All Purpose Grand Rapids Griffins Thread

[krsmith17 7,191]

34 minutes ago, solarion said:

If we do, it's Hronek and Sulak ...maybe Cholowski imo. The offensive production from the blueliners has been abysmal since #5 retired. Bizarre that some scream about the Green re-signing...the Wings would generate nearly nothing from the back end without him. Remove he and Kronwall from the roster and the Wings are dead last in the league in offense imo...even with decent forward lines.

It ain't for nuthin' KH takes a swing at every puck moving dman that hits the market. It's pretty obvious what this team needs to improve, just finding/signing those guys is a PITA.

Imma go watch tape of #5 now...dood was a freaking machine...

If any defensemen in our system have a chance to become a top pair defenseman, I'd say Cholowski and Hronek are the only one's close (at this point). I think Cholowski has a chance to become a solid all around defenseman, that can skate well and move the puck, similar to a Nick Leddy (or what I hoped Brendan Smith would become... ). I think Hronek has a chance to become an offensive defenseman, that can skate well and quarterback a power-play, similar to a Sami Vatanen. I'm not that high on Sulak. I don't think he'll ever become a regular NHLer, and if he does, I think he tops out as a bottom pair defenseman. Same goes for Saarijarvi for me.

[solarion 118]

Agree re: Sulak, he's pretty far down the depth chart, but stranger things have happened. Hronek and Cholo are pretty equal overall in my book, with an offensive edge to Hronek...plus he's got that right handed shot, so he likely has the edge over Cholo in the battle for a roster spot. It'll be interesting to see who sticks long term out of Jensen, Hicketts, Cholo, Hronek, and McIsaac.

Brendan...yeah, dude with every tool in the box, but rarely seems to choose the right tool at the right time. Bummer. Doubtful, but I still hope he figures it out same day...even though he's NY's problem now. Turning him into Gallant and Berggren was the right play.

Edited August 4, 2018 by solarion

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

So I guess you don't really believe in "number one" or "top pair" defensemen, and you think teams should be able to play defense by committee, and win with 4-5 very good defensemen? I'd agree with that, but the question then is, do we have enough high end defense prospects to make that happen? I'm not so sure...

If two defensemen in our system (Hronek, Saarijarvi, Lindstrom, Cholowski, McIsaac, other) can hit 35-50 points consistently I'd be thrilled. To say that all five will is a bit of a stretch though in my opinion. That would make them all "top pair" defensemen in today's NHL, based just on the raw numbers. We've only had two defensemen (Kronwall and Green) put up those point totals since Lidstrom retired (6 years ago)? Each did it twice. Kronwall had 49 points in 2013-14 and 44 points in 2014-15, and Green had 35 points in 2015-16 and 36 points in 2016-17. That means, not a single Red Wings defenseman hit 35 points this past season. Green was the closest with 33.

I don't think we need one 60+ point defenseman if we can have four 30-40 point defensemen or even two 40-50 point / two 10-20 point defensemen. However, I don't see any of that in our system right now... I certainly hope I'm wrong and we have a few guys that can exceed my expectations.

I see Hronek, Cholowski, and McIsaac as legit top 4 guys. None of them will be that elusive #1 elite defenseman, but  I think that at least one turns into a good 2D, which still leaves the other 2 as a formidable 2nd pair. Lindstrom might turn out to be a 2nd pair, but we can afford for him to be a #5. Saarajarvi will probably fall between a #5 - #7.

This isn't a bad thing. I wouldn't go after a Karlsson, for example, but someone of Faulk's caliber could be acquired. Considering the depth at center this team will have in a few years, and hopefully a plethora of young top 4 D, a trade could be made to acquire that #1D. Young center + young 2nd pair D + 1st round pick = #1D.

You'd still have two centers to fill your 1C and 2C spots, 2 legit top pair and 2 legit 2nd pair guys to round out your top 4 D. Rebuild done.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, if we're talking about through the course of the season, injuries are a certainly. However, if we're talking about the opening night roster, while injuries are likely in training camp / preseason (I can't remember the last time we didn't have at least one injury that early), they're certainly not a certainty. I have zero doubt that Zadina will play in Detroit this season, when the inevitable injuries occur, but I don't see a scenario where he starts the season in Detroit, unless there is an injury or trade prior to opening night on October 4th.

I didn't say that any of those players "can't be scratched", what I said was that none of those players should be "scratched for a large chunk of the season". Sure, if any player is dogging it in practice and / or games, scratch his ass for a game or two. However, if that happens, chances are you're not going to call a player (Zadina) up from Grand Rapids for one (or two) game(s) and send him back down again after. Again, if / when Zadina plays in Detroit, it's going to because of injury or trade, not in place of a Mantha, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, or even Glendening (unfortunately) for a game or two.

And I've already said, there's no scenario where that happens.

I think Zadina will be on the team the majority of the season, regardless of trades. But I'd also be completely content to let him play in GR.

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I see Hronek, Cholowski, and McIsaac as legit top 4 guys. None of them will be that elusive #1 elite defenseman, but I think that at least one turns into a good 2D, which still leaves the other 2 as a formidable 2nd pair. Lindstrom might turn out to be a 2nd pair, but we can afford for him to be a #5. Saarajarvi will probably fall between a #5 - #7.

This isn't a bad thing. I wouldn't go after a Karlsson, for example, but someone of Faulk's caliber could be acquired. Considering the depth at center this team will have in a few years, and hopefully a plethora of young top 4 D, a trade could be made to acquire that #1D. Young center + young 2nd pair D + 1st round pick = #1D.

You'd still have two centers to fill your 1C and 2C spots, 2 legit top pair and 2 legit 2nd pair guys to round out your top 4 D. Rebuild done.

I agree with all of this. However, I'd much rather draft that number one defenseman than trade for one, especially an established number one. We should have one more draft (maybe two) where we get a top 10 (maybe even top 3) pick, so there's a real possibility that we could draft a future number one in the next two years.

I still really want Dylan Cozens in next year's draft, but maybe Bowen Byram emerges as a future number one D in the next 11 months...

[kipwinger 8,524]

The problem I have with this notion of a true "number one" defenseman is that its typically defined as a sort of "do it all exceptionally well" defenseman.  Which is fine in theory, but so many guys who are given that title don't match the description.  Letang, Karlsson, Byfuglien, and Josi don't really play defense all that well. Trouba and Vlasic don't score much.  Kronwall was derided around here for not being a "number one" despite doing all the stuff a top defenseman is supposed to do, same with John Carlson. 

Given the way that term is tossed around, I expect only Doughty, Subban, Keith, Sutter, Weber, Pietrangelo, and Hedman even qualify (and even some of them have s***ty shot metrics).  Only two of them have a Cup.  So if that's true, it's really not as important as people seem to think it is. 

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

The problem I have with this notion of a true "number one" defenseman is that its typically defined as a sort of "do it all exceptionally well" defenseman.  Which is fine in theory, but so many guys who are given that title don't match the description.  Letang, Karlsson, Byfuglien, and Josi don't really play defense all that well. Trouba and Vlasic don't score much.  Kronwall was derided around here for not being a "number one" despite doing all the stuff a top defenseman is supposed to do, same with John Carlson. 

Given the way that term is tossed around, I expect only Doughty, Subban, Keith, Sutter, Weber, Pietrangelo, and Hedman even qualify (and even some of them have s***ty shot metrics).  Only two of them have a Cup.  So if that's true, it's really not as important as people seem to think it is. 

Not sure I agree that 1D is typically defined as a defenseman that does it all exceptionally well. I'd say it's closer to "Guy who puts up a lot of points and generally powers his team's offense, all while playing hard minutes against top talent every night." Something to that effect.

I like the idea that everyone has this whole defense thing wrong, that all you really need is three or four good top-four defensemen who can give you excellence-by-committee. But, whether it's true or not, I'd still want that legit 1D.

I think the problem with excellence-by-committee defense is that, by definition, you lack a gamebreaker on the back end. That's the kind of player you'd expect to neutralize or outmatch the opposition's gamebreaking talent in a tight best-of-seven series. Take that player away and your not-quite-a-1D-but-we-call-him-our-1D is probably going to have to step up, which probably means the other defensemen are going to have to step up, which probably means everyone's playing above their pay grade, which probably means you end up really wishing you had That Guy.

So, even if Hronek and Cholowski and Lindstrom and Saarijarvi all miraculously become very good top-four NHL defensemen (and it would be a miracle), I'd still want That Guy. I believe 1) team depth wins Cups, and 2) your team is only as deep as your top talent allows it to be.

[solarion 118]

The defense by committee concept probably only works, or at least works properly, if you're able to ice at least a couple lines of defensively sound forwards that can chip in with some solid back checks or cover up for some gaffs from your blueliners. We've all seen how exposed the Wings have been defensively without a guy like Lidstrom back there to make the occasional goal saving play look like just another day at the office. The blueline has been so bad in Detroit that even solid 2 way forwards can't cover all the holes and defensive breakdowns. It's only gotten worse without Datsyuk picking pockets and with Z getting older...and slower.

Edited August 6, 2018 by solarion

[kipwinger 8,524]

I didn't understand myself to be arguing in favor of a "defense by committee".  I specifically said I'd like as many defensemen as possible scoring between 35-50 pts.  My argument was basically that there are only a handful of "number one defensemen" in the league as most people would define one.  As such, saying that we don't have one in our prospect pool doesn't really bother me because most people don't have one in their prospect pool or on their team. 

[Dabura 12,207]

14 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I didn't understand myself to be arguing in favor of a "defense by committee".  I specifically said I'd like as many defensemen as possible scoring between 35-50 pts.

Fair enough. But when I read this...

On 8/3/2018 at 7:23 PM, kipwinger said:

In short, I don't care if we have a "true number one guy" because I think that notion overblown.  I'm far more concerned with modernizing our defense and I think we've got a lot of guys that can play modern defense effectively. 

...and I see that you believe Hronek, Saarijarvi, Cholowski, and maybe Lindstrom will be 35-50-point defensemen in the NHL...

On 8/3/2018 at 7:23 PM, kipwinger said:

I think Hronek, Saarijarvi, Cholo, and maybe Lindstrom will put up good point totals  (35 to 50 pts) in the NHL

...I think we're coming from different places re: how important a legit 1D is and what exactly constitutes a "modernized" defense group.

I agree that the Wings are consciously trying to build a decidedly "modern" defense group and that this is a good thing. However, I have a very hard time seeing all of Hronek, Saarijarvi, Cholowski becoming 35-50-point players. With a legit 1D, it's unlikely but possible. Without a legit 1D...I'm not seeing it.

Now, sure, one of those guys could be a future legit 1D. But I'm not counting on it. I think guys like Hronek and Cholowski are good but probably not good enough to excel as a designated top pairing against top talent. Realistically, if they become high-scoring NHL defensemen, it'll be because they're insulated by an elite defenseman who allows everyone to be slotted appropriately. So: I think the best shot they have at becoming 35-50-point players is as #2/3/4 defensemen slotted behind an elite, foundational defenseman who really owns that #1 spot and drives the bus.

[marcaractac 3,963]

The notion that Karlsson doesn't "match the description" of a number one dman is a bad take. 

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I thought I'd come in here to read about the Griffins, not #1D and Erik Karlsson.

Anyhow, I'd love to go see a bunch of Griffins games this season.  It could be some very good entertainment, maybe even more so than watching the Wings. Nice cheap prices too! Especially if they get Zadina and some other prospects in there.

[kipwinger 8,524]

6 hours ago, marcaractac said:

The notion that Karlsson doesn't "match the description" of a number one dman is a bad take. 

That's my point.  Any attempt to define "number one defenseman" inevitably leaves out someone obvious.  Erik Karlsson gets heavily sheltered minutes (60% offensive zone starts) and is never relied upon to defend again top competition.  So any definition of "number one defenseman" that involves actually playing defense must necessarily exclude him, which is absurd. 

Hence my original point...the notion of "number one defenseman", which everyone goes on and on about, is not as clear cut as one might think and leaves plenty of room for the prospect in our system.  Loads of people around here think Trouba is a number one defenseman because he's good defensively and plays big minutes, but he's not too good offensively.  I don't think it's unrealistic that Cholowski could scoring 35 pts. a year (more than Trouba ever has), play big minutes, and be good defensively against top competition.  Similarly, Kris Letang doesn't play defense but scores a lot, and he's also considered a top defenseman.  I don't think that's unrealistic for Hronek. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

That's my point.  Any attempt to define "number one defenseman" inevitably leaves out someone obvious.  Erik Karlsson gets heavily sheltered minutes (60% offensive zone starts) and is never relied upon to defend again top competition.  So any definition of "number one defenseman" that involves actually playing defense must necessarily exclude him, which is absurd. 

Hence my original point...the notion of "number one defenseman", which everyone goes on and on about, is not as clear cut as one might think and leaves plenty of room for the prospect in our system.  Loads of people around here think Trouba is a number one defenseman because he's good defensively and plays big minutes, but he's not too good offensively.  I don't think it's unrealistic that Cholowski could scoring 35 pts. a year (more than Trouba ever has), play big minutes, and be good defensively against top competition.  Similarly, Kris Letang doesn't play defense but scores a lot, and he's also considered a top defenseman.  I don't think that's unrealistic for Hronek. 

I think Trouba is a "top pair" defenseman, but he's not a legit "number one", yet, and probably won't ever be. Cholowski or Hronek could be 35+ point defensemen in this league some day, but as our top two defense prospects, they're going to need some help. Ideally, we'll get that defenseman in the next two drafts... 

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Does Erik Karlsson or Jake Trouba play for the Griffins?

Edited August 7, 2018 by LeftWinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

How I suspect the Griffs will likely look this season:

Rasmussen - Veleno - Zadina
Puempel - Turgeon - Svechnikov
Smith - Pearson - Terry
Elson - MacLeod - Pope
Ford

Cholowski - Kaski
Hicketts - Saarijarvi
Lashoff - Lindstrom
McIlrath

Pickard
Larsson

The top line (if it materializes) looks beastly and well balanced. Big intimidating dirty areas and net front guy + fast center who can drive play + lethal sniper.

Svech obviously needs to have a big season to return to relevancy. Kaski and Larsson should be exciting players to watch too.

 

[ely s 457]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

How I suspect the Griffs will likely look this season:

Rasmussen - Veleno - Zadina
Puempel - Turgeon - Svechnikov
Smith - Pearson - Terry
Elson - MacLeod - Pope
Ford

Cholowski - Kaski
Hicketts - Saarijarvi
Lashoff - Lindstrom
McIlrath

Pickard
Larsson

The top line (if it materializes) looks beastly and well balanced. Big intimidating dirty areas and net front guy + fast center who can drive play + lethal sniper.

Svech obviously needs to have a big season to return to relevancy. Kaski and Larsson should be exciting players to watch too.

 

I wouldn´t mind a lineup like this in GR but where is Seider playing and who will be the 4 missing fowards on the DRW roster? edit: Kuffner Hirose,Ehn and Mr X ?

Edited July 23, 2019 by ely s

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, ely s said:

I wouldn´t mind a lineup like this in GR but where is Seider playing and who will be the 4 missing fowards on the DRW roster? edit: Kuffner Hirose,Ehn and Mr X ?

Not sure where Seider is player yet, at least I haven't seen it announced yet what the team has decided. He seems ready for the AHL already, but I know his German coach said he expects him to play on Mannheim's top pair this coming season (and hopefully the power play too). I would be fine with him spending one more year in Germany doing this.

I expect Hirose, Kuffner, and Ehn will make the roster. With any of our 1st round picks being the #1 call up.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not sure where Seider is player yet, at least I haven't seen it announced yet what the team has decided. He seems ready for the AHL already, but I know his German coach said he expects him to play on Mannheim's top pair this coming season (and hopefully the power play too). I would be fine with him spending one more year in Germany doing this.

I expect Hirose, Kuffner, and Ehn will make the roster. With any of our 1st round picks being the #1 call up.

Big mistake.  No more Eurosize needed.  AHL or NHL.  Thats it.

[ely s 457]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not sure where Seider is player yet, at least I haven't seen it announced yet what the team has decided. He seems ready for the AHL already, but I know his German coach said he expects him to play on Mannheim's top pair this coming season (and hopefully the power play too). I would be fine with him spending one more year in Germany doing this.

I expect Hirose, Kuffner, and Ehn will make the roster. With any of our 1st round picks being the #1 call up.

I was more hoping for a Cholo/Seider #1 pairing. I think they can be a real dynamic duo. I am pretty sure that after the prospect tournament and training camp they don´t want to let him go back to Germany. If they send him back, they then have at least a good look on Tim Stützle as well.https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/348134/tim-stutzle he might be of interest for us, another 17 year old playing in Mannheim.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, ely s said:

I was more hoping for a Cholo/Seider #1 pairing. I think they can be a real dynamic duo. I am pretty sure that after the prospect tournament and training camp they don´t want to let him go back to Germany. If they send him back, they then have at least a good look on Tim Stützle as well.https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/348134/tim-stutzle he might be of interest for us, another 17 year old playing in Mannheim.

Oh god, Stutzle AND Seider?

The SS pairing?

Edited July 24, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[ely s 457]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh god, Stutzle AND Seider?

The SS pairing?

you should have your own comedy show...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, ely s said:

you should have your own comedy show...

In all seriousness, I would love to draft more German players if it makes sense for the team, especially if they've played in Mannheim with Seider.

German hockey seems to be at least trending upward for the time being. It could one day be a decent market for hockey players, and it's always surprised me that more Germans don't play what with some other nearby countries like Czech producing players.

If we could get  just a strong German D pairing going, I think that would create a lot more German Wing fans and maybe interest more young Germans to take up hockey in general after watching their countrymen have success together in the NHL.

Just a thought.

[ely s 457]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

In all seriousness, I would love to draft more German players if it makes sense for the team, especially if they've played in Mannheim with Seider.

German hockey seems to be at least trending upward for the time being. It could one day be a decent market for hockey players, and it's always surprised me that more Germans don't play what with some other nearby countries like Czech producing players.

If we could get  just a strong German D pairing going, I think that would create a lot more German Wing fans and maybe interest more young Germans to take up hockey in general after watching their countrymen have success together in the NHL.

Just a thought.

Stützle(17) is a  2 p/g LW against up to 4 years older competition in juniors, playing in the DEL the upcoming season.

Icehockey in Germany started to pick up in popularity after Krupp( I don´t like him that much, bighead...) and the drafting of Marco Sturm. We now get the first waves of that "boom". There happened a lot in the last years and I think we will see a continued growth. We had 4 first round picks so far from germany. Sturm,Draisaitl,Bokk and Seider. I´m not sure but I think Goc and Ehrhoff were firsts as well. So we are picking up...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, ely s said:

Stützle(17) is a  2 p/g LW against up to 4 years older competition in juniors, playing in the DEL the upcoming season.

Icehockey in Germany started to pick up in popularity after Krupp( I don´t like him that much, bighead...) and the drafting of Marco Sturm. We now get the first waves of that "boom". There happened a lot in the last years and I think we will see a continued growth. We had 4 first round picks so far from germany. Sturm,Draisaitl,Bokk and Seider. I´m not sure but I think Goc and Ehrhoff were firsts as well. So we are picking up...

Oh sorry, I thought Stutzle was a Dman. He's excelled everywhere it looks like. If Mo goes back to the fatherland he can recruit this kid for us.

DEL has some catching up to do. It would be good if they can get on par with the NLA.