Fixing this mess....

[Jacksoni 418]

Wasn't assuming anything. The list of players you gave in your hypothetical $24M in free cap scenario did not include Nyquist or Tatar.

Even in the unlikely event that the cap rises more than expected and we get rid of Howard without retaining anything and we fill the backup G and scrub spots for ~$4M, then spend $10-13M on defense, you're looking at replacing Nyquist and Tatar for $7-10M. You're not going to get anything better than them in that price range, and even if you get something about as good, we still haven't actually improved at forward.

So again, signing Schenn as well someone that's actually good on defense is not only extremely unlikely, but also comes at the expense of upgrading at forward.

But affordability aside, Schenn is just not that good. Even if we were struggling to hit the cap floor I wouldn't want him.

I'm not Buppy, but I'm ok with not including Tatar in that cap. Said it before, I would trade him for a 6th round pick. What he brings is available for much less on most AHL teams in my opinion. Does not belong.

Yes he scores, when open and facing the goalie in the slot. More skilled than most, so can score when pressed for time and space.

But so can most skilled small players. Brings nothing but sniping and puck handling ability. Which we can get from young AHL studs for less than 1 million/year on short contracts.

He is a turnover danger everywhere else.

[Buppy 1,720]

I'm not Buppy, but I'm ok with not including Tatar in that cap. Said it before, I would trade him for a 6th round pick. What he brings is available for much less on most AHL teams in my opinion. Does not belong.

Yes he scores, when open and facing the goalie in the slot. More skilled than most, so can score when pressed for time and space.

But so can most skilled small players. Brings nothing but sniping and puck handling ability. Which we can get from young AHL studs for less than 1 million/year on short contracts.

He is a turnover danger everywhere else.

Tatar?

Sure you're not thinking of Pulkkinen? Or maybe Nyquist?

I would disagree either way, but it just seems a particularly odd opinion to have about Tatar.

[Richdg 267]

Wasn't assuming anything. The list of players you gave in your hypothetical $24M in free cap scenario did not include Nyquist or Tatar.

Even in the unlikely event that the cap rises more than expected and we get rid of Howard without retaining anything and we fill the backup G and scrub spots for ~$4M, then spend $10-13M on defense, you're looking at replacing Nyquist and Tatar for $7-10M. You're not going to get anything better than them in that price range, and even if you get something about as good, we still haven't actually improved at forward.

So again, signing Schenn as well someone that's actually good on defense is not only extremely unlikely, but also comes at the expense of upgrading at forward.

But affordability aside, Schenn is just not that good. Even if we were struggling to hit the cap floor I wouldn't want him.

To get you have to give. Both can be moved without hurting us at F. Together plus Smith now you have a package that can get you a true top pair Dman. Then you add a couple of F's one high priced scoring guy and one glue guy. Think Backes and Martin as an example. Now you have the following:

Z-Larkin-Abby

Mantha-Datsyuk-Backes

AA-Sheahan-Jurco

Martin-Glendening-pick a young guy

Miller

Dekeyser-trade

Kronwall-Schenn

Ericsson-Green

Oullett-Marchenko

Mrazek

vet backup

That leaves Scvechnikov in GR, and our 1st round pick-Gauthier in junior.

[Jacksoni 418]

I do mean Tatar.

Pulkkinen is on his way out unless he changes his game already. Probably wouldn't be picked up by anyone even if waivered.

Nyquist have struggles in the offensive zone but he does hold his own and is not a liability. Also a better defensive game overall compared to Tatar. Stronger and does battle, at least.

I would like to see the elusive Jurco be inserted for Tatar for a consistent row of games to see how the stats change.

Edit to stay moderately on topic:

I do agree on Schenn. He's certainly not bad but not what we need for the price. We need a top pairing shutdown defender, Big Buff would have been nice right now which I suggested in June.

No idea on what to get for the next season, my focus is on the upcoming games.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Jacksoni

[VM1138 1,921]

To get you have to give. Both can be moved without hurting us at F. Together plus Smith now you have a package that can get you a true top pair Dman. Then you add a couple of F's one high priced scoring guy and one glue guy. Think Backes and Martin as an example. Now you have the following:

Z-Larkin-Abby

Mantha-Datsyuk-Backes

AA-Sheahan-Jurco

Martin-Glendening-pick a young guy

Miller

Dekeyser-trade

Kronwall-Schenn

Ericsson-Green

Oullett-Marchenko

Mrazek

vet backup

That leaves Scvechnikov in GR, and our 1st round pick-Gauthier in junior.

I don't get why we'd bother with Schenn. Nobody in hockey thinks he's good.

[Buppy 1,720]

... Both can be moved without hurting us at F...

No. They can't.

Maybe we could move one for some improvement on D, then hope to offset that loss via UFA. Even that is unlikely. No chance in hell for both.

But this is getting a bit far afield from my original point. Schenn isn't good, and would be a waste of money.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Buppy

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I do mean Tatar.

Pulkkinen is on his way out unless he changes his game already. Probably wouldn't be picked up by anyone even if waivered.

Nyquist have struggles in the offensive zone but he does hold his own and is not a liability. Also a better defensive game overall compared to Tatar. Stronger and does battle, at least.

I would like to see the elusive Jurco be inserted for Tatar for a consistent row of games to see how the stats change.

Um.... No.

Tatar plays like a spaz and doesn't use his linemates, but he goes to the net and is driven to score. Nyquist is a warm body who seems afraid of contact.

[Richdg 267]

No. They can't.

Maybe we could move one for some improvement on D, then hope to offset that loss via UFA. Even that is unlikely. No chance in hell for both.

But this is getting a bit far afield from my original point. Schenn isn't good, and would be a waste of money.

Lombardi and Sutter beg to differ. Since they have won 2 SC's in the past few years and could be ready to win their third I will respect their opinion. Not a fans or a sports writer of some blog. Scheen was on some really bad ML teams and then some below average Philly teams.

Mantha and someone like Backes would more than make up for what we lose by trading Tatar and Nyquist. Cheaper as well. Then add in what we would gain by picking up another true top pair Dman and the team would be much better overall, which is the goal after all.

[VM1138 1,921]

Kid has played a handful of games and you're ready to have him take over for (almost) thirty goal scorers?

[Buppy 1,720]

Lombardi and Sutter beg to differ. ...

Mantha and someone like Backes would more than make up for what we lose by trading Tatar and Nyquist...

Lombardi and Sutter are paying him $1.8m to be a third pair guy, not $5m to play second. If he's so good and they're so great, why do you think they'll let him walk?

Even if, and it's a big if, Mantha and Backes could replace Nyquist and Tatar, you still haven't improved at F. Which is what I said. Sign Schenn and you aren't going to improve the forwards.

Even if you think it would cost Nyq+Tatar+Smith to get a top D, and that Backes+Mantha would replace them, we'd still be better off going with a cheap kid over Schenn and actually adding something at F.

[kliq 3,755]

The Wings were in trouble earlier, there was an interview with Holland where he said whatever you cap hit is on day one, that's the cap for injury relief purposes.

Here's a det snooze article about it

On opening day, after the Red Wings placed Pavel Datsyuk on long-term injured reserve and made several other moves, the Red Wings’ salary cap was at roughly $66 million.

After Johan Franzen’s concussion troubles returned the second week of the season, he was placed on the long-term injured list, which kept the Red Wings unable to escape those restrictions (the NHL takes into consideration what a team’s payroll is on opening day when there is an LTI).

So, in essence, the Red Wings have a $66 million salary cap rather than $71 million.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/01/10/red-wings-struggling-make-room-quinceys-return/78601510/

Thanks for posting, interesting. If the guy never comes off LTIR from the year before (think Pronger) does that change things?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Brayden Schenn? Hell yeah, I love that guy! Gritty and can score, what's not to like? Id totally sign him for 5 million.

What's that?

The other Schenn? LUKE Schenn? At 5 million?

No...s*** no man. No, no, no, no. NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Edited April 4, 2016 by kipwinger

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Thanks for posting, interesting. If the guy never comes off LTIR from the year before (think Pronger) does that change things?

Doesn't matter. You have to play the game every year

[kickazz 5,459]

Thanks for posting, interesting. If the guy never comes off LTIR from the year before (think Pronger) does that change things?

I dont think Franzek being on LTIR will hurt us in the future. (If that's what you guys are talking about- too lazy to scroll up)

Check out what Ansar said-

Q: Considering Mule (Johan Franzen) had a setback just two games into his comeback, do you think he'll hang up his skates? J.B.

A: It wouldn't be surprising if Franzen doesn't play again. To suffer a setback this soon is worrisome, to say the least, and it wasn't even triggered by a big hit.

He's not going to retire, not with $12.5 million remaining on his contract. If he's not cleared to play he'll go on long-term injured reserve and likely remain there for the duration of his contract (five years), like Chris Pronger and Marc Savard. This gives the club cap relief and does not subject it to a cap recapture penalty.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/10/ask_ansar_on_possible_defense.html

Edited April 4, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

That is one writers opinion, which is fine. But I disagree. Schenn is 4 years younger, the cost would be similiar KFQ is a UFA this off season and made 4.25 per year on his last contract, Schenn is far more physical averages over 3 hits per game to KFQ's 1 per game. Takeaways and Giveaway's are about the same. So is blocked shots. Schenn is also RHed vs KFQ's LHed shot. Schenn is the much smarter move between the 2.

Yes I posted 1 article, but that is pretty much the opinion of of every writer/journalist that I have ever read write about him. The Leafs gave up on him, the Flyers gave up on him, and yes the Kings did take him, but not at anything even close to 5 million. According to nhlbythenumbers his cap hit this season is 1.8 million and is an expiring contract.

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams/LAK?year=2016

In another post you said that you trust the opinion of Kings management over a writer but this is a very flawed argument as this apples and oranges. I have not read anywhere from the the Kings front office that they believe he is worth 5 million/year which is what you are trying to claim he is worth. This writer says that he is a competent 3rd pairing guy, which he is. The Kings are paying him like a third pairing guy. Seems pretty similar to me.

My argument is not that the guy is useless and not worth a contract, but that his is not worth 5 million/year. If the Wings signed him as a #6 d-man to a 1 year 1.5 million contract, that I would be open to. Long term at 5mil per year is not just bad, but an awful contract for Schenn.

[Richdg 267]

Some on here love circular firing squads. Our team needs to improve, yet at the same time we can't live without any of our players...... But hey the early tee times are coming.

Now some of you young fellas a big into the new age statistics. if you use those Scheen would be our second best offensive Dman tied with Smith. It terms of points per 60 mins. The arguement isn't if Scheen is a top 50 Dman in the league-he isn't. The question is is he better than what we have? he would be our 3rd best Dman. You can balk all you want at 5 mil per year, but that is what the market bares. IE Ericsson at 4.75 mil and KFQ at 4.25 million. Both of which are older more mistake prone, and they are far less physical. Schenn has like 220 hits this season. We don't have anyone over 100 IIRC. That is a big and needed change.

Now from managements stand point I can see them deciding that Marchenko is our 4th Dman. He is already playing on the second pair with Kronwall right now. He is younger and cheaper than Schenn. But is he better? Good question.

For the record, I am not some huge Schenn advocate. he is merely an option that would make our defense better. Nothing more. He is also well under 30 which helps his cause. if he is signed to a 5 or 6 year deal, it expires in his early 30's, not late 30's like so many of our broken down vets have going on.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Bahahaha

Luke Schenn @ 5 million = loss of all credibility and talent analysis

[Buppy 1,720]

Some on here love circular firing squads. Our team needs to improve, yet at the same time we can't live without any of our players...... But hey the early tee times are coming.

Now some of you young fellas a big into the new age statistics. if you use those Scheen would be our second best offensive Dman tied with Smith. It terms of points per 60 mins. The arguement isn't if Scheen is a top 50 Dman in the league-he isn't. The question is is he better than what we have? he would be our 3rd best Dman. You can balk all you want at 5 mil per year, but that is what the market bares. IE Ericsson at 4.75 mil and KFQ at 4.25 million. Both of which are older more mistake prone, and they are far less physical. Schenn has like 220 hits this season. We don't have anyone over 100 IIRC. That is a big and needed change.

Now from managements stand point I can see them deciding that Marchenko is our 4th Dman. He is already playing on the second pair with Kronwall right now. He is younger and cheaper than Schenn. But is he better? Good question.

For the record, I am not some huge Schenn advocate. he is merely an option that would make our defense better. Nothing more. He is also well under 30 which helps his cause. if he is signed to a 5 or 6 year deal, it expires in his early 30's, not late 30's like so many of our broken down vets have going on.

Not sure where you're getting those numbers, but they're wrong. At even strength, he's actually above everyone, not that it means anything. He has the exact same stat line as Ericsson, but plays about 1/2 a minute less per game so he's marginally ahead in /60. Overall he'd be 4th, marginally below Smith and slightly above Dekeyser. Regardless, being as good as some bad offensive players means he's also bad offensively. Hardly worth noting.

There's a lot I could go into in regards to advanced metrics that show that Schenn is not any better than anyone on our team (and probably worse), but not going to bother. Agree to disagree.

As to your first comment, let's not get fallacious. No one is saying that and you know it. Yes, we need to improve, and everyone knows we'll need to change some players. But a good way to not improve is to give away too much of what we already have.

[Richdg 267]

Got tired of copying... So right now we are not a good offensive or defensive club. We don't have the assets to make major improvements in both areas. But we can do so in one area. There is a reason why people say "defense wins championships", mainly because it is true. If the options are good defense with a poor offense OR a good offense with a poor defense, give me the former every time.

I am far less worried about how many points we get from our D than I am about how many goals our D gives up. From a economical standpoint defensive Dmen are cheaper than offensive Dmen. If a team has 2 good offensive Dmen that is more than enough. Now we have made deep runs each way. The 95, 08, and 09 teams had D's that averaged about 2.6 points per game. The 97, 98, and 02 teams averaged about 1.9 points per game from the D. That is a big difference. But that goes back to question I asked a few pages back, is our D not scoring enough because of the D or because of the F's? Cases can be made for both sides.

But when we come to the limited scoring side, that is far more on the D. If we had a top 10 D now we would be a good 10 points ahead in the standings. We also would be a team better built for the playoffs.

[Buppy 1,720]

Got tired of copying... So right now we are not a good offensive or defensive club. We don't have the assets to make major improvements in both areas. But we can do so in one area. There is a reason why people say "defense wins championships", mainly because it is true. If the options are good defense with a poor offense OR a good offense with a poor defense, give me the former every time.

I am far less worried about how many points we get from our D than I am about how many goals our D gives up. From a economical standpoint defensive Dmen are cheaper than offensive Dmen. If a team has 2 good offensive Dmen that is more than enough. Now we have made deep runs each way. The 95, 08, and 09 teams had D's that averaged about 2.6 points per game. The 97, 98, and 02 teams averaged about 1.9 points per game from the D. That is a big difference. But that goes back to question I asked a few pages back, is our D not scoring enough because of the D or because of the F's? Cases can be made for both sides.

But when we come to the limited scoring side, that is far more on the D. If we had a top 10 D now we would be a good 10 points ahead in the standings. We also would be a team better built for the playoffs.

You're the one who brought up Schenn's offensive numbers, I just pointed out that they aren't good despite where they'd rank on our team. If you want to talk defense, his numbers are worse than anyone on our team.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Yes I posted 1 article, but that is pretty much the opinion of of every writer/journalist that I have ever read write about him. The Leafs gave up on him, the Flyers gave up on him, and yes the Kings did take him, but not at anything even close to 5 million. According to nhlbythenumbers his cap hit this season is 1.8 million and is an expiring contract.

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams/LAK?year=2016

In another post you said that you trust the opinion of Kings management over a writer but this is a very flawed argument as this apples and oranges. I have not read anywhere from the the Kings front office that they believe he is worth 5 million/year which is what you are trying to claim he is worth. This writer says that he is a competent 3rd pairing guy, which he is. The Kings are paying him like a third pairing guy. Seems pretty similar to me.

My argument is not that the guy is useless and not worth a contract, but that his is not worth 5 million/year. If the Wings signed him as a #6 d-man to a 1 year 1.5 million contract, that I would be open to. Long term at 5mil per year is not just bad, but an awful contract for Schenn.

Huge huge fan of Schenn and what he brings to the table but I would be fine with 3 mill per. The guy brings pugnacity and testosterone to a team and I also believe under the right circumstances he can be a tweener between a third pairing and at times (!) someone who helps out the second pairing type of guy.

Pains me to admit it but Luke Schenn wouldn't fix our defensive problems a steady stay at home defender who can chip in some offense here and there would be needed and those guys aren't available. That's why Holland has to move some of the better pieces to land one either via trade or draft. Really there is no other way around to fix this mess yes, the offense will need help soon too but the fact of the matter is the Wings are in a better - i.e. more depth - position in terms of forwards then they are in terms of defense.

[kliq 3,755]

Some on here love circular firing squads. Our team needs to improve, yet at the same time we can't live without any of our players...... But hey the early tee times are coming.

Now some of you young fellas a big into the new age statistics. if you use those Scheen would be our second best offensive Dman tied with Smith. It terms of points per 60 mins. The arguement isn't if Scheen is a top 50 Dman in the league-he isn't. The question is is he better than what we have? he would be our 3rd best Dman. You can balk all you want at 5 mil per year, but that is what the market bares. IE Ericsson at 4.75 mil and KFQ at 4.25 million. Both of which are older more mistake prone, and they are far less physical. Schenn has like 220 hits this season. We don't have anyone over 100 IIRC. That is a big and needed change.

Now from managements stand point I can see them deciding that Marchenko is our 4th Dman. He is already playing on the second pair with Kronwall right now. He is younger and cheaper than Schenn. But is he better? Good question.

For the record, I am not some huge Schenn advocate. he is merely an option that would make our defense better. Nothing more. He is also well under 30 which helps his cause. if he is signed to a 5 or 6 year deal, it expires in his early 30's, not late 30's like so many of our broken down vets have going on.

You are spinning what others are saying to you to justify your argument. Nowhere in my posts did I say that I didn't think this teams needs to improve the defense or that I was unwilling to part with anyone. What I was saying is that signing Schenn at 5 million/year is not a step in the direction of making this team a serious contender, what it does is handi-cap us even more with another contract that we dont need. I think you and I actually agree in theory that this teams needs an upgrade at the position, its what constitutes an upgrade that are opinions differ.

[Richdg 267]

You are spinning what others are saying to you to justify your argument. Nowhere in my posts did I say that I didn't think this teams needs to improve the defense or that I was unwilling to part with anyone. What I was saying is that signing Schenn at 5 million/year is not a step in the direction of making this team a serious contender, what it does is handi-cap us even more with another contract that we dont need. I think you and I actually agree in theory that this teams needs an upgrade at the position, its what constitutes an upgrade that are opinions differ.

Didn't spin anything. I have mentioned that Tatar and Nyquist can be moved in the right deal and others quickly say no we can't do that it would hurt our O to much. To get you have to give.

[Richdg 267]

BTW....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1765908-ranking-the-top-25-defensive-players-in-the-nhl/page/2

How many of our Dmen have ever been considered top 25 by anyone defensively? Now granted that is one writers opinion, others disagree. But Schenn is a good Dman that has been playing on bad teams. He is also younger than Kronwall, Ericsson, Green, KFQ and Smith.

2 years ago we all had this debate about Stafford. He was available from the Sabres. But because his numbers were down, many thought he was done. Now playing with a much better group of talent with the Jets he is scoring 20+ again.

[kliq 3,755]

Didn't spin anything. I have mentioned that Tatar and Nyquist can be moved in the right deal and others quickly say no we can't do that it would hurt our O to much. To get you have to give.

Me saying "You are spinning what others are saying to you to justify your argument." was directly related to your comments that we need to change things up, but people don't want to get rid of anything.

What I meant is that I do not believe people are against bringing in a new d-man and getting rid of some forwards, but that they would only do this for the right d-man, not any d-man. To myself at least, Schenn at 5mil/year he is not the right d-man, to you he is.

But to say:

"Some on here love circular firing squads. Our team needs to improve, yet at the same time we can't live without any of our players...... But hey the early tee times are coming."

IMO is constructing a false narrative as I do believe that 99% of the posters on here would be more then happy getting rid of some of our forwards (ie. Tatar or Nyquist or Pulk etc) for what they deem the "right d-man". Again, it's just that very few if any believe Schenn at 5mil is that person.