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Richdg

Fixing this mess....

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Got to be worried about the state of the defense going forward and theirs nobody in the pipeline. Wings can't make a pitch for a guy like Seth Jones because other teams have better peices. Sure we had productive peices (up until this last year) but they're small one dimensional Euro's. Why would another team choose a 30 goal scorer Tatar over a 30 goal guy like Johanssen. Too many teams need a #1 D and they're willing to go all in one one as part of a rebuild that the Wings won't be able to. Wings won't be a serious team until theirs somebody on defense that can be a difference maker in a series. If Holland pays DD huge money and term like he's a #1 I will have given up faith in him. I believe he is buying time right now until he finds worthy players that he doesn't see yet

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Got to be worried about the state of the defense going forward and theirs nobody in the pipeline. Wings can't make a pitch for a guy like Seth Jones because other teams have better peices. Sure we had productive peices (up until this last year) but they're small one dimensional Euro's. Why would another team choose a 30 goal scorer Tatar over a 30 goal guy like Johanssen. Too many teams need a #1 D and they're willing to go all in one one as part of a rebuild that the Wings won't be able to. Wings won't be a serious team until theirs somebody on defense that can be a difference maker in a series. If Holland pays DD huge money and term like he's a #1 I will have given up faith in him. I believe he is buying time right now until he finds worthy players that he doesn't see yet

Tanking doesnt give you a 1D. Most are not even drafted in the first round.

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Tanking doesnt give you a 1D. Most are not even drafted in the first round.

I mean bad teams like Columbus are willing to deal a guy like Johanssen but the Wings are not/cannot.

But if a guy comes up in the draft that the wings are really high on Holland needs to go after somebody. No high end potential at all has been through this system in a very very long time. You have to at least try to address this problem eventually

Edited by joesuffP

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Saddest thing is, The Wings have the second highest payroll in the NHL, factor in Franzen a money and they are tops.

That's the problem. When you have the highest payroll in the league and barely make they playoffs and can't score more than 2 goals or score a PP goal or stop a PK, etc...something is wrong. That something is Ken Holland. He gave way too much money to mediocre players and much too long of contracts and too many NTC'S.

Even if Holland could find takers for Howard or Ericsson, he'll for sure have to retain salary. Thus hindering our cap.

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I mean bad teams like Columbus are willing to deal a guy like Johanssen but the Wings are not/cannot.

But if a guy comes up in the draft that the wings are really high on Holland needs to go after somebody. No high end potential at all has been through this system in a very very long time. You have to at least try to address this problem eventually

I assume we are strictly talking D here, in which other then DD I agree.

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Saddest thing is, The Wings have the second highest payroll in the NHL, factor in Franzen a money and they are tops.

That's the problem. When you have the highest payroll in the league and barely make they playoffs and can't score more than 2 goals or score a PP goal or stop a PK, etc...something is wrong. That something is Ken Holland. He gave way too much money to mediocre players and much too long of contracts and too many NTC'S.

Even if Holland could find takers for Howard or Ericsson, he'll for sure have to retain salary. Thus hindering our cap.

Don't worry, Helm is due of a raise. Detroit will be #1 soon!

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Saddest thing is, The Wings have the second highest payroll in the NHL, factor in Franzen a money and they are tops.

That's the problem. When you have the highest payroll in the league and barely make they playoffs and can't score more than 2 goals or score a PP goal or stop a PK, etc...something is wrong. That something is Ken Holland. He gave way too much money to mediocre players and much too long of contracts and too many NTC'S.

Even if Holland could find takers for Howard or Ericsson, he'll for sure have to retain salary. Thus hindering our cap.

That is a bit of a deceiving statement. #1 - #15 are all between 73.8 million and 70.5 million, which is pretty much the same considering LTIR plays a huge factor.

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We need a serious shake-up next season. We need Larkin to be playing top 6 C and we will need one top 6 UFA C at minimum. We need lines with identity and I think having a physical skill 3rd line like this playoffs makes sense. We need skill guys playing with skill guys from now on.

FWD:

- One of Tatar/Nyquist should be traded to move up in the draft or acquire more pics to get our future D sorted. Pulkkinen should probably be shipped off too at the draft.

- UFA C could be Stamkos/Backes/Staal (hinges on trading Datsyuk's contract away)

Zetterberg - Larkin - Mantha

Tatar/Nyquist - UFA C - Athanasiou

Jurco - Sheahan - Abdelkader

Nosek - Glendening - Bertuzzi/Callahan

DEF:

- Sign one of Yandle/Goligoski/Hamhuis

- Trade Ericsson

UFA D - Green

Kronwall - Dekeyser

Smith - Marchenko

XO/Sproul

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We need a serious shake-up next season. We need Larkin to be playing top 6 C and we will need one top 6 UFA C at minimum. We need lines with identity and I think having a physical skill 3rd line like this playoffs makes sense. We need skill guys playing with skill guys from now on.

FWD:

- One of Tatar/Nyquist should be traded to move up in the draft or acquire more pics to get our future D sorted. Pulkkinen should probably be shipped off too at the draft.

- UFA C could be Stamkos/Backes/Staal (hinges on trading Datsyuk's contract away)

Zetterberg - Larkin - Mantha

Tatar/Nyquist - UFA C - Athanasiou

Jurco - Sheahan - Abdelkader

Nosek - Glendening - Bertuzzi/Callahan

DEF:

- Sign one of Yandle/Goligoski/Hamhuis

- Trade Ericsson

UFA D - Green

Kronwall - Dekeyser

Smith - Marchenko

XO/Sproul

We are re-building. Signing a guy like Staal, Hamhuis etc. just takes a spot away from a kid, and likely adds a big cap hit.

We need to stay the course and stick with the re-build, the only type of UFA I want is a franchise player (ie. Stamkos) or a 1A d-man (ie. maybe Yandle).

We have enough 2nd and 3rd liners on this team, we dont need any more at a 5mil cap hit.

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"Big E" is a garbage fire and has to go. I don't give a s*** about his wrist passes to the opposing goaltender anymore. His play in his own and and his costly penalties are not Red Wing hockey. They're barely NHL hockey.

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Didn't read a word of this post but I will throw my 2 cents in on how to fix this mess... Run Blashill and his boring hockey system clear out of town and BEG Babs to come back!

The Blashill experiment failed miserably. Don't believe me, watch the never ending team confusion and random line shuffling. Watch what has become a very boring and predictable team get owned over and over and over again.

That stupid new zone entry move they use repeatedly.... forward quickly carries the puck to the opponents blue line then all forwards stop, pass the puck back to the defense, then wait for the defense-man to carry the puck in. Guddammet!!!! This team is young... turn the youth loose!!!! Forget the dumb pass back BS. If you can't carry the puck in then dump and chase. Get it deep and have that youth chase and hound. We don't have the high powered super stars of decades ago... we need an old school smash-mouth system. Aggressive fore-check, mucking and grinding in the corners, hard shots on net and young kids crashing and fighting for pucks in front. Teach them to step in and finish a check... no more patty cakes! No need for killing people but checks that make the other team think.

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Won't happen. That article also cites the Franzen deal as a reason to fire Holland. But even though it's turned out horribly, especially when compared to Hossa's post-Wings career, at the time it was a logical decision to make. Franzen looked like he would set the hockey world on fire for years to come. He was dominant in the playoffs. He was every bit a Hossa. Now, signing either one would have been good, but Hossa had the reputation as a bit of a playoff choker, at least with the Wings that year. So it's not rocket science to see why he was signed and not Hossa. Yes, it turned out bad, but hindsight is 20/20. People need to stop using that as a sign of Holland's inability to make a smart hockey move.

And while Yzerman is a good GM, he's hardly becoming legendary. He's about to lose his franchise forward, the Drouin situation is a black eye, the whole debacle with St. Louis, etc. Yes, his team made the finals, but so have a bunch of teams the last ten years. He hasn't consistently made noise in the playoffs yet. Would I welcome him here? Absolutely. But let's not pretend he's magically the best of the best. And his team isn't going anywhere this year, but they did benefit from playing an extremely weak Wings team.

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So now the league is the problem? The Blackhawks and Kings don't seem to have that issue, so why should we?

The Hawks also got a great number of #1 picks after tanking for a great number of years. Seems that is the winning formula right there. Chicago has two guys that are making 11 million a season each and they are down 3-1 against the Blues. I think their goose is cooked. Looks like we will have a new cup winner this year.

We are already seeing a changing of the guard. Teams like Florida run by great GMs like Dale Talon have got high draft picks after being in the dumps for years and are now making great teams that are going to have more playoff success than those who haven't missed the playoffs in 25 years.

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This is a three year rebuild. It will take us that long to clear out the bad contracts/old declining players. Even then it will take a GM with guts to make it happen.

2017-Datsyuk's contract is done and this is the first year Kornwall could be traded.

2018-Green's contract is up

2019-Howard and Kronwall's contracts are done.

2020-Ericsson's contract is up

2021-Z's contract is up.

Those 6 guys take up 34 million or 48% of this years cap. All have NTC's atm.

This summer we have the room to resign our RFA's and add 2 UFA's/trades.

Next summer we can add 2 more and resign our own players.

2018 we might be able to add 1 after resigning our own.

2019 now we can buyout Ericsson and maybe Z if he hasn't retired by then.

In the mean time we have to hope the guys we have play better to improve the team and improve their trade value.

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The Hawks also got a great number of #1 picks after tanking for a great number of years. Seems that is the winning formula right there. Chicago has two guys that are making 11 million a season each and they are down 3-1 against the Blues. I think their goose is cooked. Looks like we will have a new cup winner this year.

We are already seeing a changing of the guard. Teams like Florida run by great GMs like Dale Talon have got high draft picks after being in the dumps for years and are now making great teams that are going to have more playoff success than those who haven't missed the playoffs in 25 years.

Those 1st round draft picks help, but the Hawks didn't win because of Toews, Keith and Kane alone. Every year people say their team will collapse due to cap pressure, yet every year (almost) they make a plethora of depth moves (plus the Hossa signing) that make them competitive year in, year out.

So yes, draft picks help but if your strategy to build a winning team is simply to suck for years I'd like to point you to Toronto, Edmonton, Phoenix, Buffalo, etc. It doesn't work more often than it works. The key is developing players, not where they are drafted. The Wings have botched their player development the last eight years or so because of the chaos that massive injuries have caused as well as an over-reliance on veterans and this year a system that doesn't utilize any players' strength.

For all we know Tatar and Nyquist just had terrible years because of the system, because everyone else sucked this year, too. Maybe with a new coach, or new assistant coaches, or another year of familiarizing themselves with it, they will bounce back. A team with an effective Tatar, Nyquist, Mrazek and Larkin can be a good core to build around. Get Stamkos at virtually any cost and sign a defenseman. We won't be a Cup contender next year even with those moves, but that's a "rebuild" that promises to be more effective. Make additional changes the following season.

I've never been a fan of sucking for early draft picks. It is entirely possible to stay competitive and build Cup caliber teams through a combination of drafting, development, free agency, trades and undrafted signings. We could get more effective role players for some of the pieces we have and that's another step that can strengthen the team long term.

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What a painful game to watch. The Bolts' power play before their second goal resembled a 5 on 3 for long stretches of time........kind of reminded me of the way the Wings used to treat opponents in the not too distant past. The Wings are a physically weak team, always seem to lose the 50/50 battles, and they are no longer skilled enough to overcome that fact. It's hard to blame Datsyuk for wanting to get the hell outta there..........prospects for quick improvement look bleak. It's time for Holland to make some drastic changes, but we all know what the chances of that are. I'm sure he's still muttering to himself "We like our team".

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This is a three year rebuild. It will take us that long to clear out the bad contracts/old declining players. Even then it will take a GM with guts to make it happen.

2017-Datsyuk's contract is done and this is the first year Kornwall could be traded.

2018-Green's contract is up

2019-Howard and Kronwall's contracts are done.

2020-Ericsson's contract is up

2021-Z's contract is up.

Those 6 guys take up 34 million or 48% of this years cap. All have NTC's atm.

This summer we have the room to resign our RFA's and add 2 UFA's/trades.

Next summer we can add 2 more and resign our own players.

2018 we might be able to add 1 after resigning our own.

2019 now we can buyout Ericsson and maybe Z if he hasn't retired by then.

In the mean time we have to hope the guys we have play better to improve the team and improve their trade value.

Not that he'll ever be traded anyhow, but Z doesn't have any clauses on his contract.

NTC's are really nothing. Time and time again, players with NTC/NMC get traded, year after year. If you have a good GM, anyone can be traded. A NTC just gurantees a player that they can control where they get traded to. Jimmy will get traded, and if Holland has any sights set on making this team good again, he will trade E and Pav's contract when/if he leaves next week.

Z is an enigma. He can still contribute, but it has to be at a lessor role with much less icetime. 3rd line would be the ideal spot. Holland needs to address this in the summer or else. We seem to have found, at least it looks that way, a nice line combo that has great chemistry and can be a shutdown unit in Abby - Glenny - Sheahan, moving forward for the rest of their careers, this could be an outstanding 4th line.

Holland needs to trade the fat that has no future here in the resurgence of this franchise. E, Howard, Smith (unless he starts to get he icetime again, because he is useless in the press box) one of Nyquist/Tatar and Pulkkinen and Jurco. I say, do not re-sign the UFA's, especially KFQ, and if Helm comes cheap, fine, but let Ricahrds go, no offense and nothing against him, its just time to give the kids the show. Holland does need to land a #1 center/winger to replace Pav and Z. Plus he needs to get a legit offensive D-Man.

I am going to maintain that Stamkos and Yandle are the two he should go after at all cost. I'd even try to get Backes as well. Of course will there be enough money? That's all on Holland. Trade all these players for picks. Stockpile them up. Cut your payroll immensely and then get the guys you need.

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Those 1st round draft picks help, but the Hawks didn't win because of Toews, Keith and Kane alone. Every year people say their team will collapse due to cap pressure, yet every year (almost) they make a plethora of depth moves (plus the Hossa signing) that make them competitive year in, year out.

So yes, draft picks help but if your strategy to build a winning team is simply to suck for years I'd like to point you to Toronto, Edmonton, Phoenix, Buffalo, etc. It doesn't work more often than it works. The key is developing players, not where they are drafted. The Wings have botched their player development the last eight years or so because of the chaos that massive injuries have caused as well as an over-reliance on veterans and this year a system that doesn't utilize any players' strength.

For all we know Tatar and Nyquist just had terrible years because of the system, because everyone else sucked this year, too. Maybe with a new coach, or new assistant coaches, or another year of familiarizing themselves with it, they will bounce back. A team with an effective Tatar, Nyquist, Mrazek and Larkin can be a good core to build around. Get Stamkos at virtually any cost and sign a defenseman. We won't be a Cup contender next year even with those moves, but that's a "rebuild" that promises to be more effective. Make additional changes the following season.

I've never been a fan of sucking for early draft picks. It is entirely possible to stay competitive and build Cup caliber teams through a combination of drafting, development, free agency, trades and undrafted signings. We could get more effective role players for some of the pieces we have and that's another step that can strengthen the team long term.

This is the first year that the Hawks has had to deal with cap pressure. They dealt with it by not resigning Patrick Sharp, who was a key component in their cup victories. Bickell was a horrible signing but he was lightning in a bottle for them in their cup run as well. Its going to get harder and harder for them from this point forward with Hossa being signed until he is 42, and then Kane and Towes making a ton of cash. They will be in the same position the Wings are in today.

I do agree that draft picks don't always work out. Development is key, and I will say that when the Griffins were run into the ground by crappy coaches like Frasier, their development took a dive. It wasn't until we hired Blashill when we saw what real development could be. He took a team that wasn't really developed and made them a Cup winner. IMHO, Blashill is a great coach for the younger kids in the AHL as he is a developmental coach. I would have signed him to a 5 million a year contract and asked him to stay in the AHL to be that valuable developmental coach that we needed. Who knows if he would have taken that or not. So I wouldn't say the Wings have botched development the last 8 years, but they did before Blashill took over in the 2012-2013 season. So much talent went through the Griffins and it was squandered.

I really don't know if Tatar, Nyquist, or even Larkin are perennial NHL talents or not. They have all had one good season, and then just kinda fell off the map. Part of being a good NHL talent is being able to do it again and improve on your stats. So far, we haven't seen that from any of these players. Larkin could explode next season, or become like Tatar and Nyquist. Getting Stamkos and a #1 defenseman would be a good move for us for sure.

I am also not a fan of sucking or tanking for draft picks. If you are a glass half full guy, like I am, you will look at that young core and feel that there is hope for the future. If you are a glass half empty, you could look at Tatar, Nyquist, and Larkin and say they are all one year wonders and they will all regress next season. In which case, that strong young core is garbage and we really are going to be missing the playoffs next season.

Either way, we are all Wings fans here. I am hoping for the glass half full scenario.

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Aside from roster moves, I think Jim Bedard has to be looked at closely. I'm not convinced he is a good enough goalie coach. He has been in that role for 100 years. We've had some decent goaltending along the way, but we need Mrazek to take a step forward to achieve his full potential. Is Bedard the best man for that job?

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Nightfall, Sharp was traded away not unresigned. big difference in the actions. By trading him Bowman was taken action to keep his team in a position to win everything.


Not that he'll ever be traded anyhow, but Z doesn't have any clauses on his contract.

NTC's are really nothing. Time and time again, players with NTC/NMC get traded, year after year. If you have a good GM, anyone can be traded. A NTC just gurantees a player that they can control where they get traded to. Jimmy will get traded, and if Holland has any sights set on making this team good again, he will trade E and Pav's contract when/if he leaves next week.

Z is an enigma. He can still contribute, but it has to be at a lessor role with much less icetime. 3rd line would be the ideal spot. Holland needs to address this in the summer or else. We seem to have found, at least it looks that way, a nice line combo that has great chemistry and can be a shutdown unit in Abby - Glenny - Sheahan, moving forward for the rest of their careers, this could be an outstanding 4th line.

Holland needs to trade the fat that has no future here in the resurgence of this franchise. E, Howard, Smith (unless he starts to get he icetime again, because he is useless in the press box) one of Nyquist/Tatar and Pulkkinen and Jurco. I say, do not re-sign the UFA's, especially KFQ, and if Helm comes cheap, fine, but let Ricahrds go, no offense and nothing against him, its just time to give the kids the show. Holland does need to land a #1 center/winger to replace Pav and Z. Plus he needs to get a legit offensive D-Man.

I am going to maintain that Stamkos and Yandle are the two he should go after at all cost. I'd even try to get Backes as well. Of course will there be enough money? That's all on Holland. Trade all these players for picks. Stockpile them up. Cut your payroll immensely and then get the guys you need.

SJ begs to differ. NTC typically get moved when the player pushes the issue. Do you expect Ericsson, or Z or Kronwall to ask to be traded? Howard maybe.

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Nightfall, Sharp was traded away not unresigned. big difference in the actions. By trading him Bowman was taken action to keep his team in a position to win everything.

SJ begs to differ. NTC typically get moved when the player pushes the issue. Do you expect Ericsson, or Z or Kronwall to ask to be traded? Howard maybe.

Z doesnt have a no-trade clause, so that is irrelevant.

I dont believe Kronwall needs to be traded, I admit being the 1A guy right now is a bit much for him at this stage, but I am fine with him being on the second pairing or the third. He brings some good leadership to the backend, he just cant be relied on as "the guy".

Howard I do see asking for a trade. As he showed at the end of the year, he has something left in the tank and I think their are teams that would be interested in him.

E.....not a horrible as the narrative created on LGW.com, but he is overpaid and I dont see him wanting to be traded unless he is made a healthy scratch. But if he's made a health scratch, his trade value plummets. Catch 22.

Edited by kliq

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Nightfall, Sharp was traded away not unresigned. big difference in the actions. By trading him Bowman was taken action to keep his team in a position to win everything.

SJ begs to differ. NTC typically get moved when the player pushes the issue. Do you expect Ericsson, or Z or Kronwall to ask to be traded? Howard maybe.

Sharp was traded as a cap dump. No part of that move was "to keep the team in a position to win everything".

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The Griffins will be real good come Friday

Zetterberg should be joining them as part of their playoff run. Maybe he'll be a beast in some playoffs again.

Won't happen. That article also cites the Franzen deal as a reason to fire Holland. But even though it's turned out horribly, especially when compared to Hossa's post-Wings career, at the time it was a logical decision to make. Franzen looked like he would set the hockey world on fire for years to come. He was dominant in the playoffs. He was every bit a Hossa. Now, signing either one would have been good, but Hossa had the reputation as a bit of a playoff choker, at least with the Wings that year. So it's not rocket science to see why he was signed and not Hossa. Yes, it turned out bad, but hindsight is 20/20. People need to stop using that as a sign of Holland's inability to make a smart hockey move.

And while Yzerman is a good GM, he's hardly becoming legendary. He's about to lose his franchise forward, the Drouin situation is a black eye, the whole debacle with St. Louis, etc. Yes, his team made the finals, but so have a bunch of teams the last ten years. He hasn't consistently made noise in the playoffs yet. Would I welcome him here? Absolutely. But let's not pretend he's magically the best of the best. And his team isn't going anywhere this year, but they did benefit from playing an extremely weak Wings team.

Isn't a GM supposed to be more forward looking than fans and have better instincts? Yes, any fan back then would have kept Franzen over Hossa, but Holland gets paid the big bucks we don't to make moves we wouldn't be smart enough to make.

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