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rick zombo

Jurco on Conditioning Assignment in GRs

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Babcock ruined this kid and Blashill's trying to put him back together.

I totally agree with this post and wanted Babcock BASHCOCKED last year.

To me a good coach should put a young player in a position to succeed and exploits the NATURAL talent of the player. I never felt Babcock did that with ANY of the young players.

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Well I also thought Jobs was the best presenter in the IT world and still didn't buy any of his products because they're too limited and internet-focused for the stuff I need to do. Same with Babcock just because I think he is the best one in the game doesn't mean I have to agree with everything, right? I'm not interested in this new movement, according to that quote he is extremely interested fine but that doesn't change anything for me. I mean if you think someone is the best at something does it mean you have to agree with everything? I highly doubt that.

Part of what he did was impressive enough for me and to be honest I had no clue if he was pro- or anti this new movement. I also don't agree with him being much more PR involved since joining the Leafs which still doesn't take away from the fact, that I - and the team Canada braintrust seems to agree - think that he is the best coach in hockey.

Not comparable Frank. Steve Jobs being a good "presenter" and Apple products being a good fit for you are two different things.

Of course you don’t have to agree with everything Babcock says, but I don’t understand how you can say that he is the best in the world no questions asked, but also say you don’t agree with his coaching methods. If you think he uses inferior methods to coach, how can he be the best in your opinion? We are not talking a little thing here, or small decisions. Using advanced stats is a pretty big thing, and any coach that uses them is making a lot of decision based on them. You can’t have it both ways.

To me this would be like saying, "I think the New Jersey Devils had the best D in the league during the late 90's/early 2000's but I think the trap was a horrible defensive strategy." or "Ovechkin is the best player in the NHL no questions asked! But goal scoring is not that important and playmakers are MUCH more valuable".

Disagreeing with his stance on PR also has nothing to do with coaching as they have nothing to do with each other. Saying that you don't like his coaching methods, but also saying he is the best coach in hockey, that is a contradiction.

Advance stats are not going away Frank, and even the best of the best are using them. (not that I am saying Babcock is the best, I think he is one of the best).

They may not be for you Frank, and that is totally cool. But clearly there is something to them. It’s not a situation where its either “advanced stats” OR “eyeball test”. IMO any coach that is at the top of his game should be using both, and it appears that they are.

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Not comparable Frank. Steve Jobs being a good "presenter" and Apple products being a good fit for you are two different things.

Of course you don’t have to agree with everything Babcock says, but I don’t understand how you can say that he is the best in the world no questions asked, but also say you don’t agree with his coaching methods. If you think he uses inferior methods to coach, how can he be the best in your opinion? We are not talking a little thing here, or small decisions. Using advanced stats is a pretty big thing, and any coach that uses them is making a lot of decision based on them. You can’t have it both ways.

To me this would be like saying, "I think the New Jersey Devils had the best D in the league during the late 90's/early 2000's but I think the trap was a horrible defensive strategy." or "Ovechkin is the best player in the NHL no questions asked! But goal scoring is not that important and playmakers are MUCH more valuable".

Disagreeing with his stance on PR also has nothing to do with coaching as they have nothing to do with each other. Saying that you don't like his coaching methods, but also saying he is the best coach in hockey, that is a contradiction.

Advance stats are not going away Frank, and even the best of the best are using them. (not that I am saying Babcock is the best, I think he is one of the best).

They may not be for you Frank, and that is totally cool. But clearly there is something to them. It’s not a situation where its either “advanced stats” OR “eyeball test”. IMO any coach that is at the top of his game should be using both, and it appears that they are.

it may not have been the best analogy but I did the job. Like I've said till your quote I've had no clue about his stance on it. Also if you remember I was only one of the guys unhappy with how he handled Too too. I'm saying he is the best in the world based on his past success be it with Anaheim, the Wings or team Canada.

I mean I also think McLellan, Sutter, Q, Vigneault and Julien are great coaches yet I don't know what they are or aren't using. But I will say this I highly doubt Babcock is only using this new movement for his decisions

You would be surprised by how many people hated the Devils type of play but yet call their D the best. I mean people hated the 1-3-1 from Bouche too yet it worked so what? I mean it doesn't matter one bit what I or anyone else thinks of Babcocks methods whatever he has done and keeps on doing seems to work...right? Still it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. As long as Lamoriello is happy with the stuff he does Babs will be the coach and same goes for team Canada.

Yes they aren't for me and if they are for others it's fine with me but there really isn't any need to constantly shove them on people that just don't care about it. Like I've said try reading a few HF threads which are full with this stuff on a phone it flat out sucks and keep in mind the advanced crowd has a whole board their dedicated to them, so why not discuss this stuff only with like minded people? I mean some of us physicality fans have hockeyfights.com

I'm sure there is something like that for the advanced crowd too.

Ok, fine advanced stats aren't going away but they will never replace the eye test nor real scouting. I mean we've all seen were constant tweaking fixing things that aren't broken has led to... an inferior NHL product compared to 2000's and yes I know revenues are up but that has more to do with the explosion of the internet and HD TV.

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The flaw in your argument, Frank, is assuming that advanced stats and "the eye test" are different things. All of it is just information. Some information is more easily quantified and represented numerically, but it's still all just information. There is no competition between the two. More information is always better.

I understand you not wanting to see a bunch of graphs and tables, but if the information is relevant to the discussion then it belongs in the discussion, regardless of how much it may annoy you.

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There are 3 lies. Lies, damn lies, and stats. Even fancy stats don't tell the whole story.

As far as Jurco goes, I remember Blashill says nh Jurco needs to skate harder, not be able to skate harder. That implies an unwillingness to put forth necessary effort.

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Even fancy stats don't tell the whole story.

And no one's saying they do. Except maybe Ryan Lambert.

Really, though, there's nothing especially fancy about them. I find it kind of silly that people will rattle off a whole list of stats, but when it comes to asking, like, "Does a guy's team shoot the puck a lot when he's on the ice?" - "NO GET THAT DEVIL MATH AWAY FROM ME. WATCH THE GAME NERD. I BET YOU NEVER EVEN PLAYED THE GAME. HOCKEY CAN'T BE QUANTIFIED. EVERYONE KNOWS THIS."

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Dickie, here's a quote directly from Blashill... "It is ultimately being in elite shape so he can skate nonstop in a game. He is somebody who is going to be an effective player when he is able to go full-out at all times. That is what we have tried to work on with him."

Now, you can read that quote and think that he's not in "elite shape", doesn't "skate nonstop in games", or "go full-out at all times" because he's "lazy", or you can read that quote and think that maybe, just maybe, it has absolutely nothing to do with his work-ethic, and has everything to do with getting back into game shape after suffering a back injury that saw him miss time at the end of last season, bothered him through the offseason, and likely was still lingering through training camp and into this season...

Post #76 of this thread you said, "Speaking as someone who has back issues, they don't go away...", but yet you believe it is an "unwillingness to put forth necessary effort", not a nagging back injury?...

Jurco has an elite skillset, and from everything I've seen from him from his time in Saint John, to Grand Rapids, to Detroit he has shown great work-ethic and determination. He will be fine.

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Jurco is good. Lot of people going to be eating crow on here.

People acting like it would be some miracle for him to be a regular NHLer... Getting pretty ridiculous. I think he can step in and be a competent third liner and add a lot of size. Going forward with age he can move his way into the top six pretty easily, if not oh well. Hes already a third liner imo

Edited by joesuffP

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So these are tonight's forward lines.

Abdelkader-Zetterberg-Larkin

Richards-Datsyuk-Pulkkinen

Tatar-Sheahan-Nyquist

Miller-Glendening-Helm

Assuming that Jurco doesn't skate on the 4th line when he returns next week and everyone stays healthy, where does he play? Seriously?

You know better than that. It's hockey. People get hit. And we have small soft hobgoblins galore in the team. Something will open up. I hope. Jurco will Not be waived. That would be Bad.

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Well Sheahan doesn't provide any scoring. The only thing keeping him in the lineup is that he's a centre. Inserting Jurco for Sheahan would take a lot of line juggling but I think Sheahan is the most deserving of being scratched if we're trying to insert a scoring third liner onto the team

Edited by joesuffP

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It's going to be tough for him to crack that lineup for sure... This may not be popular with a lot of people but I'd bump Miller out. I know, it's not likely to happen but I wouldn't mind seeing something like this...

Abdelkader - Zetterberg - Nyquist

Larkin - Datsyuk - Pulkkinen

Tatar - Richards - Jurco

Sheahan - Glendening - Helm

I'm not anti-Miller by any stretch but he is very replaceable in the lineup and I'm hoping they lean toward not bringing him back after this season.\

He is one of our top penalty killers but plenty or guys can kill penalties. Glendening, Helm, Sheahan, Abdelkader, Richards, Larkin...

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People acting like it would be some miracle for him to be a regular NHLer... Getting pretty ridiculous. I think he can step in and be a competent third liner and add a lot of size. Going forward with age he can move his way into the top six pretty easily, if not oh well. Hes already a third liner imo

I feel the same way.

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You know better than that. It's hockey. People get hit. And we have small soft hobgoblins galore in the team. Something will open up. I hope. Jurco will Not be waived. That would be Bad.

Better than what? Everyone staying healthy? It was hypothetical.

Anyway, you just made your point. Jurco doesn't get in until someone gets hurt. That's how I feel too, because he's not cracking that line-up otherwise.

Also, these "hobgoblins" you refer to are currently 3 of this team's top 4 goal scorers (assuming you excluded Larkin). But hey, scoring goals is easy for this team.

I feel the same way.

Again, considering the 3rd line right now is Tatar - Sheahan - Nyquist, I'm not sure where Jurco fits.

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Better than what? Everyone staying healthy? It was hypothetical.

Anyway, you just made your point. Jurco doesn't get in until someone gets hurt. That's how I feel too, because he's not cracking that line-up otherwise.

Also, these "hobgoblins" you refer to are currently 3 of this team's top 4 goal scorers (assuming you excluded Larkin). But hey, scoring goals is easy for this team.

Again, considering the 3rd line right now is Tatar - Sheahan - Nyquist, I'm not sure where Jurco fits.

This lure is so attractive. I'm like a stupid bluegill right now!!!

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It's going to be tough for him to crack that lineup for sure... This may not be popular with a lot of people but I'd bump Miller out. I know, it's not likely to happen but I wouldn't mind seeing something like this...

Abdelkader - Zetterberg - Nyquist

Larkin - Datsyuk - Pulkkinen

Tatar - Richards - Jurco

Sheahan - Glendening - Helm

I'm not anti-Miller by any stretch but he is very replaceable in the lineup and I'm hoping they lean toward not bringing him back after this season.\

He is one of our top penalty killers but plenty or guys can kill penalties. Glendening, Helm, Sheahan, Abdelkader, Richards, Larkin...

More or less what I was thinking as well. I'd prefer Larkin at center, but Richards should work too. I thought the Shea-Glen-Helm line was good the few games it was together.

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Better than what? Everyone staying healthy? It was hypothetical.

Anyway, you just made your point. Jurco doesn't get in until someone gets hurt. That's how I feel too, because he's not cracking that line-up otherwise.

Also, these "hobgoblins" you refer to are currently 3 of this team's top 4 goal scorers (assuming you excluded Larkin). But hey, scoring goals is easy for this team.

Again, considering the 3rd line right now is Tatar - Sheahan - Nyquist, I'm not sure where Jurco fits.

Agreed. It is an upcoming problem. I have no solution. Krsmith's solution regarding Miller/Sheahan seems the best one to me right now. Still don't like it. Almost want to "ignore it".

Bottom line is I think Jurco has that "something". Don't wanna give him up. If we have to drop someone, Andersson or Miller has to be thrown out to the wolves. Not concerned about lineups at the moment my main concern is keeping that young chump Jurco in the organization. He needs a proper shot to dazzle.

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Agreed. It is an upcoming problem. I have no solution. Krsmith's solution regarding Miller/Sheahan seems the best one to me right now. Still don't like it. Almost want to "ignore it".

Bottom line is I think Jurco has that "something". Don't wanna give him up. If we have to drop someone, Andersson or Miller has to be thrown out to the wolves. Not concerned about lineups at the moment my main concern is keeping that young chump Jurco in the organization. He needs a proper shot to dazzle.

For the record, no one needs to be waived once Jurco comes back. Players on conditioning assignment are still part of the active roster. We only need to move someone when Quincey comes back, or if Franzen does.

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For the record, no one needs to be waived once Jurco comes back. Players on conditioning assignment are still part of the active roster. We only need to move someone when Quincey comes back, or if Franzen does.

It's true. Jurco still counts against the 23 man roster even though he's in GRs.

I imagine Andersson gets waived before Jurco if/when Quincey returns. Also, Marchenko is waiver exempt so he could always be sent to GRs.

I was never talking about "losing" Jurco, only questioning how he's going to crack the line-up. To do that, barring injuries, he has to outplay one of Sheahan, Richards, Pulkinnen, Nyquist, or Tatar. Can't see it.

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It's true. Jurco still counts against the 23 man roster even though he's in GRs.

I imagine Andersson gets waived before Jurco if/when Quincey returns. Also, Marchenko is waiver exempt so he could always be sent to GRs.

I was never talking about "losing" Jurco, only questioning how he's going to crack the line-up. To do that, barring injuries, he has to outplay one of Sheahan, Richards, Pulkinnen, Nyquist, or Tatar. Can't see it.

Thanks Buppy, I got Rick Zomboed - thought we had to drop someone once Jurco returns.

He will be competing against the bolded ones, given that Sheahan plays winger. If not not he's directly competing against hobgoblin pulk-cannon.

But the fact that he Can hang around makes me resume my main stance - injuries will happen, probably sooner than later, and he will find himself in a game. Hopefully he'll be decently placed in the lineup (not 4th).

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Well Sheahan doesn't provide any scoring. The only thing keeping him in the lineup is that he's a centre. Inserting Jurco for Sheahan would take a lot of line juggling but I think Sheahan is the most deserving of being scratched if we're trying to insert a scoring third liner onto the team

So, Sheahan scored more than Jurco in 2013-14. Sheahan scored more than Jurco in 2014-15. Sheahan has admittedly dropped off in scoring so far in 2015-16, but still has as many goals in 21 games as Jurco had in 63 games last season. And, as you mention, outside of scoring Sheahan is the more useful of the two when in the lineup because he can play center. But, Sheahan should be removed from the lineup and replaced with Jurco.... for more scoring?

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