Jurco on Conditioning Assignment in GRs

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Speaking as someone who has back issues, they don't go away. If his back is the reason he's not playing at 22 years old, how bad is it going to be in 3 years? As far as his effort goes, Blashill flat out said he needs to skate harder if he wants to play. That's an effort issue.

Because Miller isn't there to score, he's there to kill penalties and play a checking line role. Jurco is supposed to be this highly skilled player, isn't good defensively, and doesn't kill penalties.

The stats just make your argument a total FAIL. Read the whole thread. Jurco's advanced stats are very good.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

The stats just make your argument a total FAIL. Read the whole thread. Jurco's advanced stats are very good.

Watching Excel sheets doesn't replace the game of hockey it just satisfies some math freaks. This annoying development will go away as fast as it came hockey is much faster than baseball and there are too many intangibles involved.

So who cares you either have work ethic and dedication to the and or you don't..

you either score or you don't...I don't need excel just basic logic

Edited November 22, 2015 by frankgrimes

[joesuffP 1,746]

He still has a lot to prove but saying his career is over because of back injuries or his bad work ethic is just stupid. He's 22 years old

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Watching Excel sheets doesn't replace the game of hockey it just satisfies some math freaks. This annoying development will go away as fast as it came hockey is much faster than baseball and there are too many intangibles involved.

So who cares you either have work ethic and dedication to the and or you don't..

you either score or you don't...I don't need excel just basic logic

Im perfectly fine with rhis logic. Just use it for EVERYONE. Dont give me some horse shyte "he kills penalties" or "he's a good shot blocker" or "he fits his role" argument for anyone else on the team, either. Sick of the double standard. Drew Miller has one fricking assist this year and has NEVER produced for the Red Wings. EVER. But everyone seems to want to make the stupidest excuses for him no matter how bad he stinks. "He fits his role." Is his role to stink and hurt the team by being useless 5 on 5? Ok. Then yah. He fits his role of being useless. Lets apply that to Jurco then if you are unsatisfied with his peoduction. He's just fitting his role. So annoying to hear people say ine player deserves a demotion for not hitting the scoresheet, but another deserves praise for NEVER hitting the scoresheet.

[Mckinley25 677]

Watching Excel sheets doesn't replace the game of hockey it just satisfies some math freaks. This annoying development will go away as fast as it came hockey is much faster than baseball and there are too many intangibles involved.

So who cares you either have work ethic and dedication to the and or you don't..

you either score or you don't...I don't need excel just basic logic

It won't go away, the desire to be the best is what created advanced stats, it's a direct result of the intangibles you mentioned.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Watching Excel sheets doesn't replace the game of hockey it just satisfies some math freaks. This annoying development will go away as fast as it came hockey is much faster than baseball and there are too many intangibles involved.

So who cares you either have work ethic and dedication to the and or you don't..

you either score or you don't...I don't need excel just basic logic

It's not going away. Any quantifiable way people can measure the performance of athletes and correlate that with success or failure is going to be used as a tool to determine who plays vs who sits, who to sign vs who to let walk, who to put out on a PK vs powerplay etc. As a fan, you can either adapt with the times and get savvy with the new information coming in, and find yourself an active and relevant participant in discussions down the road with an accurate insight to the game, or you can become that guy who relies exclusively on the "good old eyeball test" and lacks what is turning into a fundamental understanding of how the game is played and the reasons coaches make the decisions they do.

[Buppy 1,720]

Exactly PVD, people that are skeptical of Jurco, keep saying that he has had his opportunities, but he really hasn't. His first stint when he played those 36 games was the only time he was given a real opportunity to succeed, and he did so, beyond expectations. Since then, he has played a scattered game in the top 9, and if he didn't immediately produce he was either demoted to the 4th line or healthy scratched. What 21-22 year old can remain confident and continue to play at an ultra high level in that situation? Not many.

Comparing him to Larkin? Seriously? A better comparison would be the countless other prospects that we've had that couldn't get it done at the NHL level until they were 22-24, don't ya think? Larkin is a very special player and rare case, especially for Red Wings prospects.

There's no question he was mishandled as a prospect, but I also don't think there's any question that Blashill will get him back on track. I'm just happy they seem to have learned from there mistakes with Jurco and are not doing the same with Mantha.

This conditioning stint will be great for his confidence, and I believe once he gets back up he will take his opportunity and run with it.

You're wrong. He had plenty of opportunities. 60% of his ice-time last year. Half of that with at least one of our top scorers. Plus, it is actually possible to score even in a lesser role. He had a poor year. Just like with Mantha, it's ok to say it. Doesn't make him a bust or mean he'll never be better. Not even that terrible a year either, all things considered. It's one thing to refute the few who seem to writing him off, but you don't need to make excuses.

And I wouldn't say he was mishandled at all. He was originally called up as an injury replacement, and performed well enough to earn a spot last year. Even if he had started in GR, he'd have been called up for injuries soon enough anyway. If anything, he's been mishandled this year. Playing, even in a less than optimal role, is better than not playing.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

It's not going away. Any quantifiable way people can measure the performance of athletes and correlate that with success or failure is going to be used as a tool to determine who plays vs who sits, who to sign vs who to let walk, who to put out on a PK vs powerplay etc. As a fan, you can either adapt with the times and get savvy with the new information coming in, and find yourself an active and relevant participant in discussions down the road with an accurate insight to the game, or you can become that guy who relies exclusively on the "good old eyeball test" and lacks what is turning into a fundamental understanding of how the game is played and the reasons coaches make the decisions they do.

We will see if it goes away or not...:-)

There is nothing to discuss about this stuff, some like it some don't I don't and would basically pull a Colton Orr and laugh it off. I'm not a coach and I don't need to understand everything they do, but by watching the game I can easily see who is giving his all and who isn't it may not always show up on the scoreboard and like I've said there are intangibles involved and secondly I don't need to have Excel open while watching a hockeygame.

When the coach comes out and basically states that a player isn't giving his all and gets demoted because of this I don't need to know all the stuff that went into the decision, fact is he Jurco hasn't worked hard enough and thats why they've send him down. Is his career over? Far from it but at some point he either gets it going or he doesn't simple as that and I really don't need Excel for knowing that.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

You're wrong. He had plenty of opportunities. 60% of his ice-time last year. Half of that with at least one of our top scorers. Plus, it is actually possible to score even in a lesser role. He had a poor year. Just like with Mantha, it's ok to say it. Doesn't make him a bust or mean he'll never be better. Not even that terrible a year either, all things considered. It's one thing to refute the few who seem to writing him off, but you don't need to make excuses.

And I wouldn't say he was mishandled at all. He was originally called up as an injury replacement, and performed well enough to earn a spot last year. Even if he had started in GR, he'd have been called up for injuries soon enough anyway. If anything, he's been mishandled this year. Playing, even in a less than optimal role, is better than not playing.

I agree with the first half and krsmith slightly misunderstood my last post. He did have good opportunities offensively at the beginning of last year. It has come out that he had these back problems so that partially explains his offensive struggles. I think the other factor that is responsible is that he didn't have that foundation of confidence and training that comes from playing in GR for an extended period. Down there you go through the struggles of confidence and injuries and poor play and learn how to overcome them and also build up a personal training habits and routine to limit their occurence.

I think he absolutely should have been sent down last year and that would have helped his game and development. That's where most think he was mishandled. He did a lot of defensive things right last year so Babs wanted him on the team (this is where Bill's views on Miller vs. AA are relevant).

It's good to see that he's getting the offensive mojo back in GR. It's still hard to see how he will fit into the roster, though. Having him on anywhere higher than the 4th line would necessitate Sheahan on the 4th and Miller out. Or he waits for injury which is probably the most likely situation.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Im perfectly fine with rhis logic. Just use it for EVERYONE. Dont give me some horse shyte "he kills penalties" or "he's a good shot blocker" or "he fits his role" argument for anyone else on the team, either. Sick of the double standard. Drew Miller has one fricking assist this year and has NEVER produced for the Red Wings. EVER. But everyone seems to want to make the stupidest excuses for him no matter how bad he stinks. "He fits his role." Is his role to stink and hurt the team by being useless 5 on 5? Ok. Then yah. He fits his role of being useless. Lets apply that to Jurco then if you are unsatisfied with his peoduction. He's just fitting his role. So annoying to hear people say ine player deserves a demotion for not hitting the scoresheet, but another deserves praise for NEVER hitting the scoresheet.

Drew Miller attracts little ire because he isn't hyped as a scorer, isn't supposedly swelling with untapped potential, and isn't beloved by by apologetic puck bunnies.

Did I say anything that would indicate that I think you are wishing for Jurco to fail? No. All I'm saying is that you and a few others here are skeptical of what Jurco can and eventually will bring to the Red Wings. And as I've stated time and time again, there is nothing to indicate that he will not eventually be a really good NHL player.

Nothing other than, well, his NHL body of work to date.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Drew Miller attracts little ire because he isn't hyped as a scorer, isn't supposedly swelling with untapped potential, and isn't beloved by by apologetic puck bunnies.

Nothing other than, well, his NHL body of work to date.

And I dont want anyone to have ire for him personally. I just dont like overlooking a real easy problem to fix (Miller out, Jurco in) and then trying to solve an impossible one in fitting 11 top 9 forwards in 9 spots. We dont need to have a s***ty 4th line, do we? That's not a rule, is it? Helm-Glendening-Jurco would be a pretty awesome improvement over Helm-Glendening-Miller.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

And I dont want anyone to have ire for him personally. I just dont like overlooking a real easy problem to fix (Miller out, Jurco in) and then trying to solve an impossible one in fitting 11 top 9 forwards in 9 spots. We dont need to have a s***ty 4th line, do we? That's not a rule, is it? Helm-Glendening-Jurco would be a pretty awesome improvement over Helm-Glendening-Miller.

Apparently Jurco can't succeed in the NHL if he isn't paired with the likes of Dats or Z. I'm just going by what I read here on LGW.

[kliq 3,755]

And I dont want anyone to have ire for him personally. I just dont like overlooking a real easy problem to fix (Miller out, Jurco in) and then trying to solve an impossible one in fitting 11 top 9 forwards in 9 spots. We dont need to have a s***ty 4th line, do we? That's not a rule, is it? Helm-Glendening-Jurco would be a pretty awesome improvement over Helm-Glendening-Miller.

We all get your stance on Drew Miller. Bringing him up in every other thread is the kind of thing that causes posters to say you are trolling. If you are this annoyed by him, just create a "Drew Miller should not be playing" thread.

[Buppy 1,720]

I agree with the first half and krsmith slightly misunderstood my last post. He did have good opportunities offensively at the beginning of last year. It has come out that he had these back problems so that partially explains his offensive struggles. I think the other factor that is responsible is that he didn't have that foundation of confidence and training that comes from playing in GR for an extended period. Down there you go through the struggles of confidence and injuries and poor play and learn how to overcome them and also build up a personal training habits and routine to limit their occurence.

I think he absolutely should have been sent down last year and that would have helped his game and development. That's where most think he was mishandled. He did a lot of defensive things right last year so Babs wanted him on the team (this is where Bill's views on Miller vs. AA are relevant).

It's good to see that he's getting the offensive mojo back in GR. It's still hard to see how he will fit into the roster, though. Having him on anywhere higher than the 4th line would necessitate Sheahan on the 4th and Miller out. Or he waits for injury which is probably the most likely situation.

He had played over 100 games in GR. Similar amount of time to what Helm, Abby, Nyquist, Sheahan, and Pulkkinen spent there.

And I dont want anyone to have ire for him personally. I just dont like overlooking a real easy problem to fix (Miller out, Jurco in) and then trying to solve an impossible one in fitting 11 top 9 forwards in 9 spots. We dont need to have a s***ty 4th line, do we? That's not a rule, is it? Helm-Glendening-Jurco would be a pretty awesome improvement over Helm-Glendening-Miller.

Jurco and Miller have a nearly identical goals per game rate. Assuming he would be an "awesome improvement" is just speculating based on perceived potential. By the same logic, you'd think Jurco-Glen-Miller would have been an awesome improvement over Andy-Glen-Miller, but it wasn't.

Most likely it would just be slightly better offensively but still largely ineffective, and a bit worse defensively while also forcing a better player to spend more energy taking on Miller's PK responsibilities. Wouldn't be the worst thing ever, and better for Jurco to be playing than sitting, but I wouldn't expect it to improve the team in any meaningful way.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Buppy, I'm wrong? Where exactly are you getting this data that he spent all of this TOI with one the top scorers? Here's the data I've seen... In 2013-14 he spent 66.8% of his TOI centered by Sheahan and 57.1% with Tatar on the other wing. That was a very good half a season for the 20 year old Jurco, putting up 15 points (8 goals, 7 assists) in just 36 games. In 2014-15 he spent 31.2% with Miller on the other wing, 31.1% with Sheahan at center and the other 28.1% with Glendening at center... As far as I know, none of those three were our top scorers... And because of all that time spent on the 4th line, he struggled, only putting up 18 points (3 goals, 15 assists) in 63 games.

So far this season he has been with Tatar for 36.7%, Pulkkinen for 34.4% and Richards at center for 35.9%. Those are some decent linemates and to me, he looked good in the 4 games he played (aside from the game against Carolina).

Yes, Jurco did have a poor year last year, but even Pavel Datsyuk would struggle to put up points on a line with Glendening and Miller the majority of the season...

He absolutely was mishandled as a prospect. He needed more time in the American League and that was very evident in his play. Jurco will be fine, but people need to stop acting as if he's a bust at the age of 22, when given very little opportunity to prove anything at the NHL level. The kids got it, it's only a matter of time before he breaks out.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Buppy, I'm wrong? Where exactly are you getting this data that he spent all of this TOI with one the top scorers? Here's the data I've seen... In 2013-14 he spent 66.8% of his TOI centered by Sheahan and 57.1% with Tatar on the other wing. That was a very good half a season for the 20 year old Jurco, putting up 15 points (8 goals, 7 assists) in just 36 games. In 2014-15 he spent 31.2% with Miller on the other wing, 31.1% with Sheahan at center and the other 28.1% with Glendening at center... As far as I know, none of those three were our top scorers... And because of all that time spent on the 4th line, he struggled, only putting up 18 points (3 goals, 15 assists) in 63 games.

So far this season he has been with Tatar for 36.7%, Pulkkinen for 34.4% and Richards at center for 35.9%. Those are some decent linemates and to me, he looked good in the 4 games he played (aside from the game against Carolina).

Yes, Jurco did have a poor year last year, but even Pavel Datsyuk would struggle to put up points on a line with Glendening and Miller the majority of the season...

He absolutely was mishandled as a prospect. He needed more time in the American League and that was very evident in his play. Jurco will be fine, but people need to stop acting as if he's a bust at the age of 22, when given very little opportunity to prove anything at the NHL level. The kids got it, it's only a matter of time before he breaks out.

If they put Larkin beteen Mantha and Jurco, those 3 will light it up.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

He had played over 100 games in GR. Similar amount of time to what Helm, Abby, Nyquist, Sheahan, and Pulkkinen spent there.

All those players had additional pro-level or university level experience beyond their junior hockey:

Jurco: 106 AHL games over 2 seasons+nothing

Pulkkinen: 119 over 3 seasons + 4+ seasons with SM liiga (top finnish professional league)

Nyquist played 132 over 4 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

Abby: 109 over 2 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

Sheahan: 110 over 3 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

...except Helm, so I'll give you that one.

[krsmith17 7,191]

.... And Helm was a prototypical 4th liner entering the league. None of the other guys aside from Abdelkader were/are close to that, including Jurco. How do you think Nuquist would have fared if he were expected to play a 4th line grinding role when he entered the league?

[Bill Berzeench 310]

.... And Helm was a prototypical 4th liner entering the league. None of the other guys aside from Abdelkader were/are close to that, including Jurco. How do you think Nuquist would have fared if he were expected to play a 4th line grinding role when he entered the league?

He would suck. He sucks 5 on 5 in the top 6. He would suck worse 5 on 5 in the bottom 6.

[Buppy 1,720]

Buppy, I'm wrong? Where exactly are you getting this data that he spent all of this TOI with one the top scorers? Here's the data I've seen... In 2013-14 he spent 66.8% of his TOI centered by Sheahan and 57.1% with Tatar on the other wing. That was a very good half a season for the 20 year old Jurco, putting up 15 points (8 goals, 7 assists) in just 36 games. In 2014-15 he spent 31.2% with Miller on the other wing, 31.1% with Sheahan at center and the other 28.1% with Glendening at center... As far as I know, none of those three were our top scorers... And because of all that time spent on the 4th line, he struggled, only putting up 18 points (3 goals, 15 assists) in 63 games.

So far this season he has been with Tatar for 36.7%, Pulkkinen for 34.4% and Richards at center for 35.9%. Those are some decent linemates and to me, he looked good in the 4 games he played (aside from the game against Carolina).

Yes, Jurco did have a poor year last year, but even Pavel Datsyuk would struggle to put up points on a line with Glendening and Miller the majority of the season...

He absolutely was mishandled as a prospect. He needed more time in the American League and that was very evident in his play. Jurco will be fine, but people need to stop acting as if he's a bust at the age of 22, when given very little opportunity to prove anything at the NHL level. The kids got it, it's only a matter of time before he breaks out.

He played about 400 minutes combined 5v5 time with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, and Franzen. Another 70ish minutes on the PP. That's around 30% of his total ice time spent with the best scorers on the team. Another 430 minutes combined with Abby, Sheahan, Weiss, Pulkkinen, and Helm. That's another 30% spent with secondary scorers, often in combination with one of the top players. At the very least, he played just as much in a scoring role as he did in 13-14. At best you could say he stagnated in a scoring role while scoring zero points in a third of a season on the 4th line. Same 4th line role where the likes of Helm, Miller, Glendening, Eaves, Andersson, and Emmerton have managed to be at least modestly productive. If he produced at all from the 4th line, then you have to admit he regressed in a scoring role. Either way it was poor, and there's no way to spin it otherwise.

He had a poor year. It happens. Happens even to vets. Happens pretty often with young guys. There's no need to make excuses for it. It wasn't because he wasn't ready. Wasn't because he was misused, or mishandled. Doesn't mean he sucks. Doesn't mean he's lazy. Doesn't mean he won't improve. If someone wants to think he's a bust because of one moderately disappointing season, the only counter-argument needed is that he's 22 and has barely 100 games. Not some concocted and inaccurate excuses.

All those players had additional pro-level or university level experience beyond their junior hockey:

Jurco: 106 AHL games over 2 seasons+nothing

Pulkkinen: 119 over 3 seasons + 4+ seasons with SM liiga (top finnish professional league)

Nyquist played 132 over 4 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

Abby: 109 over 2 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

Sheahan: 110 over 3 seasons + 3 seasons of university hockey

...except Helm, so I'll give you that one.

Many people would probably argue that the quality in the CHL is as good or better than the NCAA. Maybe SM Liiga too, but most people probably don't know much about that league. Plenty of players around the league go from juniors to the NHL with less than two years in the AHL. It's not unusual, even for the Wings. It's also not unusual for young guys to struggle at first. Again, excuses aren't necessary.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Watching Excel sheets doesn't replace the game of hockey it just satisfies some math freaks. This annoying development will go away as fast as it came hockey is much faster than baseball and there are too many intangibles involved.

So who cares you either have work ethic and dedication to the and or you don't..

you either score or you don't...I don't need excel just basic logic

Are those damn math freaks confusing you again Frank? It's ok, you don't need excel. These stats are just a fad, completely useless hipster stuff. Might as well remove all stats, sv%, gaa, penalty minutes, toi, ppg, ppp, home vs. Away stats. It's all just useless stuff. Just let them play, and at the end of the game we could just award points to the team that we deem played the hardest using the good ol eyeball test. Math is for loozers

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Learn to freaking read I've said others like them but there is no damn need to shove them in people who don't care about that stuff , period. Also trying to use fatal fallacies won't change my stance on it. If you like them fine go create an all things advanced stats topic and keep the stuff there instead of trying to do it HFboards like where non advanced topics are borderline unreadable because some of the advanced crowd can't even find their own topic and spam normal ones with tons of graphics , formulas and what not.

Jurco hasn't shown a good enough work ethic and that's why he's down, period but hey go ahead and create tons of graphics and formulas to justify stuff like this.

Even the usual stats aren't telling the whole story someone could be held of the scoreboard and still have an amazing game by blocking a shot and changing the dynamics of the game with a huge open ice hit but hey excel can't tell you that so it's not advanced ...

Are those damn math freaks confusing you again Frank? It's ok, you don't need excel. These stats are just a fad, completely useless hipster stuff. Might as well remove all stats, sv%, gaa, penalty minutes, toi, ppg, ppp, home vs. Away stats. It's all just useless stuff. Just let them play, and at the end of the game we could just award points to the team that we deem played the hardest using the good ol eyeball test. Math is for loozers

Edited November 23, 2015 by frankgrimes

[Internet.Unknown 422]

If they put Larkin beteen Mantha and Jurco, those 3 will light it up.

Larkin + 2 players that can't yet make it in the NHL would "light it up." You've got one hell of a crystal ball ...or you've been lighting it up too.

[Buppy 1,720]

Learn to freaking read I've said others like them but there is no damn need to shove them in people who don't care about that stuff , period. Also trying to use fatal fallacies won't change my stance on it. If you like them fine go create an all things advanced stats topic and keep the stuff there instead of trying to do it HFboards like where non advanced topics are borderline unreadable because some of the advanced crowd can't even find their own topic and spam normal ones with tons of graphics , formulas and what not.

Jurco hasn't shown a good enough work ethic and that's why he's down, period but hey go ahead and create tons of graphics and formulas to justify stuff like this.

Even the usual stats aren't telling the whole story someone could be held of the scoreboard and still have an amazing game by blocking a shot and changing the dynamics of the game with a huge open ice hit but hey excel can't tell you that so it's not advanced ...

Um, that's exactly the kind of thing advanced stats can tell you. How players impact the game beyond the typical stats. Except instead of relying on imperfect perception and faulty memory, they rely on actually recording events.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Am I the only one that's pretty much fine with how we develop, and bring along, talent?