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Richdg

Fixing this mess....

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I would really love to see holland go. There is too much nostalgia and "loyalty" floating around right now. We need someone impartial to turn what aging guys we have left into assets for the future rather than losing them for nothing when the back wheels fall off. The roster and organization needs a culture change - I'm not saying everything needs to change - but this attitude of simply making the playoffs and no sense of desperation to win is trash.

Same, not fired but moving into a more managerial role like Burke did in Calgary. Imagine what Don Maloney could do with a blank check.

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I really don't mind all the talk about Holland being fired or being told to move on. My question is, if he does move on, who do we replace him with that is as good or better? There is no one on the market right now that I would go with that is really coming to mind as a clear upgrade. Why make a downgrade at the GM position strictly for the sake of making a move?


Part of the problem with us trying unload these underperforming players is that we (the Wings fans) are not the only ones around that see that they're underperforming..... :confused:

This right here. Many people say to just unload Pulk, Smith, and so on. These under performing players aren't going anywhere because other teams see that as well. If anything, we would be shouldered with taking on another under performing player in return. Imagine trading a player like Smith, Pulk, Nyquist, or Tatar to Chicago for Brian Bickell. Thats the kind of player you get back from trading one of those assets.

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I really don't mind all the talk about Holland being fired or being told to move on. My question is, if he does move on, who do we replace him with that is as good or better? There is no one on the market right now that I would go with that is really coming to mind as a clear upgrade. Why make a downgrade at the GM position strictly for the sake of making a move?

Don Maloney? Look at what this guy has done in Phoenix with a fraction of the budget the Wings have.

WAS Holland a great GM? You bet but he has lost his passion and has become way too loyal to his guys and seems to be afraid of hard decisions.

Starting next year he is going to have a team that's lacking the 2 most important positions. for whatever reasons he seems to think rebuild is a bad thing but maybe only till it's too late and then what? It doesn't even matter much right now because the holes can't be fixed in one off season...given that he has been unable to fix 1 hole (defense), why should I have confidence in him fixing defense and centers? Maybe he is just out of ideas or whatever it is, I'd rather not wait to find it out.

Yes, this is his mess and if he can't fix it someone else with new ideas has to do it.

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Don Maloney? Look at what this guy has done in Phoenix with a fraction of the budget the Wings have.

I wouldn't say he is better than Holland. What he has to do with the budget he has is bring up kids into the lineup and mix them in with veteran plugs instead of quality talent. Course, I really don't know how he would do in the Wings organization. Dave Talon did pretty well going from Chicago to Florida. Chicago was a spend to the cap team and Florida isn't.

Anyway, the point is that Don Maloney doesn't have a proven track record of winning. He isn't a clear cut upgrade over Holland in my mind.

As for this "mess", lets put it in perspective. The Wings are considering being one of the top 16 teams and qualifying for the playoffs as a mess. There are a lot of other teams out there that would love to have the "mess" that we have.

Edited by Nightfall

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As for this "mess", lets put it in perspective. The Wings are considering being one of the top 16 teams and qualifying for the playoffs as a mess. There are a lot of other teams out there that would love to have the "mess" that we have.

I'm sorry but this isn't good enough. We are trending downwards each year and holland does nothing. I want the wings to be on top again.

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One thing is clear in my mind: building through the draft doesn't work. It takes 5-10 years to see if you even have anyone good enough, and if you don't you have to start over. I feel like we only adopted the "build through the draft" narrative because we thought we had this pipeline of amazing players.

I think there can't be any one strategy you lean on more than the other. You win by trading, signing free agents and drafting. And in sports, winning now is more important than maybe being competitive ten years from now. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says how good we'll be 7 years from now, because if enough drafted players don't pan out (like they haven't for us) we would have wasted all that time.

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Sure. If that's how you call it. Another is that we are transitioning to youth. Something you've repeatedly advocated. I'd let the old free agents walk. Make market rate offers to Stamkos and Okposo (no harm if they go elsewhere), trade Pulkkinen to move up as far as possible in the draft (selecting the best offensive defenseman possible), and pencil ALL of Mantha, AA, Larkin, and Callahan into next years lineup.

I just bought two Callahan sticks from the Griffins equipment sale to use :P would love to see that little spitfire get some playing time next season. Doubt it happens consistently unless both helm and miller are gone.. But ya never know.

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One thing is clear in my mind: building through the draft doesn't work. It takes 5-10 years to see if you even have anyone good enough, and if you don't you have to start over. I feel like we only adopted the "build through the draft" narrative because we thought we had this pipeline of amazing players.

I think there can't be any one strategy you lean on more than the other. You win by trading, signing free agents and drafting. And in sports, winning now is more important than maybe being competitive ten years from now. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says how good we'll be 7 years from now, because if enough drafted players don't pan out (like they haven't for us) we would have wasted all that time.

Take care of the future, and the future will take care of the present.

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Sure. If that's how you call it. Another is that we are transitioning to youth. Something you've repeatedly advocated. I'd let the old free agents walk. Make market rate offers to Stamkos and Okposo (no harm if they go elsewhere), trade Pulkkinen to move up as far as possible in the draft (selecting the best offensive defenseman possible), and pencil ALL of Mantha, AA, Larkin, and Callahan into next years lineup.

Correct and I wasn't clear in my statement. I don't expect any big outside the organization moves. 1 max if any at all.

I just bought two Callahan sticks from the Griffins equipment sale to use :P would love to see that little spitfire get some playing time next season. Doubt it happens consistently unless both helm and miller are gone.. But ya never know.

Callahan isn't a NHL caliber player. he has been through waivers 2 years now and no one takes him. He is just a little too small little too slow, and not enough skill. Good AHL guy but that is it. When we need checkers it will be Lil Bert and Nastisiak that take those roles.

I really don't mind all the talk about Holland being fired or being told to move on. My question is, if he does move on, who do we replace him with that is as good or better? There is no one on the market right now that I would go with that is really coming to mind as a clear upgrade. Why make a downgrade at the GM position strictly for the sake of making a move?

This right here. Many people say to just unload Pulk, Smith, and so on. These under performing players aren't going anywhere because other teams see that as well. If anything, we would be shouldered with taking on another under performing player in return. Imagine trading a player like Smith, Pulk, Nyquist, or Tatar to Chicago for Brian Bickell. Thats the kind of player you get back from trading one of those assets.

Who was Holland when h was named GM? He was next in line. same with Blashill. Until you look and try you don't know.

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I'm sorry but this isn't good enough. We are trending downwards each year and holland does nothing. I want the wings to be on top again.

There is only 1 Stanley Cup winner. I want the Wings to be on top as well, but even the best team in the NHL Regular Season isn't guaranteed a cup victory. Welcome to the new NHL where parity is king and anyone can win on any given night.

Wouldn't trending downwards be missing the playoffs? If anything, he has been staying the same.

One thing is clear in my mind: building through the draft doesn't work. It takes 5-10 years to see if you even have anyone good enough, and if you don't you have to start over. I feel like we only adopted the "build through the draft" narrative because we thought we had this pipeline of amazing players.

I think there can't be any one strategy you lean on more than the other. You win by trading, signing free agents and drafting. And in sports, winning now is more important than maybe being competitive ten years from now. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says how good we'll be 7 years from now, because if enough drafted players don't pan out (like they haven't for us) we would have wasted all that time.

I agree. Just ask the Blackhawks how life was for them back when they were drafting high and their team was in the crapper for years. Now, they are winning thanks to those great draft picks that they had.

Heck, even signing good players doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to pan out. Even trading doesn't mean that they will pan out.

Then to win consistently in the regular season takes chemistry, luck, skill, and so on. Winning in the playoffs takes good special teams, puck luck, health, and so on.

In the end, putting together a cup winning team is rare indeed.

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One thing is clear in my mind: building through the draft doesn't work. It takes 5-10 years to see if you even have anyone good enough, and if you don't you have to start over. I feel like we only adopted the "build through the draft" narrative because we thought we had this pipeline of amazing players.

I think there can't be any one strategy you lean on more than the other. You win by trading, signing free agents and drafting. And in sports, winning now is more important than maybe being competitive ten years from now. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says how good we'll be 7 years from now, because if enough drafted players don't pan out (like they haven't for us) we would have wasted all that time.

Being successful is a combination of a lot of things but let's look at the last cup winners, what did they have in common?

- very good to elite goaltending - check

- superb defense - check

- at least 1 elite center and yes, I do include Bergeron into that category

The Kings and Hawks got there by drafting in the top 10 and surround those picks with other great players, i.e. proven veterans that know how to win. You can't solely rely on draft nor can you rely on UFA. But you also can't have a GM who is going to re-sign players out of loyalty or unwilling to change his plans, i.e. not trading them before they hit a wall. Sure, not every team has the luxury of having the best coach and GM ever like the Hawks do in Scotty...but there are stables on how to buildf a team and after this year, the Wings will have one heck of a time getting these things.

So yes, I think the term "mess" is very apropriate here and if it were me I'd rather have the Oilers lineup than the worst Wings edition in over 2 decades and again no top 10 pick, a defense that only has 1 top pairing guy in Danny D. and starting next year no top 6 center.

Personally I think the ownership was nuts to fire Don Maloney, the guy won't be without a job for long and I would love to see what he could do with a blank check. Do I think he will be better than Holland has been lately? Yes, because he would bring a different approach and maybe also a new voice and direction for the franchise (maybe that's exactly whats needed here). But fixing this mess will not be easy, neither for Holland nor for Maloney the only difference is Holland created it and if the last couple of years are any indication of whats to come..well then I must say I have lost faith in him. Thinking about what ifs (i.e. Stamkos) isn't go to do much for me because we've seen the past couple of years that the Wings aren't the goto destination anymore, this honor now belongs to...the Hawks so other than a guaranteed top line center spot there is nothing the Wings can offer him. Money won't be an issue for him because everyone knows Stammer will get at least10 mill per but I think it will take 11 + to get his signature under the dotted line.

Of course the new GM would need some time to work things out but the Wings are looking at a 5 - 6 years (at least) rebuild anyway so why not try something else and promote Holland to the VP of hockey operations. He would still be involved, could share his awesome knowledge and also get paid very well that would be a win-win.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I wouldn't say he is better than Holland. What he has to do with the budget he has is bring up kids into the lineup and mix them in with veteran plugs instead of quality talent. Course, I really don't know how he would do in the Wings organization. Dave Talon did pretty well going from Chicago to Florida. Chicago was a spend to the cap team and Florida isn't.

Anyway, the point is that Don Maloney doesn't have a proven track record of winning. He isn't a clear cut upgrade over Holland in my mind.

As for this "mess", lets put it in perspective. The Wings are considering being one of the top 16 teams and qualifying for the playoffs as a mess. There are a lot of other teams out there that would love to have the "mess" that we have.

Being in the top 53% isn't good enough. I don't expect to win a cup every year. But we should be in the position to win. We are not.

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I'm not a frequent visitor, so didn't want to start a whole new thread on this, but to me, a big part of this mess involves the inexplicable comments from Blashill on AA. He wins the game for us and shows more energy and drive than 80% of the other forwards (if not all) and yet we hear that he is uniquely talented to capitalize on low minutes and despite scoring and making things happen we need to keep him to low minutes?!?! This makes zero sense to me. Blash needs to take a course in logic and critical thinking. It is almost as if Blash will never backtrack on this, even if AA ends up with a hat trick of spinorama goals on 8 minutes of play.

If we had so many other forward dominating, then I could see this, but those days are loooong gone. To me this is a big symptom of the Wings outdated mindset of carefully cultivating young players for years and years. I firmly believe that if we let these hungry talented kids loose, the veterans would perk up and play for their darn jobs (since they don't seem to be showing up for their paycheck as it is). Of course fear of streak handcuffs KH and Blash. Sorry, end of rant! :lol:

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I feel like I'm one of the few people around here who don't think we look too bad going forward. And that our "down years" aren't all that down. We will be as good or better next year than we were this year. Even without Datsyuk. Two years from now we will be really good. We've already got our next first and second line centers in the organization. We've got two higher end goal scorers in Nyquist and Tatar. We have quality supplementary power forwards in Abby and Mantha. And we've got a future franchise goalie. Our defense needs work, and even its not as bad as people think. We are in a position now where our old guys are too old, and our young guys aren't quite there yet. What we need is time, for our next generation to mature. That's it. Chasing guys like Backes or Lucid would only put this team in the same spot its already in...just two or three years from now.

All I want from Holland and company is to commit fully to the kids in the off season, and improve the defense if possible without losing anything significant.

You also thought the offense would really improve under Blash.

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You don't understand genius coach Blash. He's.like a hipster. He's really smart, we're just too dumb to realize it.

Whenever I watch his post game comments that's the vibe I get, the weird faces he makes when one of the reporters asks him about ice time for certain players is really annoying too.

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Being in the top 53% isn't good enough. I don't expect to win a cup every year. But we should be in the position to win. We are not.

We took the cup finalists last year to 7 games. Kinda hard to make that argument that we are not in a position to win when we are. I will say we are not the favorites, and that is what rubs some Wings fans the wrong way. We aren't going to be the favorites unless the league changes.

Edited by Nightfall

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We took the cup finalists last year to 7 games. Kinda hard to make that argument that we are not in a position to win when we are. I will say we are not the favorites, and that is what rubs some Wings fans the wrong way. We aren't going to be the favorites unless the league changes.

Almost winning is still losing.

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Correct and I wasn't clear in my statement. I don't expect any big outside the organization moves. 1 max if any at all.

Callahan isn't a NHL caliber player. he has been through waivers 2 years now and no one takes him. He is just a little too small little too slow, and not enough skill. Good AHL guy but that is it. When we need checkers it will be Lil Bert and Nastisiak that take those roles.

Who was Holland when h was named GM? He was next in line. same with Blashill. Until you look and try you don't know.

Would be very okay with that too. Little Bert is entertaining to watch. Callahan could end up there with a big off season of training but yeah, you're most likely correct. I like the heart both him and bert seem to play with.

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We took the cup finalists last year to 7 games. Kinda hard to make that argument that we are not in a position to win when we are. I will say we are not the favorites, and that is what rubs some Wings fans the wrong way. We aren't going to be the favorites unless the league changes.

So now the league is the problem? The Blackhawks and Kings don't seem to have that issue, so why should we?

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