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Richdg

Fixing this mess....

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For all the people constantly b****ing about Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. (aka secondary scoring / depth players), they are not the issue. These players are not hurting our team, like some like to suggest, and Nyquist and Tatar do not "suck", like has been the narrative around here for the past couple months... Both are very good secondary scorers and while their production has dipped a little, they're both still making things happen offensively. Both are in the top 4 on the team in Pts/60, Corsi% and Fenwick%.

Again, secondary scoring is far from the issue with this team, our issue like others have stated is primary scoring. Zetterberg and Datsyuk have clearly lost a step or two and Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou are all too young and inexperienced to carry the load. They will get there in a couple years, and when they do, our depth should be very good and we'll be back to contenders.

Our biggest need is clearly on the back end, and I'd be willing to trade some of our depth for help back there. Of course teams are going to ask for Larkin and Mantha, but they know damn well they're not going anywhere, and I don't think we would need to trade one of them to upgrade the defense. A package including one of Nyquist or Tatar and prospect(s), pick(s) should be enough to get it done.

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Our biggest need is clearly on the back end, and I'd be willing to trade some of our depth for help back there. Of course teams are going to ask for Larkin and Mantha, but they know damn well they're not going anywhere, and I don't think we would need to trade one of them to upgrade the defense. A package including one of Nyquist or Tatar and prospect(s), pick(s) should be enough to get it done.

I agree with most of your points, specifically this one. When we were at our best, we had a great defense. People are complaining about our lack of production out of Nyquist and Tatar, but how are they supposed to score when the puck is constantly in our end? Honestly, I think our fowards are fine and is without a doubt the best part of our team. I'd like to see the defense get overhauled this offseason. DK, Kronwall and Green are the only ones that stay. If they're really serious about overhauling it, trade Green too. DK is our best, Kronwall is our veteran leader. Getting a bunch of new faces on the blueline may not make things much better, but they honestly can't be any worse than what we have.

The goalie situation needs fixed next. We're in a rebuilding phase, so I'd probably go with these two for one more year and see what they can do. If neither one can take over as the #1 guy, get rid of them both and sign a veteran. I'm like 90% sure that with Mrazek it's a conditioning thing. He's never played this many games in a single season and the season isn't even over yet. This happens with a lot of young players, in pretty much every sport, actually. They're simply not used to playing this much in this amount of time at this level. With Howard, it's a confidence thing. For those with short memories, this guy is a former NHL all star, that was a rock for us from 2010-2013. If he can fix his confidence problem, he could be great for us again. Unfortunately, that's a tough thing to fix.

Finally, the coaching. Blashill's only in his first year, so its tough to be too critical of him. However, this team was near the top of the division at the All Star break, nothing changed personnel wise and now we're currently out of a playoff spot and losing to teams we should be beating. That's a coaching problem. We're losing to Columbus, getting shutout at home to Toronto, struggling to win against the Jets and Habs. When we play playoff teams we're getting outplayed and blown out badly. This wasn't happening earlier in the season, but it's happening now. That's a coaching problem. There doesn't seem to be any intensity or desperation. Most of the time we're losing before some people even get to their seats. A lot of times right after we score, the other team either gets it right back or at least gets a really good scoring chance. That's coaching. Blashill's a young guy and will have growing pains. I didn't expect him to come in and be another Bowman or Babcock, but he's a guy that has a tough task ahead.

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For all the people constantly b****ing about Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. (aka secondary scoring / depth players), they are not the issue. These players are not hurting our team, like some like to suggest, and Nyquist and Tatar do not "suck", like has been the narrative around here for the past couple months... Both are very good secondary scorers and while their production has dipped a little, they're both still making things happen offensively. Both are in the top 4 on the team in Pts/60, Corsi% and Fenwick%.

Again, secondary scoring is far from the issue with this team, our issue like others have stated is primary scoring. Zetterberg and Datsyuk have clearly lost a step or two and Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou are all too young and inexperienced to carry the load. They will get there in a couple years, and when they do, our depth should be very good and we'll be back to contenders.

Our biggest need is clearly on the back end, and I'd be willing to trade some of our depth for help back there. Of course teams are going to ask for Larkin and Mantha, but they know damn well they're not going anywhere, and I don't think we would need to trade one of them to upgrade the defense. A package including one of Nyquist or Tatar and prospect(s), pick(s) should be enough to get it done.

We have NO secondary scoring. Z and Dats (even if he has missed 16 games) are 1 and 2 in scoring.

We can argue that Nyquist/Tatar doesn't works well together... but if Kenny is talking about "rebuilt" than it should be seen larger than 4th liners or 7th def. Moves will need to be done

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I don't think Nyquist or Tatar suck, I think they are good secondary players. But we lack the primary players. Looking just at numbers we have 0 primary players up front. Datsyuk and Z have dropped below that point and Larkin, Mantha and AA have not reach it yet. 50 points from your top line F's IS TERRIBLE! We may not have a single F get to 50. The leaders are at 45 IIRC.

For anyone to say all of our problems are at one position is wrong. Yes the BL needs to be upgraded-#1 but so do the F's. If the puck is always in our zone is that on the D for not getting it out or on the F's for not keeping it in the other teams zone? True is it is both. I was listening to the game on the radio Saturday and the post game. Paul Woods talked a ton about the F's not keeping the puck in the O zone and putting pressure on the other team.

As for the turnover, yes it is hard to turn over half the team in a year. But it needs to be done none the less. Much of the team is just average or below. The top 6 forwards and top 4 D all need to be upgraded. It is that simple-and that hard to do. Until this happens prepare for a streak of not making the PO's Because that is where we are at.

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Dominator, we have no secondary scoring? You're kidding right? If not, you and I have a completely different definition of primary and secondary scoring in the NHL then... I believe primary scorers are top line guys that put up 55+ points in a season, and secondary scorers are middle 6 type guys that put up somewhere around 30-50ish points in a season... This season it looks like we won't have a single player that I would consider a primary scorer (Datsyuk would have been if he played a full season), and we have six players that I would consider secondary scorers (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader and Larkin). I think you can also add Mantha and Athanasiou to that group next season. So going into next season, without any changes other than the veterans taking another step back and the kids likely taking another step forward, we still won't have any primary scorers, and around eight secondary scorers... Sure, any of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin or Mantha could get there, but I doubt any of them top 65+ points, which is the type of players this team is missing in my opinion. I think both Larkin and Mantha have the potential to be annual 65+ point guys, but they're likely at least a couple years away from that yet... Anyway, the point is, secondary scoring is far from this teams issue, primary scoring is the major problem up front...

Edited by krsmith17

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Here is one for you all. It has been widely rumored for 2 years now that Malkin is going to get moved. he is the type of player that we lack, is very expensive cap wise, and does come with some injury concerns. But all that set aside would you do a Nyquist+Smith to Pitt for Malkin and they retain say 1.5-2 million per year?

If I could get them to retain 2 million per year I would. Next year you have the following top 6:

Malkin-Datsyuk-Abby

Z-Larkin-Mantha

That is starting to look much better. Then in 2017/18 Datsyuk is gone, Malkin goes back to C and Schvenikov moves in on his wing.

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Here is one for you all. It has been widely rumored for 2 years now that Malkin is going to get moved. he is the type of player that we lack, is very expensive cap wise, and does come with some injury concerns. But all that set aside would you do a Nyquist+Smith to Pitt for Malkin and they retain say 1.5-2 million per year?

If I could get them to retain 2 million per year I would. Next year you have the following top 6:

Malkin-Datsyuk-Abby

Z-Larkin-Mantha

That is starting to look much better. Then in 2017/18 Datsyuk is gone, Malkin goes back to C and Schvenikov moves in on his wing.

You think that's fair value for Malkin plus they're going to retain salary? lol

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Its not as far fetched as you might think. Pitt wants to free up cap to add depth to their team. Malkin is 29, Nyquist and Smith are both younger and would be adding depth. Now will they want more? of course. But it is possible. Even if we have to add another secondary piece like Sheahan or Jurco I would still do it. That is the point in the discussion. we need stars, Malkin is a star that could be available.

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Its not as far fetched as you might think. Pitt wants to free up cap to add depth to their team. Malkin is 29, Nyquist and Smith are both younger and would be adding depth. Now will they want more? of course. But it is possible. Even if we have to add another secondary piece like Sheahan or Jurco I would still do it. That is the point in the discussion. we need stars, Malkin is a star that could be available.

It's not about quantity it's about quality.

If someone is going to deal a star player like Malkin, their going to insist on getting a very good piece back.

Not a bunch of mid to lower level pieces.

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Malkin for Nyquist, Smith gets Holland blacklisted in the Pens office that's such an insulting offer wow. Adding guys like Jurco makes it even worse nobody is dumb enough to accept quantity for high quality if the Pens are trading Malkin it would be for a guy like Shea Weber or someone of that calibre.

Also Malkin doesn't do anything to fix the defense the Wings can't outscore their problems ... teams are built from the backend not vise versa.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Exactly. Any trade for a player like Malkin would start with Mantha, and much more would have to be added as well. That's exactly why you rarely ever see all-star caliber players traded. They're either traded before they become all-stars or years after they were all-stars... If we're trading for help up front or on the back end, it needs to be for a player that we feel has the potential to be a top line player or top pair defenseman, we're simply not going to get one in his prime...

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Every year we hear about stars that are available, we all debate what it would cost, then are shocked at how little teams pay. it happens all the time. Happened with Nash, Kessel, Hamilton, Kesler, etc....

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Every year we hear about stars that are available, we all debate what it would cost, then are shocked at how little teams pay. it happens all the time. Happened with Nash, Kessel, Hamilton, Kesler, etc....

Malkin is a superstar and if they trade him it's going to be for a 1 defenseman something the Wings don't have. Wings would have to start with Larkin, Mantha and still go heavy from there just to get the conversation even started.

Malkin is at least 1 level above all if the mentioned players, also where is the source for claiming Malkin is available ?

Edited by frankgrimes

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Not a single one of them are on the same level as Malkin, and all of them still retrieved a first round pick, plus some high end players / prospects... Malkin is not going anywhere, and even if he were, it would certainly cost a hell of a lot more than Nyquist and Smith...

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We've all known for a while that we have a team full of bottom 6er's. We've touched on it before. We had hoped that the likes of Tatar and Nyquist would emerge as something more or better, but they have not. Of course we have Dats and Z who can be 1st line players on most teams, but really, in the shape they are in, they are better suited 2nd on and lower. Not knocking them at all, and God bless them for still leading our team, but we really do have a team full of (outside of a couple of kids now) bottom 6 players. What makes that even worse is we have the 3rd highest payroll in the NHL.

I agree with some above that we need to actually focus on having 2-3 superstar players and then our support players won't "look" as "bad" as they have. If we could land those two players to play with Larkin, we'd be in great shape.

Now, how to get those players. There's always the UFA route, but then there is the trade route as well. Problem is, as addressed above by KRSmith, we have a great amount of secondary and depth players, Holland needs to find a team with an over amount of potential superstar type, higher end players that are in need for depth on D, and secondary scoring type players. One team that comes to mind is Edmonton maybe. They have a bushel of higher end young forwards that could maybe be dealt for players that may suit them better. But who? I am not going to bring up Yakupov, but Eberle always seems to be talked about in trades for D depth or even cheaper secondary scoring. Not sure what it would cost for him, but could a top line comprised of, lets say : Eberle - Larkin - Lucic be something that could spark our offense? I am sure Eberle would be pricey to attain, not going to get into prices, but a 1st and a 20-30 goal scoring roster player would be in the mix...along with a established NHL defender and maybe a player like Pulk or Jurco...

I would love a lineup like that, especially if we strike out on the Stamkos sweeps (which we probably will.)

Lucic - Larkin - Eberle

AA - Dats - Mantha

Abby - Z - Tatar (or Nyquist if one or the other is dealt)

Helm - Sheahan - Glendening

Don't shoot me over the line orders, just because Z is listed 3rd C, doesn't mean he's a 3C player, I pretty much just put groups together.

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Malkin for Nyquist, Smith gets Holland blacklisted in the Pens office that's such an insulting offer wow. Adding guys like Jurco makes it even worse nobody is dumb enough to accept quantity for high quality if the Pens are trading Malkin it would be for a guy like Shea Weber or someone of that calibre.

Also Malkin doesn't do anything to fix the defense the Wings can't outscore their problems ... teams are built from the backend not vise versa.

Yes and no. Yes defense wins championships. But our D is still ranked above or better than our O is. BTW the Oilers in the 80's won a ton of Cups without playing D, we went to the Cup in 95 without playing D and other teams have done so as well.

We have issues on both ends, we need a major injection of talent for both groups. But you also have to add what is available.

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Every year we hear about stars that are available, we all debate what it would cost, then are shocked at how little teams pay. it happens all the time. Happened with Nash, Kessel, Hamilton, Kesler, etc....

We didn't get Nash because it was inter-divisional and the price was high...same as Kessel and Hamilton. Kesler had a NTC and didn't list Detroit as a destination. That I agree, we were a victim of. But I think it would cost less to get someone from the West...

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Yes and no. Yes defense wins championships. But our D is still ranked above or better than our O is. BTW the Oilers in the 80's won a ton of Cups without playing D, we went to the Cup in 95 without playing D and other teams have done so as well.

We have issues on both ends, we need a major injection of talent for both groups. But you also have to add what is available.

And got shattered by New Jerseys Defense aka Scott Stevens.

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First of all, this team is not at all "full of bottom sixers", middle sixers would be more accurate. We have a lot of 2nd line guys, just not enough first line guys. Also, I love how you want to trade for Eberle but hate on Nyquist and Tatar when they're all virtually the same type of player... Eberle is the same size, so he too will get "pushed off the puck", and he scores at a slightly higher clip than two of the guys you constantly hate on... You would seriously trade a 20-30 goal scorer (Nyquist / Tatar), a first round pick, an established NHL defender, and a depth player (Jurco / Pulkkinen) for a 20-30 goal scorer Eberle?... :confused:

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For all the people constantly b****ing about Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. (aka secondary scoring / depth players), they are not the issue. These players are not hurting our team, like some like to suggest, and Nyquist and Tatar do not "suck", like has been the narrative around here for the past couple months... Both are very good secondary scorers and while their production has dipped a little, they're both still making things happen offensively. Both are in the top 4 on the team in Pts/60, Corsi% and Fenwick%.

Again, secondary scoring is far from the issue with this team, our issue like others have stated is primary scoring. Zetterberg and Datsyuk have clearly lost a step or two and Larkin, Mantha and Athanasiou are all too young and inexperienced to carry the load. They will get there in a couple years, and when they do, our depth should be very good and we'll be back to contenders.

Our biggest need is clearly on the back end, and I'd be willing to trade some of our depth for help back there. Of course teams are going to ask for Larkin and Mantha, but they know damn well they're not going anywhere, and I don't think we would need to trade one of them to upgrade the defense. A package including one of Nyquist or Tatar and prospect(s), pick(s) should be enough to get it done.

Tatar and Nyquist provide almost nothing BUT the scoring, which isn't good enough. Also, being in the top 4 on this team isn't much to brag about. Pulkinnen is what he is,I wasn't expecting much more. Jurco was starting to look good and be engaged physically for a few games, Trashill praised him in the media and scratched him the next game, and Jurco hasn't been the same since. That's bad coaching.

Nobody expects AA or Mantha to carry the laod, and only people who think a hot start to a rookie season means a player is already elite thought that about Larkin. AA and Mantha should be playing more than they are, though. Trashill limits their minutes for the same defensive mistakes all the other forwards, including his "defensive aces," are making on a regular basis, only the vets are putting forward less effort than the rookies on a shift to shift basis. That's bad coaching.

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I'm not entirely sure how to fix the mess, but I do know a few things:

1. The powerplay is an atrocious mess that should have been fixed awhile back. They've done next-to-nothing to change it up all season long. A number of the players have similar EV point totals compared to last season's, but they PP has really hurt the offensive totals for most on the team.

2. There's no way they should be leaning on Datsyuk and Zetterberg as heavily as they have. Through February, both guys (along with Abdelkader) were playing 20+ minutes a night. They were 4th and 5th in the league in time on ice. It's gone down this month, but only because Blash separated them. When your primary, go-to offense guys aren't getting it done, try leaning on some of the younger guys.

3. As critical as I've been of Smith in the past, there's no way he should be sitting. He drives possession on this team. Blashill's system is suited for players with wheels. When I look at this defensive corps, I don't see many players well-suited for Blash's system. If you're not going to change it up, make better use of the players who CAN play within your system.

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We didn't get Nash because it was inter-divisional and the price was high...same as Kessel and Hamilton. Kesler had a NTC and didn't list Detroit as a destination. That I agree, we were a victim of. But I think it would cost less to get someone from the West...

True. Inter division always costs more. But beggers can't be choosers either. Yes we are entering the beggers area..... Yikes......

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First of all, this team is not at all "full of bottom sixers", middle sixers would be more accurate. We have a lot of 2nd line guys, just not enough first line guys. Also, I love how you want to trade for Eberle but hate on Nyquist and Tatar when they're all virtually the same type of player... Eberle is the same size, so he too will get "pushed off the puck", and he scores at a slightly higher clip than two of the guys you constantly hate on... You would seriously trade a 20-30 goal scorer (Nyquist / Tatar), a first round pick, an established NHL defender, and a depth player (Jurco / Pulkkinen) for a 20-30 goal scorer Eberle?... :confused:

I don't hate on Tatar....just Nyquist. I thought Eberle had better stats, until I looked into his career (which is why I posted the where did he earn $6M question after the first post.)

I guess we have no choice but to let our guys develop and see where they go...can't afford to trade for a Malkin type player. Maybe we should tank for the next 5-6 years and get 4 or 5 top 3 picks in that span...I don't know. Maybe there is no "fix" this year...

Or just all in on Lucic (because he would change the makeup of the team) and Yandle (because he is better than our D-men right now and would be our #1.) I'd also like to ink up Okposo...

Edited by LeftWinger

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