is such "garbage" do such a good job at drafting.

There are many aspects of being a good GM, the biggest is to ultimately build a team that can win a Stanley Cup (something he has done multiple times). There are two ways to do this, through UFA and trades, and then complement the team via the draft, and to build a team via the draft and complement the team via UFA/trades. Holland has obviously taken the second route. If all of our prospects were junk, you very well may have a very good point, but when he have a prospect pool that has Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, Sproul and relatively young players like Mrazek, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc it is hard for me accept your point as having any validity.

Holland doesn't make giant moves and definitely takes more of a conservative approach. But big moves don't necessarily equal success (see Philly).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it funny that you call a man garbage, but at the same time you drool over all of his draft choices. According to you, Larkin is elite, and Mantha, Svechnikov and AA are all already top 6 forwards, not to mention you said Mrazek is "the man". How can a GM who is such "garbage" do such a good job at drafting.

There are many aspects of being a good GM, the biggest is to ultimately build a team that can win a Stanley Cup (something he has done multiple times). There are two ways to do this, through UFA and trades, and then complement the team via the draft, and to build a team via the draft and complement the team via UFA/trades. Holland has obviously taken the second route. If all of our prospects were junk, you very well may have a very good point, but when he have a prospect pool that has Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, Sproul and relatively young players like Mrazek, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc it is hard for me accept your point as having any validity.

Holland doesn't make giant moves and definitely takes more of a conservative approach. But big moves don't necessarily equal success (see Philly).

Hakkan Andersson and Devellano are still with the organization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Who do we have that's equivalent to Jones on D that you would have been willing to trade?

- Suter and Parise were a very rare case of UFA sweepstakes. They picked their destination based on personal connections to the area. We could have moved the team to Minnesota, but I don't fault Kenny for not going with that decision.

- Yes, we missed Niskanen, but we picked up Green, Alfie, Dekeyser, Richards. It's the nature of free agency - you miss on some, you get some. It's clear Nisky wanted to go to a cup favourite - we're not one because we've been rebuilding and transitioning to youth (lark, ny, tat, mraz, DK, etc). The price of success

- WHo's our equivalent to Erikkson for the Dallas trade? ...aging top line winger...Franzen...no way would they take him with injury concerns and a serious contract (does RAM voice)...Zetterberg? I would personally gather the pitchforks to head to Holland's office. Maybe you're talking about a different trade though since you said Winger + a pick and the seguin deal was a 7 player deal?

Wouldn't really say Eriksson was "aging" or "old". He was only 28 when that trade was made. He was coming off a down year, but prior to that had 3 straight 70+ point seasons. Zetterberg or Datsyuk would have been our only comparable players. Still would have been worth it the way Seguin has developed, but that wasn't exactly a given.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hakkan Andersson and Devellano are still with the organization.

Yep and when it comes to who the Wings draft, you know who has final say.....Ken Holland. A GM's job is to hire the right people, and gather as much info as they can from those people and ultimately make the right decision. If the Wings have a bad draft, you know who that falls on....Ken Holland. If the Wings have a great draft, you know who deserves credit....Ken Holland.

Cant have it both ways. You cant praise all the guys he drafts, but then say he is "garbage".

Edited by kliq

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Who do we have that's equivalent to Jones on D that you would have been willing to trade?

- Suter and Parise were a very rare case of UFA sweepstakes. They picked their destination based on personal connections to the area. We could have moved the team to Minnesota, but I don't fault Kenny for not going with that decision.

- Yes, we missed Niskanen, but we picked up Green, Alfie, Dekeyser, Richards. It's the nature of free agency - you miss on some, you get some. It's clear Nisky wanted to go to a cup favourite - we're not one because we've been rebuilding and transitioning to youth (lark, ny, tat, mraz, DK, etc). The price of success

- WHo's our equivalent to Erikkson for the Dallas trade? ...aging top line winger...Franzen...no way would they take him with injury concerns and a serious contract (does RAM voice)...Zetterberg? I would personally gather the pitchforks to head to Holland's office. Maybe you're talking about a different trade though since you said Winger + a pick and the seguin deal was a 7 player deal?

Niklas Kronwall.

10 mil a season for 8 years would have brought both Suter and Parise here to Detroit. We gave the 20 mil to Howard, Weiss, Ericsson, Tootoo, Samuelsson, and Cleary instead.

DeKeyser chose us. He's not a hit for Holland. Alfedsson, Green, and Richards were let go by other teams. That's the kind of UFA Kenny can land - a player who was good 4 years ago. And Kenny likes to pay them for their past accomplishments instead of current value.

Helm + Nyquist + Ouellet.

Holland is a coattail rider.

Devellano, Bowman, Andersson, and Nill are the brains. Holland got super lucky to have those 4 guys around him. Bowman and Nill are gone now, Devellano has gone senile, and Andersson is a small fish in a big, saturated pond now instead of the only fish in an uncharted pond. That's why Holland has looked so lost over the last 5 years and Dallas and Chicago are enjoying success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't really say Eriksson was "aging" or "old". He was only 28 when that trade was made. He was coming off a down year, but prior to that had 3 straight 70+ point seasons. Zetterberg or Datsyuk would have been our only comparable players. Still would have been worth it the way Seguin has developed, but that wasn't exactly a given.

Very true. The aging part were actually Bill's words when he said "And Dallas cant just land a fututecentl for an old winger and pick up another #2C who recently was a #1C for prospects" The Seguin deal was more complicated than Bill suggedted though. It was Seguin/Peverley/Button for Eriksson/Joseph Morrow/Reilly Smith/Matt Fraser. Not sure what that would be for us. Not sure Boston would take and older player (Z) instead of Erikkson. Who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Niklas Kronwall.

10 mil a season for 8 years would have brought both Suter and Parise here to Detroit. We gave the 20 mil to Howard, Weiss, Ericsson, Tootoo, Samuelsson, and Cleary instead.

DeKeyser chose us. He's not a hit for Holland. Alfedsson, Green, and Richards were let go by other teams. That's the kind of UFA Kenny can land - a player who was good 4 years ago. And Kenny likes to pay them for their past accomplishments instead of current value.

Helm + Nyquist + Ouellet.

Holland is a coattail rider.

Devellano, Bowman, Andersson, and Nill are the brains. Holland got super lucky to have those 4 guys around him. Bowman and Nill are gone now, Devellano has gone senile, and Andersson is a small fish in a big, saturated pond now instead of the only fish in an uncharted pond. That's why Holland has looked so lost over the last 5 years and Dallas and Chicago are enjoying success.

- Kronwall (34) = Jones (21) ????? also K has NTC or maybe NMC

- 10 mill probably wouldn;t have landed P+S IMO, but I wouldn't want Parise for 10 mill anyway.

- Your DK rebuttal also applies to P+S - Free agents are free to choose - It's not always certain GMs fault for not getting them. Sometime it's for money, sometime's it;s hometown, sometimes it organizations reputation...

Not going into the coattail argument. You have no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the organization and your claims just show a personal bias.

Anyway, I know you won't change your mind. I think the team is in a great position as our strategy of building from the draft is coming to fruition. We did some placefiller deals in these transition years (Sammy, Tootoo, coliacovo, Weiss, cleary). I'm glad we didn;t trade away our draft picks or get tied up overpaying UFAs (Other than with Weiss). Good night.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Kronwall (34) = Jones (21) ????? also K has NTC or maybe NMC

- 10 mill probably wouldn;t have landed P+S IMO, but I wouldn't want Parise for 10 mill anyway.

- Your DK rebuttal also applies to P+S - Free agents are free to choose - It's not always certain GMs fault for not getting them. Sometime it's for money, sometime's it;s hometown, sometimes it organizations reputation...

Not going into the coattail argument. You have no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the organization and your claims just show a personal bias.

Anyway, I know you won't change your mind. I think the team is in a great position as our strategy of building from the draft is coming to fruition. We did some placefiller deals in these transition years (Sammy, Tootoo, coliacovo, Weiss, cleary). I'm glad we didn;t trade away our draft picks or get tied up overpaying UFAs (Other than with Weiss). Good night.

Goodnight, brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- Kronwall (34) = Jones (21) ????? also K has NTC or maybe NMC

- 10 mill probably wouldn;t have landed P+S IMO, but I wouldn't want Parise for 10 mill anyway.

- Your DK rebuttal also applies to P+S - Free agents are free to choose - It's not always certain GMs fault for not getting them. Sometime it's for money, sometime's it;s hometown, sometimes it organizations reputation...

lol! Why even try. If someone cant see the difference between trading for a 21 year old who isn't close to his peak or a 34 year old in decline, there is just no point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Niklas Kronwall.

10 mil a season for 8 years would have brought both Suter and Parise here to Detroit. We gave the 20 mil to Howard, Weiss, Ericsson, Tootoo, Samuelsson, and Cleary instead.

DeKeyser chose us. He's not a hit for Holland. Alfedsson, Green, and Richards were let go by other teams. That's the kind of UFA Kenny can land - a player who was good 4 years ago. And Kenny likes to pay them for their past accomplishments instead of current value.

Helm + Nyquist + Ouellet.

Holland is a coattail rider.

Devellano, Bowman, Andersson, and Nill are the brains. Holland got super lucky to have those 4 guys around him. Bowman and Nill are gone now, Devellano has gone senile, and Andersson is a small fish in a big, saturated pond now instead of the only fish in an uncharted pond. That's why Holland has looked so lost over the last 5 years and Dallas and Chicago are enjoying success.

Actually, the year Suter and Parise were signed we were giving Howard, Ericsson, Tootoo, and Sammy $10.4 million combined. Weiss wasn't signed until the next year. Regardless, having those two at $7.5 per until they're 40 would've been tough enough. $10 would be even moreso, and you can't even say for sure that would have been enough.

And seriously, Nyquist equivalent to Eriksson? He's barely close right now. When that trade was made Nyquist was still a prospect. 40 games played, 4 goals, 13 points. Another 2g, 5p in 18 playoff games.

That and the Kronwall thing prove just how irrational you're being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep and when it comes to who the Wings draft, you know who has final say.....Ken Holland. A GM's job is to hire the right people, and gather as much info as they can from those people and ultimately make the right decision. If the Wings have a bad draft, you know who that falls on....Ken Holland. If the Wings have a great draft, you know who deserves credit....Ken Holland.

Cant have it both ways. You cant praise all the guys he drafts, but then say he is "garbage".

- Kronwall (34) = Jones (21) ????? also K has NTC or maybe NMC

- 10 mill probably wouldn;t have landed P+S IMO, but I wouldn't want Parise for 10 mill anyway.

- Your DK rebuttal also applies to P+S - Free agents are free to choose - It's not always certain GMs fault for not getting them. Sometime it's for money, sometime's it;s hometown, sometimes it organizations reputation...

Not going into the coattail argument. You have no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the organization and your claims just show a personal bias.

Anyway, I know you won't change your mind. I think the team is in a great position as our strategy of building from the draft is coming to fruition. We did some placefiller deals in these transition years (Sammy, Tootoo, coliacovo, Weiss, cleary). I'm glad we didn;t trade away our draft picks or get tied up overpaying UFAs (Other than with Weiss). Good night.

lol! Why even try. If someone cant see the difference between trading for a 21 year old who isn't close to his peak or a 34 year old in decline, there is just no point.

Actually, the year Suter and Parise were signed we were giving Howard, Ericsson, Tootoo, and Sammy $10.4 million combined. Weiss wasn't signed until the next year. Regardless, having those two at $7.5 per until they're 40 would've been tough enough. $10 would be even moreso, and you can't even say for sure that would have been enough.

And seriously, Nyquist equivalent to Eriksson? He's barely close right now. When that trade was made Nyquist was still a prospect. 40 games played, 4 goals, 13 points. Another 2g, 5p in 18 playoff games.

That and the Kronwall thing prove just how irrational you're being.

I hear crickets.

"Good posts"

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winnepeg is a super free wheeling team I wouldn't be surprised to see Buffs point totals drop pretty severely if he came here

I also like the idea of adding Shattenkirk, he's on a really nice contract but he doesn't exactly help our lack of toughness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Byfuglien's points are going to drop pretty severely over the next couple years regardless of what team he's on. I don't want him as a rental because I don't think he's a player that puts us over the top, and I definitely don't want him long term.

Shattenkirk, that's a player I'd like to see us go after. I'd kill to get Trouba or Faulk though. A combination of Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Ericsson, Marchenko, Ouellet, draft picks for any of those 3 would be unbelievable...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now