LeonardSankar 434 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 Bottom line is we have nothing in our so called great system that's gonna take us to the next level e.g. the level of excellence where they used to be pre 2009 Stanley Cup finals. This is getting frustrating as we can't bring in the help like they did in 2001 b/c of the cap and our prospects are just decent at best. Aside from Larkin there is no hope anymore! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) Bottom line is we have nothing in our so called great system that's gonna take us to the next level e.g. the level of excellence where they used to be pre 2009 Stanley Cup finals. This is getting frustrating as we can't bring in the help like they did in 2001 b/c of the cap and our prospects are just decent at best. Aside from Larkin there is no hope anymore! Svetch and AA will be future centers with Larkin. They're good. Edited February 24, 2016 by kickazz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BottleOfSmoke 5,965 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 Cory Emerton was fast. Look where that landed him. DAMMIT MAN! Open your eyes and witness the glory of Frkdog! 3 TheXym, nawein and kickazz reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WingedWheel91 271 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 Bottom line is we have nothing in our so called great system that's gonna take us to the next level e.g. the level of excellence where they used to be pre 2009 Stanley Cup finals. This is getting frustrating as we can't bring in the help like they did in 2001 b/c of the cap and our prospects are just decent at best. Aside from Larkin there is no hope anymore! Who knows though - these guys are still so young. Larkin, Mantha, Anthanasiou, are all 21 or under... Throw in our teenagers like Svechnikov, Saarijarvi or our 1st round pick this year and ask yourself can any of these guys be superstars in 4/5 years (when they will all be 25 or younger)? Such a long time from now, it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StayClassy 38 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 I think they really need to get someone else who can play on a line with Dats and Z, if even for the very least to motivate Abdelkader. He’s pretty much being handed that position on a platter lately, and hasn’t done much to deserve it. Also I'm with those that say Nyqvist/Tatar have no chemistry together for whatever reason. Z-D-AA Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco Nyqvist-Larkin-Abdelkader Helm-Glendenning-Richards/Pulkinnen I don't think Richards has been BAD. However, think he could produce more come playoff time, and don't really care if he is in the lineup at this point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 That's why relying solely on the draft to build a team is silly. If yor first batch doesn't work you have to wait and see anther 5-10 years to see if the next one works and so on. We need a balanced draft-trade ratio to build a top team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaps80 1,591 Report post Posted February 24, 2016 I dunno why people complain about Richards. He's obv not his former self, but he came into this season coming off a 37 point regular season and 14 point playoff on the way to a cup. That's worth $3 million in the league these days easy. And he's only signed for one year. He's on pace for another 35-40 point season now, and he's been scratched a few games. He's doing fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Team Pos Games G A P G/G P/G WSH Top 3 169 74 97 171 0.438 1.012 CHI Top 3 183 78 106 184 0.426 1.005 DAL Top 3 183 80 99 179 0.437 0.978 LAK Top 3 171 56 79 135 0.327 0.789 STL Top 3 183 61 73 134 0.333 0.732 TBL Top 3 177 60 66 126 0.339 0.712 NYR Top 3 179 59 66 125 0.330 0.698 FLA Top 3 174 42 81 123 0.241 0.707 DET Top 3 166 43 72 115 0.259 0.693 Average 176.11 61.44 82.11 143.56 0.348 0.814 FLA Next 3 161 52 55 107 0.323 0.665 WSH Next 3 166 50 61 111 0.301 0.669 DAL Next 3 177 43 50 93 0.243 0.525 DET Next 3 182 44 53 97 0.242 0.533 NYR Next 3 153 36 55 91 0.235 0.595 CHI Next 3 177 39 53 92 0.220 0.520 LAK Next 3 174 30 53 83 0.172 0.477 STL Next 3 162 27 55 82 0.167 0.506 TBL Next 3 165 26 52 78 0.158 0.473 Average 168.56 38.56 54.11 92.67 0.229 0.551 TBL Depth 336 47 63 110 0.140 0.327 WSH Depth 336 44 64 108 0.131 0.321 FLA Depth 305 41 49 90 0.134 0.295 DAL Depth 367 46 65 111 0.125 0.302 NYR Depth 368 46 63 109 0.125 0.296 DET Depth 336 38 50 88 0.113 0.262 LAK Depth 335 36 40 76 0.107 0.227 CHI Depth 265 28 30 58 0.106 0.219 STL Depth 346 31 37 68 0.090 0.197 Average 332.67 39.67 51.22 90.89 0.119 0.272 FLA 4-14 466 93 104 197 0.200 0.423 WSH 4-14 502 94 125 219 0.187 0.436 DAL 4-14 544 89 115 204 0.164 0.375 NYR 4-14 521 82 118 200 0.157 0.384 DET 4-14 518 82 103 185 0.158 0.357 TBL 4-14 501 73 115 188 0.146 0.375 CHI 4-14 442 67 83 150 0.152 0.339 LAK 4-14 509 66 93 159 0.130 0.312 STL 4-14 508 58 92 150 0.114 0.295 Average 501.22 78.22 105.33 183.56 0.156 0.366 DAL Defense 350 28 108 136 0.080 0.389 CHI Defense 318 27 94 121 0.085 0.381 LAK Defense 334 33 91 124 0.099 0.371 NYR Defense 354 28 92 120 0.079 0.339 STL Defense 358 26 84 110 0.073 0.307 WSH Defense 336 21 100 121 0.063 0.360 DET Defense 337 23 71 94 0.068 0.279 TBL Defense 370 26 77 103 0.070 0.278 FLA Defense 338 21 62 83 0.062 0.246 Average 343.89 25.89 86.56 112.44 0.075 0.328 Comparison between us and the 8 teams with more points than us (as of last night). Limited to players with 15 or more games, so it's possible I missed someone, but I didn't want to skew the per game numbers. Top 3, Next 3, and Depth are forwards (1-3, 4-6, and 7-14 in points, respectively). 4-14 is Next 3 and Depth combined. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 This isn't a surprise and many of us have been talking about it for years. If you draft 20th every year in time you will have the 20th best talent. That is where we are heading. As of today we are 30-31. 30 wins, 20 loses and 11 OTL. We are sub .500. We lack F's that can plug up the crease and Dmen that can clear the crease. The worst part is Holland will not make trades. He has been on a plug and patch path for the last 5-6 years. Meanwhile we have lost HOF caliber players and not replaced them. Right now there are only 5 players in the entire organization that I wouldn't trade: Larkin, Dekeyser, Mrazek, Svechnikov (spelling) and Mantha. That is it. Everyone else could be moved in the right deal. Of course nothing will happen other than resigning more average players to long term deals instead of going after big fish. 1 cdjen reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdjen 21 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 This isn't a surprise and many of us have been talking about it for years. If you draft 20th every year in time you will have the 20th best talent. That is where we are heading. As of today we are 30-31. 30 wins, 20 loses and 11 OTL. We are sub .500. We lack F's that can plug up the crease and Dmen that can clear the crease. The worst part is Holland will not make trades. He has been on a plug and patch path for the last 5-6 years. Meanwhile we have lost HOF caliber players and not replaced them. Right now there are only 5 players in the entire organization that I wouldn't trade: Larkin, Dekeyser, Mrazek, Svechnikov (spelling) and Mantha. That is it. Everyone else could be moved in the right deal. Of course nothing will happen other than resigning more average players to long term deals instead of going after big fish. That has been my point for the last few years. We have not had a high draft pick for the last 20 some years; Larkin was #15, an exception this year and even so, this year there were many excellent picks that are better than Larkin starting with McDavid, Panarin, Domi, Eichel. In the past we were lucky to get excellent players in the 100 picks and down however now the other teams are also eyeing the Swedes and Russians so the likes of Dats, Z, Lidstrom and so many more are not there any longer. GR is loaded with with average players that have heart but are not going to save the Wings in the near future. We must hit the bottom before we become elites once more. But let's not forget that there are plenty of cities that envy us even now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son of a Wing 1,644 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 This isn't a surprise and many of us have been talking about it for years. If you draft 20th every year in time you will have the 20th best talent. That is where we are heading. As of today we are 30-31. 30 wins, 20 loses and 11 OTL. We are sub .500. We lack F's that can plug up the crease and Dmen that can clear the crease. The worst part is Holland will not make trades. He has been on a plug and patch path for the last 5-6 years. Meanwhile we have lost HOF caliber players and not replaced them. Right now there are only 5 players in the entire organization that I wouldn't trade: Larkin, Dekeyser, Mrazek, Svechnikov (spelling) and Mantha. That is it. Everyone else could be moved in the right deal. Of course nothing will happen other than resigning more average players to long term deals instead of going after big fish. Please explain this to me. Better yet, explain it to Edmonton. 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Please explain this to me. Better yet, explain it to Edmonton. Simple, their talent hasn't been developed. That is on the coaching and GM for not getting their very talented young players the help they need. There are reasons why every league does a reverse order draft-to create parity. Yes there are guys that over perform their draft postions just as their are guys that become busts. But the law of averages evens all of that out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Berzeench 310 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 DAMMIT MAN! Open your eyes and witness the glory of Frkdog! I christen him "Mother Frker". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Simple, their talent hasn't been developed. That is on the coaching and GM for not getting their very talented young players the help they need. There are reasons why every league does a reverse order draft-to create parity. Yes there are guys that over perform their draft postions just as their are guys that become busts. But the law of averages evens all of that out. I would think by now the Wings have squashed this. Of course the higher you pick, the better chances of grabbing a stud, but how many guys do the Wings have to develop into stars from low picks for people to realize that having high picks isnt the only way to go. In the NFL, NE does the exact same thing, they trade away first rounders, and draft multiple times in the second round etc. If you draft and develop properly, you dont need high picks. Ill use the 2008 draft as an example of how a high pick does not equal superstar: Pick 1,2, and 4 are studs, but nobody else in the top 14 is one. Then you have Karlsson at 15, Eberle at 22, and Carlson at 27. 3 studs in the top half, 1 right in the middle, and 2 in the bottom half. Not to mention, now its even harder to be guaranteed the top pick with the lottery rule changes. 1 Steven Stamkos © 2 Drew Doughty (D) 3 Zach Bogosian (D) 4 Alex Pietrangelo (D) 5 Luke Schenn (D) 6 Nikita Filatov (LW) 7 Colin Wilson © 8 Mikkel Boedker (LW) 9 Josh Bailey © 10 Cody Hodgson © 11 Kyle Beach (LW) 12 Tyler Myers (D) 13 Colten Teubert (D) 14 Zach Boychuk © 15 Erik Karlsson (D) 16 Joe Colborne (LW) 17 Jake Gardiner (D) 18 Chet Pickard (G) 19 Luca Sbisa (D) 20 Michael Del Zotto (D) 21 Anton Gustafsson © 22 Jordan Eberle (RW) 23 Tyler Cuma (D) Canada 24 Mattias Tedenby (LW) 25 Greg Nemisz (RW) 26 Tyler Ennis (LW) 27 John Carlson (D) 28 Viktor Tikhonov (RW) 29 Daultan Leveille © 30 Thomas McCollum (G) 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son of a Wing 1,644 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 I would think by now the Wings have squashed this. Of course the higher you pick, the better chances of grabbing a stud, but how many guys do the Wings have to develop into stars from low picks for people to realize that having high picks isnt the only way to go. In the NFL, NE does the exact same thing, they trade away first rounders, and draft multiple times in the second round etc. If you draft and develop properly, you dont need high picks. Ill use the 2008 draft as an example of how a high pick does not equal superstar: Pick 1,2, and 4 are studs, but nobody else in the top 14 is one. Then you have Karlsson at 15, Eberle at 22, and Carlson at 27. 3 studs in the top half, 1 right in the middle, and 2 in the bottom half. Not to mention, now its even harder to be guaranteed the top pick with the lottery rule changes. 1 Steven Stamkos © 2 Drew Doughty (D) 3 Zach Bogosian (D) 4 Alex Pietrangelo (D) 5 Luke Schenn (D) 6 Nikita Filatov (LW) 7 Colin Wilson © 8 Mikkel Boedker (LW) 9 Josh Bailey © 10 Cody Hodgson © 11 Kyle Beach (LW) 12 Tyler Myers (D) 13 Colten Teubert (D) 14 Zach Boychuk © 15 Erik Karlsson (D) 16 Joe Colborne (LW) 17 Jake Gardiner (D) 18 Chet Pickard (G) 19 Luca Sbisa (D) 20 Michael Del Zotto (D) 21 Anton Gustafsson © 22 Jordan Eberle (RW) 23 Tyler Cuma (D) Canada 24 Mattias Tedenby (LW) 25 Greg Nemisz (RW) 26 Tyler Ennis (LW) 27 John Carlson (D) 28 Viktor Tikhonov (RW) 29 Daultan Leveille © 30 Thomas McCollum (G) Law of averages dude.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Law of averages dude.. Exactly my point. All these kids are good, but some are going to be busts, some are going to be studs,and some are going to be alright. It really is law of averages. This goes back to my original point that the most important part of draft isn't "draft order", it is development of the prospects that you draft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 You're more likely to get an elite player in the first 5 picks than anywhere else, especially a forward. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 You're more likely to get an elite player in the first 5 picks than anywhere else, especially a forward. I don't think anyone is disputing that there is a higher probability to pick an elite player the higher you pick. My point is that its not a guarantee and that development is more important then simply having high picks. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) I don't think anyone is disputing that there is a higher probability to pick an elite player the higher you pick. My point is that its not a guarantee and that development is more important then simply having high picks. Development is important, but you're not going to develop Corey Emmerton into Jonathan Tavares no matter how well your organization takes care of the prospects. To get a player like that you need to either draft high or get lucky and have a player exceed expectations. There's a reason most of the Cup winners the last 25 years were built around guys who were top 5 picks. Edited February 25, 2016 by DickieDunn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
13dangledangle 952 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Development is important, but you're not going to develop Corey Emmerton into Jonathan Tavares no matter how well your organization takes care of the prospects. To get a player like that you need to either draft high or get lucky and have a player exceed expectations. There's a reason most of the Cup winners the last 25 years were built around guys who were top 5 picks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Development is important, but you're not going to develop Corey Emmerton into Jonathan Tavares no matter how well your organization takes care of the prospects. To get a player like that you need to either draft high or get lucky and have a player exceed expectations. There's a reason most of the Cup winners the last 25 years were built around guys who were top 5 picks. An Emmerton reference....interesting lol. If you take two extreme's after the fact, yes that looks silly but that can go both ways. In 1998 Datsyuk was taken 171st overall, David Legwand was taken second overall. Does this mean it is better to pick lower? Of course not. The higher you pick the increased probability you have in drafting a star, but a star can be found anywhere in the draft if you scout well and you develop properly. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Detroit got lucky with Datsyuk. Nobody believed he'd be close to this good, not even the scouts. He was projected as a potential second line center, iirc his biggest issues were strength and skating. He worked hard and improved both and turned out to be a star. He could have jast as easily never seen a second of ice te in North America. The other difference between them and now is that teams are all scouting Europe a lot heavier and guys like that are being taken earlier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,789 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 The Wings have always had balanced scoring. Even during the late 90's and 2000's when this team was actually good. We haven't typically seen our guys finish high in the league leaders category. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 The Wings have always had balanced scoring. Even during the late 90's and 2000's when this team was actually good. We haven't typically seen our guys finish high in the league leaders category. That's mostly because Bowman and Babcock were very defensive minded coaches who wanted their star players to play on both ends of the ice. If allowed to float I'm sure a lot of our top players would have had higher scoring rates Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Berzeench 310 Report post Posted February 25, 2016 Yzerman floated for 11 years and lit it up. Then he almost got traded. Then he committed to playing defense and became a hero. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites