Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 If Helm is back for 3 or 4 years at around $2.5 mil as a checking line player, ok. Anything more in terms of money, term, or role, it's bad. I think we all know it will be for more money and years than that. He makes 2.5 million now, he will get at least 1 million more per year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Smith isn't going anywhere (nor should he) unless it's in a package for a top pairing defenseman. It's an absolute joke that our best possession driving defenseman is currently scratched, it's an even bigger joke that so many fans want him traded... Also Helm should and likely will be the only UFA we re-sign. It will probably be at a bit more than most people would like to see, but I'm expecting (hoping) for somewhere around $2.25-2.75M. The trouble or problem with Smith is, his talent doesn't equal production. As talented as he is he has never had a 20 point season. Ericsson produces as many points per year as Smith does. Its not like he hasn't been given a solid shot either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Ericsson and Smith have been given similar opportunity? Not even close. Ericsson plays top 4 minutes no matter how bad he plays or how many turnover he commits. Smith gets demoted or scratched if he makes one questionable play or sometimes even if he's on the ice for that questionable play... Everyone would love for Smith's offensive numbers to go up and for he and his teammates to score more on the chances he produces, but which defenseman would you rather have despite the point totals? The one that drives the play and spends more time in the offensive zone away from our net, or the one that gets hemmed in our zone and gives up scoring opportunities to the opposition?... Smith > every defenseman on the Wings except DeKeyser and Green and Kronwall (when he's on his game...). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 I am done with Smith and it looks like Blashill is as well. Smith turns 28 soon and is a UFA after next season. Now is the time to move him in a deal to give him a fresh start. Schenn is 26-younger than Smith and KFQ. it still bugs me to now end that KFQ and Smith make a combined 7 million per year!!!!!!!! As for the young guys yes some will have to be moved our we will lose them for nothing. None are waiver protected anymore. Keep 8 Dmen next season. DD-YTBD #1 Kronwall-Schenn Ericsson-Green Oullett-Marchenko/Sproul/Jensen. That frees up Smith, and 2 of the marcheko/Sproul/Jensen group for moves. Summer of 2017 we could then move Kronwall-not that I think it will happen-just could. Summer of 2018 Green is gone. At that point we are down to 1 bad contract on D in Ericsson. Schenn is not better than Quincey, Smith, or Ericsson. There's also no way we could ever afford a #1D and Schenn without getting rid of Ericsson at least, and even that probably wouldn't be enough. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 It's more complicated than that. Whatever the cap hit a team is carrying on day 1, the team can get relif up to that point. The cap hits don't just disappear. Please elaborate? I was under the impression that if a guy is on LTIR his salary does not count against the cap. If they never take him off, how will his salary have any impact. For easy math, lets say Franzen carries a 3 million dollar cap hit and the cap is 70million. If we go into day 1 with 73 million including Franzen, even if on day 1 we then place him on LTIR, then we get 3 million in relief. Right? I dont see how that impacts us in any way which is what my original point was. Or is there something I am missing here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) Huge fan of Yandle but he is not what this team needs right now. He is another younger version of Green. The Wings need someone who doesn't sacrifice defense for more offense. That's why I've said missing the playoffs (needed wake-up call for the upper management) and drafting Chychrun, Juolevi would have been the right idea. I think people will be surprised with Yandle's price point. Schenn would be nice hut he sadly isn't a top pairing guy anymore but he brings a lot of qualities: hits like a machine, blocks shots and not afraid to mix it up Trading for another soft Euro, namely Yakupov on the forward position does nothing for this team. Tatar, Goose and Larkin need someone with size who can create space for them. But the fix has to start from the backend Edited April 4, 2016 by frankgrimes 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 I agree with everything you said frank, except for missing the playoffs for a better pick. Moving up a few spots in the draft guarantees nothing, and if there's a player that we really like, the option to move up is always there. Of course we're not likely to get in the top 5, but in the top 10 would be very doable if Holland was willing to trade our first plus another asset or two (roster player / prospect / pick)... 2 frankgrimes and Hockeymom1960 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,959 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) If Holland could shed some salary at the draft, then acquire Lucic and Yandle this summer, I think that would be a great step in the right direction. Not saying they are the be all, end all in UFA's (or trade acquisitions for that matter,) just high end examples. If, let's say, all UFA's leave (Maybe Helm stays for $3.5M or less) and Holland deals Smith, Jurco (or Pulk) for picks, then signs Yandle and Lucic, this team is (much) better (at least on paper.) As long as players are used correctly and given correct line mates. Lucic - Datsyuk - Mantha Larkin - Zetterberg - Abby Tatar - AA - Nyquist Helm - Sheahan - Glendening Jurco Yandle - Dekeyser Kronwall - Green Ericsson - Marchenko XO Looks great on paper... Edited April 4, 2016 by LeftWinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 I agree with everything you said frank, except for missing the playoffs for a better pick. Moving up a few spots in the draft guarantees nothing, and if there's a player that we really like, the option to move up is always there. Of course we're not likely to get in the top 5, but in the top 10 would be very doable if Holland was willing to trade our first plus another asset or two (roster player / prospect / pick)... From what I've read only 2 defenders are considered 'can't miss' Juolevi and Chychrun. So while I agree with you it's damn hard to trade into the top 10 without giving up Mantha, Larkin or Danny D. Would love it if one of Goose , Tatar plus the Wings first round pick would get the job done but that's not the case. Missing the playoffs would have increased the likelihood of getting into the top 10. But yeah I think no matter what the Wings have to swing for one of the 2 defenders because I highly doubt Laine and Puljujarvi are going to fall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) Schenn is not better than Quincey, Smith, or Ericsson. There's also no way we could ever afford a #1D and Schenn without getting rid of Ericsson at least, and even that probably wouldn't be enough. Not true at all. Right now we are going to have about 24 million in cap space after we resign our RFA's. Yes that is in a perfect world. But the point remains we have a good amount of cap room. Sing Schenn for say 5 million per, trade for or sign a #1 Dman for 8 million per year, that only comes to 13 million. Still have room to add more pieces to the F group and a vet backup G. We have 7 roster spots that could be open and need to be filled after moving out guys like Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Sproul, Jensen, Howard, Andersson, etc.... All numbers are based on what generalfanger.com has posted. Edited April 4, 2016 by Richdg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kliq 3,755 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Not true at all. Right now we are going to have about 14 million in cap space after we resign our RFA's. That includes guys like Nyquist, tatar, Howard, and Smith on the roster. They make around 15 million more. That means we could have up to 29 to spend via UFA and trades. Yes that is in a perfect world. But the point remains we have a good amount of cap room. Sing Schenn for say 5 million per, trade for or sign a #1 Dman for 8 million per year, that only comes to 13 million. Still have room to add more pieces to the F group and a vet backup G. All numbers are based on what generalfanger.com has posted. I dont know if its because he now plays for the Kings who are a very good team, but you are overvaluing Schenn big time. Here is an article from broadstreethockey.com, and this following line sums Schenn up: "With only one year left on his current contract and young prospects banging on the NHL door, Luke Schenn was always the most likely trade candidate. The chances of Schenn being in Philadelphia's future plans are slim. But waiving Schenn would be a drastic move, especially for a player who on average has performed at the level of a competent third-pair defenseman over the past three seasons." http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/10/3/9446261/could-the-philadelphia-flyers-waive-luke-schenn The guy is decent, but he just another E or Quincey. I would rather just keep Quncey then sign Schenn at 5 million per. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Schenn at $5M? That has to be a joke right? No way is he worth that as a 3rd pairing defenseman. And people think Quincey and Ericsson are overpaid... Also, none of Nyquist, Tatar or Smith are likely to be moved, even Howard is questionable, I hope we hold on to Sproul, and Jensen or Andersson obviously aren't going to garner any sort of interest or return from any other team in the league... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 I dont know if its because he now plays for the Kings who are a very good team, but you are overvaluing Schenn big time. Here is an article from broadstreethockey.com, and this following line sums Schenn up: "With only one year left on his current contract and young prospects banging on the NHL door, Luke Schenn was always the most likely trade candidate. The chances of Schenn being in Philadelphia's future plans are slim. But waiving Schenn would be a drastic move, especially for a player who on average has performed at the level of a competent third-pair defenseman over the past three seasons." http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/10/3/9446261/could-the-philadelphia-flyers-waive-luke-schenn The guy is decent, but he just another E or Quincey. I would rather just keep Quncey then sign Schenn at 5 million per. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. That is one writers opinion, which is fine. But I disagree. Schenn is 4 years younger, the cost would be similiar KFQ is a UFA this off season and made 4.25 per year on his last contract, Schenn is far more physical averages over 3 hits per game to KFQ's 1 per game. Takeaways and Giveaway's are about the same. So is blocked shots. Schenn is also RHed vs KFQ's LHed shot. Schenn is the much smarter move between the 2. Schenn at $5M? That has to be a joke right? No way is he worth that as a 3rd pairing defenseman. And people think Quincey and Ericsson are overpaid... Also, none of Nyquist, Tatar or Smith are likely to be moved, even Howard is questionable, I hope we hold on to Sproul, and Jensen or Andersson obviously aren't going to garner any sort of interest or return from any other team in the league... If you want players to be brought in, which we all do you have to have cap space and give up something to get something. It is that simple. Now do I expect a ton of changes? Nope. In fact I expect 0. But hope springs eternal. 1 whitewolf406 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,959 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Hope for sure....again, if this team remains the same just minus Richards and KFQ...we're doomed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) "If you want players to be brought in, which we all do"... That's a bit presumptuous isn't it? I want changes but most of the changes I would like to see come from within the organization. I don't want to sign or trade for players just for the sake of doing so. I want to continue the youth movement and get the kids more ice time. Sure there are players that I'd be willing to move in the right deal, and there are players that I would love to go after, but Luke Schenn definitely isn't at the top of my list... We don't need anymore depth defensemen, we need a legit top pair guy. If we're not able to land that sort of player, I'd prefer do nothing, and continue the "rebuild"... Edited April 4, 2016 by krsmith17 2 kliq and Son of a Wing reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,959 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Lucic - Datsyuk - Mantha Larkin - Zetterberg - Abby Tatar - AA - Nyquist Helm - Sheahan - Glendening Jurco Yandle - Dekeyser Kronwall - Green Ericsson - Marchenko XO Mrazek Enroth This would be my ideal wish for a nice off season...IF Pav stays...if he leaves, things get complicated, we may have to focus more on a center rather than Lucic... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bannedforlife 403 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Lucic - Datsyuk - Mantha Larkin - Zetterberg - Abby Tatar - AA - Nyquist Helm - Sheahan - Glendening Jurco Yandle - Dekeyser Kronwall - Green Ericsson - Marchenko XO Mrazek Enroth This would be my ideal wish for a nice off season...IF Pav stays...if he leaves, things get complicated, we may have to focus more on a center rather than Lucic... You just posted this exact same lineup in this same thread less than 4 hours ago. Slow day at work? 1 LeftWinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) Please elaborate? I was under the impression that if a guy is on LTIR his salary does not count against the cap. If they never take him off, how will his salary have any impact. For easy math, lets say Franzen carries a 3 million dollar cap hit and the cap is 70million. If we go into day 1 with 73 million including Franzen, even if on day 1 we then place him on LTIR, then we get 3 million in relief. Right? I dont see how that impacts us in any way which is what my original point was. Or is there something I am missing here? The Wings were in trouble earlier, there was an interview with Holland where he said whatever you cap hit is on day one, that's the cap for injury relief purposes. Here's a det snooze article about it On opening day, after the Red Wings placed Pavel Datsyuk on long-term injured reserve and made several other moves, the Red Wings’ salary cap was at roughly $66 million. After Johan Franzen’s concussion troubles returned the second week of the season, he was placed on the long-term injured list, which kept the Red Wings unable to escape those restrictions (the NHL takes into consideration what a team’s payroll is on opening day when there is an LTI). So, in essence, the Red Wings have a $66 million salary cap rather than $71 million. http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/01/10/red-wings-struggling-make-room-quinceys-return/78601510/ Edited April 4, 2016 by DickieDunn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Not true at all. Right now we are going to have about 24 million in cap space after we resign our RFA's. Yes that is in a perfect world. But the point remains we have a good amount of cap room. Sing Schenn for say 5 million per, trade for or sign a #1 Dman for 8 million per year, that only comes to 13 million. Still have room to add more pieces to the F group and a vet backup G. We have 7 roster spots that could be open and need to be filled after moving out guys like Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Sproul, Jensen, Howard, Andersson, etc.... All numbers are based on what generalfanger.com has posted. Not sure what your perfect world is, but in the real world we have about $16M before resigning our RFAs, assuming the rumored $73-74M cap. Signing DD and Mrazek is likely half of that. Getting rid of Smith and Howard, and LTIR for Franzen we could maybe get to $12-13M without doing anything at F, but that's optimistic. So I'll amend my "no way" to "extremely unlikely, and only at the expense of doing anything worthwhile at F". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Not sure what your perfect world is, but in the real world we have about $16M before resigning our RFAs, assuming the rumored $73-74M cap. Signing DD and Mrazek is likely half of that. Getting rid of Smith and Howard, and LTIR for Franzen we could maybe get to $12-13M without doing anything at F, but that's optimistic. So I'll amend my "no way" to "extremely unlikely, and only at the expense of doing anything worthwhile at F". do the math. Z 6.1, larkin >1, Abby 4.25, mantha >1, datsyuk 7.5, AA >1, Sheahan 2, Jurco >1, Glendening >1, DD 6, Kronwall 4.75, Ericsson 4.25, Oullett>1, Green 6, Marchenko >1, Mrazek 3. That is about 50 million. We have another 1.1 on Weiss's buyout. cap will be around 75 million. That leaves us with about 24 million to spend. 7 open roster spots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,959 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) You just posted this exact same lineup in this same thread less than 4 hours ago. Slow day at work? ! Oops! Ya, LONG day at work! Edited April 4, 2016 by LeftWinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 do the math. Z 6.1, larkin >1, Abby 4.25, mantha >1, datsyuk 7.5, AA >1, Sheahan 2, Jurco >1, Glendening >1, DD 6, Kronwall 4.75, Ericsson 4.25, Oullett>1, Green 6, Marchenko >1, Mrazek 3. That is about 50 million. We have another 1.1 on Weiss's buyout. cap will be around 75 million. That leaves us with about 24 million to spend. 7 open roster spots.So your perfect world is getting rid of Nyquist and Tatar. For Schenn.Awesome 2 Son of a Wing and krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,959 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 Just doing more research on Lucic, apparently Boston retained $2.75M of his salary so his actual salary was $6M this year...he will probably look for a raise or at least stay the same...what is with all these $6M+ guys only scoring 15-25 goals? My God look at St. Louis with the $7M 10 goal scoring Paul Stastny! Sheesh! I just rather go hard after Stamkos, if we fail, re-evaluate from within...I just cannot justify giving someone more than $6M to score less than 30 goals. I know Pav and Z are getting it, but I mean acquiring a UFA this summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 So your perfect world is getting rid of Nyquist and Tatar. For Schenn. Awesom now you are just assuming things. I have not at any point said that in any way shape or form. I have been very clear about making trades and signing UFA's and that this team needs at least 2 F 's and 3 Dmen between now and the start of the 17/18 season. That is on top of what we already have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted April 4, 2016 now you are just assuming things. I have not at any point said that in any way shape or form. I have been very clear about making trades and signing UFA's and that this team needs at least 2 F 's and 3 Dmen between now and the start of the 17/18 season. That is on top of what we already have. Wasn't assuming anything. The list of players you gave in your hypothetical $24M in free cap scenario did not include Nyquist or Tatar. Even in the unlikely event that the cap rises more than expected and we get rid of Howard without retaining anything and we fill the backup G and scrub spots for ~$4M, then spend $10-13M on defense, you're looking at replacing Nyquist and Tatar for $7-10M. You're not going to get anything better than them in that price range, and even if you get something about as good, we still haven't actually improved at forward. So again, signing Schenn as well someone that's actually good on defense is not only extremely unlikely, but also comes at the expense of upgrading at forward. But affordability aside, Schenn is just not that good. Even if we were struggling to hit the cap floor I wouldn't want him. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
