Jagr ties Howe

[toby91_ca 620]

So, Jagr picked up a point last night to pull into a tie with Howe at 1,850 points, becoming only the 4th player in history to reach that level, along with Gretzky, Messier and Howe. I want to say he's done it quietly, but he's had all sorts of accolades, but I can't help but think he's never been thought of as one of the all-time greats, like the other 3....perhaps underrated?

Anyway, funny part, how old were each when they scored their 1,850th point?

Howe - 52 (but he was out of the NHL for a long while before coming back....so it really would have been 43)

Jagr - 44 (but he was out of the NHL for a few years, so really would have been 41 perhaps)

Messier - 42

Gretzky - 28

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

It's an impressive accomplishment, for sure. Funny, but I've never thought of Messier or Francis as five of the best scorers ever, even thought I know they rank that way. So I've never put that much stock in this particular list.

I wonder how many points Jagr would have scored had he come into the league in the early 80's?

Edited March 4, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[Bill Berzeench 310]

It's an impressive accomplishment, for sure. Funny, but I've never thought of Messier or Francis as five of the best scorers ever, even thought I know they rank that way. So I've never put that much stock in this particular list.

I wonder how many points Jagr would have scored had he come into the league in the early 80's?

Baseball has it's steroids era. Hockey has its Empty Net era. Gretzky gobbled up his points due to the goalie pads being 6 inches wide, the goalie jerseys being size 48s, and the goalies being 5'10" and standing up. Gretzky would be no better than Sidney Crosby in today's NHL at any point of his career. He'd probably lift weights and train to keep up with the times, but he would not score 100 pts in 2016. Forget about 200.

[Buppy 1,720]

Baseball has it's steroids era. Hockey has its Empty Net era. Gretzky gobbled up his points due to the goalie pads being 6 inches wide, the goalie jerseys being size 48s, and the goalies being 5'10" and standing up. Gretzky would be no better than Sidney Crosby in today's NHL at any point of his career. He'd probably lift weights and train to keep up with the times, but he would not score 100 pts in 2016. Forget about 200.

Wouldn't be hitting 200 I agree, but he was way better than everyone else in that era. I'd say he would have been leading the league in any era.

And yeah, Jagr has probably not gotten the recognition he deserves, most likely for being overshadowed by Lemieux and not winning any Cups at his peak. But he certainly is among the all-time greats.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Wouldn't be hitting 200 I agree, but he was way better than everyone else in that era. I'd say he would have been leading the league in any era.

And yeah, Jagr has probably not gotten the recognition he deserves, most likely for being overshadowed by Lemieux and not winning any Cups at his peak. But he certainly is among the all-time greats.

Interesting. Do you think he'd be doing what Crosby and Ovechkin are doing over the last 5-10 years? I don't feel the same. I think Gretzky would need to add a lot of weight to play in today's NHL. That might hinder him.

[kickazz 5,459]

Baseball has it's steroids era. Hockey has its Empty Net era. Gretzky gobbled up his points due to the goalie pads being 6 inches wide, the goalie jerseys being size 48s, and the goalies being 5'10" and standing up. Gretzky would be no better than Sidney Crosby in today's NHL at any point of his career. He'd probably lift weights and train to keep up with the times, but he would not score 100 pts in 2016. Forget about 200.

So do you think Wayne Gretzky is overrated?

[Buppy 1,720]

Interesting. Do you think he'd be doing what Crosby and Ovechkin are doing over the last 5-10 years? I don't feel the same. I think Gretzky would need to add a lot of weight to play in today's NHL. That might hinder him.

If Gretzky had been born in this era, all his training, practice, workout routines, etc would have been different.

There was allot more to Gretzky than natural talent and s***ty goaltending. It was practice, dedication, and intelligence.

So yeah, I think he would be doing what Crosby and Ovie have been doing, and more.

[toby91_ca 620]

Sorry, but I agree, using the high scoring 80s era as an argument as to why Gretzky isn't as good as people think is a dumb argument. Perhaps his point totals wouldn't be as high, but he's at like 1,000pts more than #2 on the list, he was outscoring #2 by 90pts a year in some seasons.

[HadThomasVokounOnFortSt 878]

Just waiting for the guy to brake a hip or something.

[kickazz 5,459]

Just waiting for the guy to brake a hip or something.

I mean he's 44 years old not 82 years old.. 44 is considered pretty young in this world. Hips don't break till.. well till you're actually old.

Edited March 4, 2016 by kickazz

[Bill Berzeench 310]

So do you think Wayne Gretzky is overrated?

No. He was phenominal. The sport is just different now. If you place a 5'11" 175 lb ultra talented guy with above average skating skill and Godly puck passing skill/ice vision in today's NHL, he's still going to do well. At least until his back breaks.

[kliq 3,755]

Here is the scoring leaders from 1985-86

1. Wayne Gretzky*-EDM 215

2. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 141

3. Paul Coffey*-EDM 138

4. Jari Kurri*-EDM 131

5. Mike Bossy*-NYI 123

6. Peter Stastny*-QUE 122

Say what you want about it being easier to score, the fact of the matter is that Gretzky had 52% more points then the person in second place. Crosby or Ovie or Kane etc. are NEVER going to do that. I get the argument about total points, but there is no argument about how much better he was in comparison to his peers.

You could literally erase every goal he ever scored in his career, and he still would be #1 all time in points as he has more assists then Messier has points who is ranked #2 all time.

Congrats to Jagr! too bad he left the NHL for those 3 years. Would have been nice to see what he could have done. One of the greatest players of all time.

No. He was phenominal. The sport is just different now. If you place a 5'11" 175 lb ultra talented guy with above average skating skill and Godly puck passing skill/ice vision in today's NHL, he's still going to do well. At least until his back breaks.

You know Patrick Kane is 5' 11" and 177 lbs, right?

Edited March 5, 2016 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

You know Patrick Kane is 5' 11" and 177 lbs, right?

He'll do well until his back breaks!

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Here is the scoring leaders from 1985-86

1. Wayne Gretzky*-EDM 215

2. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 141

3. Paul Coffey*-EDM 138

4. Jari Kurri*-EDM 131

5. Mike Bossy*-NYI 123

6. Peter Stastny*-QUE 122

Say what you want about it being easier to score, the fact of the matter is that Gretzky had 52% more points then the person in second place. Crosby or Ovie or Kane etc. are NEVER going to do that. I get the argument about total points, but there is no argument about how much better he was in comparison to his peers.

You could literally erase every goal he ever scored in his career, and he still would be #1 all time in points as he has more assists then Messier has points who is ranked #2 all time.

Congrats to Jagr! too bad he left the NHL for those 3 years. Would have been nice to see what he could have done. One of the greatest players of all time.

You know Patrick Kane is 5' 11" and 177 lbs, right?

Ask Zetterberg.

[kliq 3,755]

Ask Zetterberg.

I did, Zetterberg responded "I am 6'0, 195 lbs"

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8468083

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Jagr is the 4th best winger in hockey history. Don't know how he can surpass Howe, Richard and Hull, though.

[kliq 3,755]

Jagr is the 4th best winger in hockey history. Don't know how he can surpass Howe, Richard and Hull, though.

Its so hard to compare to the guys of that generation (I assume you are talking Bobby not Brett) as its a completely different world now. When ranking players, you almost have to rank them Original 6 era and Modern Era.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Be careful, dude. I've received suspensions on here for much less. I could care less if you insult me or my brain power withOUT any reasoning, but it seems to be frowned upon to do that.

What part of my argument do you not like?

Interesting. Do you think he'd be doing what Crosby and Ovechkin are doing over the last 5-10 years? I don't feel the same. I think Gretzky would need to add a lot of weight to play in today's NHL. That might hinder him.

Careful of what? Your argument supports nothing which is why I called it as is.

If Gretzky wasn't that great in the 80's and was fortunate of "empy net goals" why did no one else come close to doing what he did? Why was he outscoring everyone and setting records if the league was so easy. If half the league was doing what he did in the 80's then you would have a point but they weren't. He had elite vision, and hockey sense that would dominate in any era.

Here is the scoring leaders from 1985-86

1. Wayne Gretzky*-EDM 215

2. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 141

3. Paul Coffey*-EDM 138

4. Jari Kurri*-EDM 131

5. Mike Bossy*-NYI 123

6. Peter Stastny*-QUE 122

Say what you want about it being easier to score, the fact of the matter is that Gretzky had 52% more points then the person in second place. Crosby or Ovie or Kane etc. are NEVER going to do that. I get the argument about total points, but there is no argument about how much better he was in comparison to his peers.

You could literally erase every goal he ever scored in his career, and he still would be #1 all time in points as he has more assists then Messier has points who is ranked #2 all time.

Congrats to Jagr! too bad he left the NHL for those 3 years. Would have been nice to see what he could have done. One of the greatest players of all time.

You know Patrick Kane is 5' 11" and 177 lbs, right?

Exactly my point I am trying to make. Great post.

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

mild annoyance/

I don't understand why both points aren't valid, and one or the other gets s*** on. They're both valid points. Was Gretzky far and away the most talented hockey player in the history of the universe? Yep. But I still think it's valid to point out that he played in a very different era. Would he still be the best hockey player if he were playing now as Prime Gretzky ? Yep. But he would have fewer points. Still more than everyone else? Yep. But it's not necessarily a "dumb argument" (compelling discussion tactic, btw) to point out that the game is *vastly different* now than it was then, or that this would have impacted Gretzky's production.

/mild annoyance

But congrats to Jagr, he got on that list for grinding it out over the years. The guy loves the game, here's to playing until he's 50. Maybe he'll be the first player to wear EVERY SWEATER

Edited March 5, 2016 by BottleOfSmoke

[Bill Berzeench 310]

mild annoyance/

I don't understand why both points aren't valid, and one or the other gets s*** on. They're both valid points. Was Gretzky far and away the most talented hockey player in the history of the universe? Yep. But I still think it's valid to point out that he played in a very different era. Would he still be the best hockey player if he were playing now as Prime Gretzky ? Yep. But he would have fewer points. Still more than everyone else? Yep. But it's not necessarily a "dumb argument" (compelling discussion tactic, btw) to point out that the game is *vastly different* now than it was then, or that this would have impacted Gretzky's production.

/mild annoyance

But congrats to Jagr, he got on that list for grinding it out over the years. The guy loves the game, here's to playing until he's 50. Maybe he'll be the first player to wear EVERY SWEATER

Exactly. And is it really far fetched to say that Gretzky's scoring would go down if he was playing against 6'5" butterfly style goalies instead of 5'10" stand up goalies? No.

Ovechkin will break Gretzky's all time goals record. To me, that is an outstanding feat, considering he's doing it in the dead puck era of hockey.

[Buppy 1,720]

mild annoyance/

I don't understand why both points aren't valid, and one or the other gets s*** on. They're both valid points. Was Gretzky far and away the most talented hockey player in the history of the universe? Yep. But I still think it's valid to point out that he played in a very different era. Would he still be the best hockey player if he were playing now as Prime Gretzky ? Yep. But he would have fewer points. Still more than everyone else? Yep. But it's not necessarily a "dumb argument" (compelling discussion tactic, btw) to point out that the game is *vastly different* now than it was then, or that this would have impacted Gretzky's production.

/mild annoyance

But congrats to Jagr, he got on that list for grinding it out over the years. The guy loves the game, here's to playing until he's 50. Maybe he'll be the first player to wear EVERY SWEATER

Except that's not even close to what was said. Go back and look at Bill's first post. What you're saying is what everyone arguing against Bill is saying.

Exactly. And is it really far fetched to say that Gretzky's scoring would go down if he was playing against 6'5" butterfly style goalies instead of 5'10" stand up goalies? No.

Ovechkin will break Gretzky's all time goals record. To me, that is an outstanding feat, considering he's doing it in the dead puck era of hockey.

Average goals per game during Gretzky's career: About 3.5

Average goals per game during Crosby's/Ovechkin's career: About 2.8

Not as dramatic a difference as it's often made out to be. About 25% higher. Gretzky averaged about 142 points per year for 20 years. Nearly 2 points per game. Adjusted for era that's still about 113/114 points per year. 1.5 per game. Average. Over 20 years. At 36/37 yo, he scored 90 points in a season where scoring was lower than any year Crosby or Ovie have played. Crosby and Ovie have averaged 90-ish points, 1.32 and 1.16 per game, and neither has yet reached their declining years.

Highly unlikely that Ovie catches Gretzky's goals. Maybe adjusted for era, since he's more of a pure goal scorer. But he still needs 200 more goals to do even that.

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

Except that's not even close to what was said. Go back and look at Bill's first post. What you're saying is what everyone arguing against Bill is saying

I didn't make it that far, and I wasn't responding directly to Bill but more of a general statement on what frequently comes up when discussing Gretzky. I saw "lolzorz dumb argument" (creative license taken as to how it was heard in my head) and posted. Saying something is dumb and not contributing to the discussion as to *why* it's dumb is a pet peeve of mine.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Except that's not even close to what was said. Go back and look at Bill's first post. What you're saying is what everyone arguing against Bill is saying.

Average goals per game during Gretzky's career: About 3.5

Average goals per game during Crosby's/Ovechkin's career: About 2.8

Not as dramatic a difference as it's often made out to be. About 25% higher. Gretzky averaged about 142 points per year for 20 years. Nearly 2 points per game. Adjusted for era that's still about 113/114 points per year. 1.5 per game. Average. Over 20 years. At 36/37 yo, he scored 90 points in a season where scoring was lower than any year Crosby or Ovie have played. Crosby and Ovie have averaged 90-ish points, 1.32 and 1.16 per game, and neither has yet reached their declining years.

Highly unlikely that Ovie catches Gretzky's goals. Maybe adjusted for era, since he's more of a pure goal scorer. But he still needs 200 more goals to do even that.

Ovie will be the NHL's first 1,000 goal scorer.

[kliq 3,755]

Ovie will be the NHL's first 1,000 goal scorer.

I don't believe for a second you think this lol, you clearly are trying to get a reaction. From a person who thinks 28 is over the hill, you are now saying that a 30 year old is going to get 484 goals between the age of 30-40. That's 48.4 goals per year, for the next 10 years straight.

At least keep your trolling believable

[barabbas16 499]

Here is the scoring leaders from 1985-86

1. Wayne Gretzky*-EDM 215

2. Mario Lemieux*-PIT 141

3. Paul Coffey*-EDM 138

4. Jari Kurri*-EDM 131

5. Mike Bossy*-NYI 123

6. Peter Stastny*-QUE 122

Say what you want about it being easier to score, the fact of the matter is that Gretzky had 52% more points then the person in second place. Crosby or Ovie or Kane etc. are NEVER going to do that. I get the argument about total points, but there is no argument about how much better he was in comparison to his peers.

....yeah, but who's ever heard of those other clowns he beat?