Fixing this mess....

[e_prime 1,936]

Lidstrom was a defenseman. They make good money even in their later years due to their longevity on ice. How many forwards in the league who are 39/40 make 6-7 million?

Seriously can someone answer this?

Well, if your Jagr... you're getting 3.5 in salary and 1.9 in bonuses. ...but he's the outlier not the standard bearer.

[Aethernum 276]

As for Datsyuk, what benefit is there to bringing him back? We are not going to win the SC or even be a real contender with him. He is going to get 5+ million just like all of our past greats did to play. Bringing him back would only be taking more minutes away from talented young prospects that need to play so we know what we have.

Playing the young kids isn't what helps them develop. Playing them alongside established veterans who play responsible, smart, two-way hockey is what helps them develop. Putting them next to someone with the vision that Datsyuk has so they can see him in action is what makes them better.

You want the burden of providing speed and energy and grit on the younger kids, to be sure, but they need people to learn from, as well. That's why you can't just play the Griffins squad at the NHL level and expect success.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Lidstrom was also still winning Norris Trophies while he was signing 1 year deals. He won it the year before he retired. That is why he was still getting $6.2M per year.

I can see Holland still paying Datsyuk whatever he wants, just like Lidstrom (I do remember each we we were all like, "Lidstrom will sign for $4M-$5M, but it was always $6.2M) but hopefully Dats takes that $5M or so, if not, I can see Holland giving him whatever he wants to stay a year at a time.

Playing the young kids isn't what helps them develop. Playing them alongside established veterans who play responsible, smart, two-way hockey is what helps them develop. Putting them next to someone with the vision that Datsyuk has so they can see him in action is what makes them better.

You want the burden of providing speed and energy and grit on the younger kids, to be sure, but they need people to learn from, as well. That's why you can't just play the Griffins squad at the NHL level and expect success.

Dats between AA and Mantha would help them tremendously, along with helping Dats extend his career. We have that opportunity now to see that combo, but for some reason Blashill sees AA in a different light than everyone else. He needs to be in the top 6, period.

...fixing this mess starts with Larkin-Z-Abby and AA -Dats -Mantha as your top 6. I'd even question Abby, but we all know that will not change.

[Echolalia 2,961]

He's ranked 4th in GP out of all active players

1) Jagr - 202 GP

2) Hossa - 194 GP

3) Elias - 162 GP

4) Datsyuk - 152 GP

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-playoff-games-played-leaders.html

Elias is not a name I would have thought up if someone had asked me who the top 4 are

[Buppy 1,720]

How much was Nicky paid his last couple of years? About 6 million each. To think there is going to be a dramatic pay cut is naive. This is Holland and the RW's we are talking about. Over pay for loyalty-which we have done for years. Which is part of the reasons we are where we are.

Over the past 5 seasons-this one is not finished yet Datsyuk has played 280 out of a possible 365. In those 280 games he has 258 points which is very good. But he doesn't play full seasons anymore. Paying a guy 5 million per year to play 60 games and produce 55 points is not a smart use of your money/cap. Keeping guys around to long is what kills dynasties.

Datsyuk has been a great RW for a long time. I expect him to retire next summer. He has plenty of money, has won cups, and his family lives in Russia. It is time for all to say thanks for the memories and move on.

Actually, $5M for 55 points would be pretty decent value. If we think he'd produce like that, and would sign for that hit, I'd do it. Question is if he would still be capable of that. What we don't want is to pay $5.5M for 36 points, and lose someone who could potentially help us beyond 17-18.

Playing the young kids isn't what helps them develop. Playing them alongside established veterans who play responsible, smart, two-way hockey is what helps them develop. Putting them next to someone with the vision that Datsyuk has so they can see him in action is what makes them better.

You want the burden of providing speed and energy and grit on the younger kids, to be sure, but they need people to learn from, as well. That's why you can't just play the Griffins squad at the NHL level and expect success.

But you don't help kids develop by not playing them at all either. Nor do you help your team for the future by giving up someone who could be a part of it in favor of clinging to the past for an extra year.

But those are questions we can't make a good guess at right now. Have to wait until after next season. Pointless to talk about it now.

[kickazz 5,459]

Actually, $5M for 55 points would be pretty decent value. If we think he'd produce like that, and would sign for that hit, I'd do it. Question is if he would still be capable of that. What we don't want is to pay $5.5M for 36 points, and lose someone who could potentially help us beyond 17-18.

But you don't help kids develop by not playing them at all either. Nor do you help your team for the future by giving up someone who could be a part of it in favor of clinging to the past for an extra year.

But those are questions we can't make a good guess at right now. Have to wait until after next season. Pointless to talk about it now.

So who exactly is knocking on the Wings door that can't get in because of Dats and Zetterberg? Jurco and Pulkinnen?

I'm actually wondering btw.

Picture it's 2018 and we have Dats and Z on an 18 man roster. Who would they be hindering from being on there.

18 slots. 12 forwards two taken up by them so 10 forward spots left.

Edited March 19, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If Datsyuk plays well next year and wants to come back it's a no brainer. If there's a roster issue it will be because Holland has flooded the roster with mid and low level players on long term deals complete with NTCs.

[Buppy 1,720]

So who exactly is knocking on the Wings door that can't get in because of Dats and Zetterberg? Jurco and Pulkinnen?

Is it the start of the 18-19 season? Was I supposed to set my clock forward 9000 hours? Because I thought it was just 1.

Point is, we don't yet what our situation will be, or how Datsyuk will hold up.

Sure, this year it's only Jurco and Pulkkinen, and Datsyuk is still a good player. May be different a year from now.

[Buppy 1,720]

If Datsyuk plays well next year and wants to come back it's a no brainer. If there's a roster issue it will be because Holland has flooded the roster with mid and low level players on long term deals complete with NTCs.

And if Datsyuk plays 65-ish games next year, scores 9 goals and 32 points? Then wants to come back for $5.4M per for 2 years?

[kickazz 5,459]

Is it the start of the 18-19 season? Was I supposed to set my clock forward 9000 hours? Because I thought it was just 1.

Point is, we don't yet what our situation will be, or how Datsyuk will hold up.

Sure, this year it's only Jurco and Pulkkinen, and Datsyuk is still a good player. May be different a year from now.

I suggest you read the rest of my post. No need to get snappy.

I suggested a hypothetical scenario. You can check how our GR roster and see who may have the potential to crack the line up. 2 veterans taking up a 12 man forward roster space. Do we have more than 10 worthy forwards knocking on the door by 2018? I doubt it.

Just as a side note our 2008 stanley cup roster had the following age range of players -

Two players that were 40+ year olds.

Eight players that were 35-40 year olds.

Four 30-34 year olds.

Drake - Draper - Maltby was our third line.

Holmstrom was 35 and on the first line.

If Draper, Drake and Maltby can be good enough to be part of a third line on a cup team then a 38/39 year old Datsyuk can be as well. Draper only produced 17 points in the 08 season. So 50 points from a 39 year old would be nice. Hell even 36 points wouldn't be bad as long as the cap hit is worth it.

Jagr is 43 and his cap hit is $3.5 million and currently has 55 points on his team.

Let's see I just forwarded the clock a few thousand hours, then rewound it a few more thousand and moved forward a couple to the present. Time travel is fun.

Edited March 19, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

And if Datsyuk plays 65-ish games next year, scores 9 goals and 32 points? Then wants to come back for $5.4M per for 2 years?

Then that's not playing well, is it? Regardless I don't think he'd want to come back

I suggest you read the rest of my post. No need to get snappy.

I suggested a hypothetical scenario. You can check how our GR roster and see who may have the potential to crack the line up. 2 veterans taking up a 12 man forward roster space. Do we have more than 10 players knocking on the door by 2018? I doubt it.

Just as a side note out 2008 stanley cup roster had the following age range of players -

Two players that were 40+ year olds.

Eight players that were 35-40 year olds.

Four 30-34 year olds.

Drake - Draper - Maltby was our third line.

Holmstrom was 35 and on the first line.

If Draper, Drake and Maltby can be good enough to be part of a third line on a cup team then a 38/39 year old Datsyuk can be as well. Draper only produced 17 points in the 08 season. So 50 points from a 39 year old would be nice. Hell even 36 points wouldn't be bad as long as the cap hit is worth it.

Jagr is 43 and his cap hit is $3.5 million and currently has 55 points on his team.

To his point, they'll have

Zetterberg

Abdelakder

Nyquist

Tatar

Sheahan

Glendening

Mantha

AA

Helm

Larkin

Jurco

Pulkkinen

Bertuzzi

Svechnikov

and possibly a few others either on the roster or fighting for a spot unless the GM makes a trade or lets a free agent walk.

[kickazz 5,459]

Then that's not playing well, is it? Regardless I don't think he'd want to come back

To his point, they'll have

Zetterberg

Abdelakder

Nyquist

Tatar

Sheahan

Glendening

Mantha

AA

Helm

Larkin

Jurco

Pulkkinen

Bertuzzi

Svechnikov

and possibly a few others either on the roster or fighting for a spot unless the GM makes a trade or lets a free agent walk.

Not sure if Bertuzzi makes it and if he does possible a 4th line guy (although Krsmith may be better able to assess him than me). Trade Nyquist, Helm may not come back if he thinks he's worth more than we will offer. Jurco and Pulk I have no idea what the plan is with them - neither seem to be favored by the coach. Although I bet Jurco has a better shot of staying here than Pulk. Sheahan isn't looking like we expected him to be. Do we hang on to him? Maybe. Glendenning isn't that good.

That's a possible 5-6 guys who are up in the air. So down to 7 players for sure to keep including Zetterberg. 8 if you include Datsyuk. So four more spots for young players.

Build this team around Larkin, Mantha, Svech, AA. Keep 2 veterans (D and Z). By 2018 Svech might make this roster like Larkin leap frogged. Highly doubt our 2016 and 2017 draft picks will make 2018 roster.

That's 4 RFA's to build around and two veterans who could have total cap hit of around 10 million in 2018. I think it's possible.

OR.

Bring Stamkos and Yandle and the rest is history.

gg.

Edited March 19, 2016 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

...

I suggested a hypothetical scenario. ...

That's exactly my point. Everything at this point is hypothetical.

Assuming that Datsyuk will still be good, will even want to come back, will sign for a good price, that we won't have better options, etc., is no more valid than assuming we may not want him back. Bottom line is that is a decision we make after next year.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I think the Datsyuk declining beyond third line center in the next year or two is very unlikely. I think it's even less likely that he doesn't want to play beyond next season, to play at least one year in the new building. There's zero chance that if he wants to sign another year contract that Holland, Blashill, and the entire team wouldn't want him back. I also don't see Datsyuk being selfish in negotiations, and would likely sign at somewhat of a discount..

[kickazz 5,459]

It's not in the nature of Pav and Z to be greedy. Remember when Z and his agent negotiated his huge contract with Holland and Yzerman? Z specifically had his contract designed so he wouldn't make more money than Lidstrom during the initial years. That's just pure class..

Edited March 20, 2016 by kickazz

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Datsyuk is too smart to decline too much more, and even if he loses another step you can just slide him over to the wing with larkin or aa. Having him to mentor Larkin/Athanasiou/svech/mantha/etc is important and a great asset to have. Like a player/coach.

Sure, injuries could be a problem, but having pavel effing Datsyuk help teach the incoming core for 50-60 games a year is still 50-60 games a year that one of the best hockey minds to ever play the game is rubbing off on the youngens.

Unless he falls of a huge cliff, I don't see how this is even debatable.

[kickazz 5,459]

Datsyuk is too smart to decline too much more.

The more I look at it the more I think he hasn't even SIGNIFICANTLY declined... 65 points in 63 games last year.... Corsi for % 60.6 last year to 59.3 this year. Fenwick is actually higher this year. This year is an outlier because he didn't have a training camp or any sort of summer conditioning... You really can't even count this year against him because he was at such a disadvantage.

I think Datsyuk will have a better year next year than this year. So as far as "Fixing the mess" is concerned I don't think he should even be in the equation as far as issues are concerned.

Edited March 20, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

The more I look at it the more I think he hasn't even SIGNIFICANTLY declined... 65 points in 63 games last year.... Corsi for % 60.6 last year to 59.3 this year. Fenwick is actually higher this year. This year is an outlier because he didn't have a training camp or any sort of summer conditioning... You really can't even count this year against him because he was at such a disadvantage.

I think Datsyuk will have a better year next year than this year. So as far as "Fixing the mess" is concerned I don't think he should even be in the equation as far as issues are concerned.

Completely agree, Datsyuk hasnt really declined that much. The issue he has is that he cant stay healthy for 82 games anymore. At the end of the day, if we get into the playoffs and he's healthy at that point, thats all that matters.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Lol 2 games and all of a sudden the decline of players isn't a problem? whether it's after next year or the year after that at some point the post Datsyuk future will be the reality and one can only hope that this team isn't as badly prepared as they were for the post Lids era.

As great as Pasha is he has stated many times that his goal is to end his career in Russia. Lids never said anything about wanting to end his career in Sweden he just said he would go home after him being done playing in the NHL. So different circumstances for sure.Also IF he decided to stay 5 mill would be a ridiculous hometown discount I don't see him taking such a lowball offer, if it's a 1 year deal it has to start with a 7.

When your team is missing a number 1 defenseman, soon an elite center - hardest positions to fix - it's a mess and not an easy one to fix. The only positive is there is time to fix things but man if Holland doesn't up his game the search for a center will end up like the search for another number one defender.

[kliq 3,755]

Lol 2 games and all of a sudden the decline of players isn't a problem? whether it's after next year or the year after that at some point the post Datsyuk future will be the reality and one can only hope that this team isn't as badly prepared as they were for the post Lids era.

As great as Pasha is he has stated many times that his goal is to end his career in Russia. Lids never said anything about wanting to end his career in Sweden he just said he would go home after him being done playing in the NHL. So different circumstances for sure.Also IF he decided to stay 5 mill would be a ridiculous hometown discount I don't see him taking such a lowball offer, if it's a 1 year deal it has to start with a 7.

When your team is missing a number 1 defenseman, soon an elite center - hardest positions to fix - it's a mess and not an easy one to fix. The only positive is there is time to fix things but man if Holland doesn't up his game the search for a center will end up like the search for another number one defender.

Where did you get this from?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Where did you get this from?

People stating that Pasha hasn't declined ? I hate to say it but he has although to me he is still the best player on the team if healthy. Which just proves how good this guy is but man I already miss him dangling around like nothing a few years back.

[kliq 3,755]

People stating that Pasha hasn't declined ? I hate to say it but he has although to me he is still the best player on the team if healthy. Which just proves how good this guy is but man I already miss him dangling around like nothing a few years back.

Look at his stats Frank, he hasn't declined that much, his issue is staying healthy. I have no doubt that a completely healthy Datsyuk for 82 games could still score in the 70-80 point range. I admit we will never likely get that again, but the guy isnt some washed up veteran that some are making him out to be (I dont mean you).

I think everyone knows we need to replace Datsyuk at some point, but I believe there is no reason to think Larkin cant jump into that role in a few years.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Datsyuk is still putting up points but he's not close to the same player he was 4 years ago.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

The more I look at it the more I think he hasn't even SIGNIFICANTLY declined... 65 points in 63 games last year.... Corsi for % 60.6 last year to 59.3 this year. Fenwick is actually higher this year. This year is an outlier because he didn't have a training camp or any sort of summer conditioning... You really can't even count this year against him because he was at such a disadvantage.

I think Datsyuk will have a better year next year than this year. So as far as "Fixing the mess" is concerned I don't think he should even be in the equation as far as issues are concerned.

Where my math freaks at ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Datsyuk is still putting up points but he's not close to the same player he was 4 years ago.

Thanks for the insight.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[puckbags 863]

Yes I understand there are parts of what follows that could be in about 5 different threads, but this is addressing all of the issues in one thread so bare with me here.

The first thing we all have to do is the easy part: identify the problems. There are several. We need to improve the D. Both defensively and offensively. But our biggest issue is our O. The problems with our O have been talked to death around here and elsewhere. lack of front of net guys, lack of guys working the corners, lack of guys working behind the net. lack of physical play. This year lack of shooting. The second half of the year G has been an issue. Howard was bad in January and lately Mrasek has not been sharpe-he might just be tired.

Now the harder part, fixing the problems. It is impossible to move/get rid of everyone that we should. In a cap world you can't just cut everyone that isn't performing. So this will take time. We have at least 2 more years of making changes ahead of us. I think most of us understand that we all just differ as to how we need to do it. Some want to tank and get the top 10 picks, others hope we can just keep patching holes and be better than everyone else at drafting. The former is a tough pill to swallow and the second is naive.

There are some players on this team that right or wrong are not going to get traded or cut. Z, Datsyuk, Abby, Kronwall and maybe Ericsson are here until they choose not to be or their contracts expire. There are some others we just will have to wait it out like Green.

So let's start with my thoughts.

1. We have a top line. Let Z-datsyuk-abby play together until retirement. They have alwasy been a good group and will continue to be, even though they are slowing down.

2. Second line starts with Larkin and Mantha. Find them a wing that can match their skill.

3. 3rd line should be Jurco-AA-Tangradi for next season. 2 young guys and a journeyman that does a few things well-like play in front of the net. Tangradi is here until Scvechnikov is ready in a year or 2.

4. The 4th line is made up of Sheahan and Glendening and whatever good skating checker we choose. be it from GR or sign a cheap UFA like Mike Martin to fill out the 3rd spot. Bring Miller back for one more year as the 13th forward.

5. Everyone else not listed above is allowed to walk as a UFA or becomes trade bait. There is only one hole left in the forward group. But we have guys like Nyquist, tatar, and Pulk that can be moved.

6. Plan on keeping 8 Dmen next year. My top pair would be DD and ????. The second pair would be Kronwall and Marchenko, with Ericsson and Green on the third pair. Oullett and Sproul are the 4th pair-otherwise we risk losing them via waivers. That leaves Smith as a tradable piece. 1 hole left to fill on the blueline.

7 G is Mrasek and find a new veteran backup. This means Howard can be moved.

By doing this we have 3/4 holes to fill: 2nd line winger, checking winger for the 4th line, top pair Dman,and backup G. But we have Nyquist, tatar, Pulk, Smith, and Howard as trade pieces. We would also have a large amount of cap space if those 5 are in fact moved if we decide to enter the UFA market.

Now the hard part. Filling the holes. We have to find dancing partners and more importantly we have to have a GM that looks and tries to make moves.

The very first move I would try to make is call the Jets and Islanders and put together a 3 way trade. Something along the lines of: Howard, tatar, and jensen to the Isles, they send Halak to us and hammonic to the Jets, and the Jets send Trouba to us. Halak becomes our vet G and Trouba gets paired with DD to develop as our top pair. That fills 2 of our 4 holes, the money washes out for everyone, and everyone gets a little better.

Now we can take Nyquist and Smith and try to work a deal for the second line winger to fill that hole. Our we can stand pat play Nyquist and move Smith for a pick. Same with Pulk.

This summer we then draft Gauthier and give him a year or 2 to get ready. After the 2016/17 season Scvechnikov replaces Tangradi who can then be traded. The following year Gauthier replaces Jurco.

Of course the big question is who replaces datsyuk in the summer of 2017?

Stopped reading at Tangradi, cmon.

That is definitely a big part of the problem. I cant blame either of those two, as they have busted their butts for this team for years and are simply older and beat up. But they are no longer guys you can count on to get you a PPG for 82 games. Hopefully next year they can be our secondary scorers while some of our kids combined with a UFA signing can move up to the first line. That's a lot to ask of a Larkin at 20, but if this team could land a Stamkos (ya I know it wont happen) having Larkin, Stamoks, AA, Z, D, Abby in our top 6 is a top 6 I feel good about!

Ya he is. I would have to do the exact math to be sure, but if we could trade Howard, E, and possibly Green, with Richards and Quincy coming off the books we could make a play for Stamkos and Yandle. Stamkos is likely going to be around a 10mil cap hit, and Yandle 6/7ish....so we need to clear 17mil for those two. Howard and E alone 9 together, Green is 6, Quincey/RIchards are 7.

You land Stamkos by making a hockey trade, trade whatever you have to. A combo of Tatar, Gus, Mantha, Picks, Prospects. Whatever you have to do. Larkin and Stamkos going forward would be scary. Mrazek in net. Shore up the D and it would be unstoppable I think.