Fixing this mess....

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

BTW....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1765908-ranking-the-top-25-defensive-players-in-the-nhl/page/2

How many of our Dmen have ever been considered top 25 by anyone defensively? Now granted that is one writers opinion, others disagree. But Schenn is a good Dman that has been playing on bad teams. He is also younger than Kronwall, Ericsson, Green, KFQ and Smith.

2 years ago we all had this debate about Stafford. He was available from the Sabres. But because his numbers were down, many thought he was done. Now playing with a much better group of talent with the Jets he is scoring 20+ again.

A 3 year-old bleacher report article is the best (only) thing you can find?

Well I guess that speaks for itself...lol

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm not Buppy, but I'm ok with not including Tatar in that cap. Said it before, I would trade him for a 6th round pick. What he brings is available for much less on most AHL teams in my opinion. Does not belong.

Yes he scores, when open and facing the goalie in the slot. More skilled than most, so can score when pressed for time and space.

But so can most skilled small players. Brings nothing but sniping and puck handling ability. Which we can get from young AHL studs for less than 1 million/year on short contracts.

He is a turnover danger everywhere else.

If Holland followed this logic a year or two ago Tatar would be in Edmonton, and you'd have your 6th round pick and Pulkkinen would be in Tatar's spot in the top six, who at the time was considered a sure thing in the NHL based on how he was destroying the AHL. In other words, you would have traded our second highest goal scorer away for beans and replaced him in the lineup with someone who can't even currently crack it.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Schenn is a third pair guy. Maybe an OK #4. Wings have lots of guys like that, they need a top pair guy.

[Richdg 267]

Schenn is a third pair guy. Maybe an OK #4. Wings have lots of guys like that, they need a top pair guy.

Trueth is we need both. With Green, Kronwall, and Ericsson all on the wrong side of 30 and not performing this year, the only Dman we have that is top 4 worthy is Dekeyser. The rest are not worthy or gone soon.

Now again I will bring up Marchenko. he has been playing on the second pair with Kronwall. can he handle that job full time? if the answer is yes, that gives us 2 guys for the top 4.

BTW who caught Holland's comments on the radio today? he was on the Huge Show as they were starting to role out Eric Zane's new show. EZ for those that don't know is the PA guy for the Griffins. Eric asked Holland: "Is there any one area of the team that you are disappointed with this season?". Long answer cut short was: yes, the offense and the PP. Spent a lot of time talking about how we were 1 or 2 on the PP last year and nearly last this year, and how the O went from 9th overall to 20ish this year. He didn't mention the defense at all.

[kliq 3,755]

Trueth is we need both. With Green, Kronwall, and Ericsson all on the wrong side of 30 and not performing this year, the only Dman we have that is top 4 worthy is Dekeyser. The rest are not worthy or gone soon.

Now again I will bring up Marchenko. he has been playing on the second pair with Kronwall. can he handle that job full time? if the answer is yes, that gives us 2 guys for the top 4.

BTW who caught Holland's comments on the radio today? he was on the Huge Show as they were starting to role out Eric Zane's new show. EZ for those that don't know is the PA guy for the Griffins. Eric asked Holland: "Is there any one area of the team that you are disappointed with this season?". Long answer cut short was: yes, the offense and the PP. Spent a lot of time talking about how we were 1 or 2 on the PP last year and nearly last this year, and how the O went from 9th overall to 20ish this year. He didn't mention the defense at all.

To be fair, if our PP was again #2 in the NHL I think we would be right up there with the Panthers at the top of our division, so its not as if he's wrong.

I think our biggest issue is that we are lacking a #1 legit D-man. Put Shea Weber on this team and that improves the defense, the PP, and our ability to hold the lead in the final 2min of a game.

[Richdg 267]

To be fair, if our PP was again #2 in the NHL I think we would be right up there with the Panthers at the top of our division, so its not as if he's wrong.

I think our biggest issue is that we are lacking a #1 legit D-man. Put Shea Weber on this team and that improves the defense, the PP, and our ability to hold the lead in the final 2min of a game.

True, but so would Gretzky. Neither are here nor are they coming. Same with Stamkos. So we need to look in other directions. I fear that the only way we will be looking is Grand Rapids.

[kliq 3,755]

True, but so would Gretzky. Neither are here nor are they coming. Same with Stamkos. So we need to look in other directions. I fear that the only way we will be looking is Grand Rapids.

I just used Weber as an example, I feel like you are missing my point. I dont think you can say Stamkos is not coming here, chances are against it but its not impossible.

[Richdg 267]

I just used Weber as an example, I feel like you are missing my point. I dont think you can say Stamkos is not coming here, chances are against it but its not impossible.

No I understand your point very well. Yes if we add "insert the name of your favorite superstar here" we would be a better team. That is true. Better players make a better team. That is part of why I haven't bagged on Babcock when he was here the past few years or on Blashill this year. They can only play the hand they have been given. The players still make or break a team. yes having a Weber makes us better on both ends of the ice. But he isn't coming. So we need to find 2 guys that can help for the same type of money-1 at F to help the O and 1 on the BL to help the D.

Stamkos IMHO is 99.99% going to stay in TB or sign with Tor. It has nothing to do with what we offer. Why would he come here? he can stay with a Cup contending team in a nice city with great weather OR he can go home and help his fav team as a child rebuild. Tor has bottomed out. We haven't yet. There is 0 reason for him to come to detroit. Yes I would love to see it happen. But I would rather be surprised that he comes than to hope he does and doesn't.

[anthonyn66 89]

I think I speak for many when I say that Schenn is not the answer to our defensive struggles...

[kliq 3,755]

No I understand your point very well. Yes if we add "insert the name of your favorite superstar here" we would be a better team. That is true. Better players make a better team. That is part of why I haven't bagged on Babcock when he was here the past few years or on Blashill this year. They can only play the hand they have been given. The players still make or break a team. yes having a Weber makes us better on both ends of the ice. But he isn't coming. So we need to find 2 guys that can help for the same type of money-1 at F to help the O and 1 on the BL to help the D.

Stamkos IMHO is 99.99% going to stay in TB or sign with Tor. It has nothing to do with what we offer. Why would he come here? he can stay with a Cup contending team in a nice city with great weather OR he can go home and help his fav team as a child rebuild. Tor has bottomed out. We haven't yet. There is 0 reason for him to come to detroit. Yes I would love to see it happen. But I would rather be surprised that he comes than to hope he does and doesn't.

When evaluating a team and trying to identify your biggest holes which for us is the lack of a 1A d-man, you cant have the attitude like you are expressing. You need to try to do your best and see if you can fill that hole. Again, yes I realize Weber is not coming, but what I would like the Wings to do this summer is try to go out and get a 1A d-man. I fully understand it is going to be a hard task, but you can't not try something because its going to be hard. That is the mind set that people and organizations that fail have and I dont believe the Wings are that type of organization. I am not playing "insert the name of your favorite superstar here", what I am saying is that we need to go out and find a 1A d-man, or someone who is close to becoming a 1A d-man. This is why I would like us to make a pitch for Trouba. When your need is finding a 1A d-man, having an attitude of "Well, we aren't going to get one so why bother. Lets go out and get a #5/6 d-man and pay him like he is a top 4 guy." is just going to to put you further behind.

As far as Stamkos, I agree that there is a very high chance that he is going to the Leafs or staying in TB, however to say it is 99.99% IMO is short sided. There are a lot of variables is choices like this, and as much as some of us like to believe we know everything, we don't. I have my suspicions about TB as if he was going to sign there, I would think he would have signed by now. As a Detroit fan, this situation seems eerily similar to Scherzer, Suh, and Babcock and there is a good chance it could play out the same way.

As for Toronto, just ask Phil Kessel or Dion Phenuef how it feels being the top player on that team. I could very easily see Stamkos not wanting to be under that kind of microscope especially after spending the early part of career in TB which is not even close to the same kind of environment.

As to why would Stamkos want to come here? If I had to give reasons, here are 3 off the top of my head.

1) We are a team with a ton of young talent (Mantha, Larkin, AA etc.) , and widely considered by most as to be close to being a very good team. If you can shed some of the extra salary from this team, add that 1A d-man and a player like RH scoring threat like Stamkos, there is not a reason to think this team cant contend if the youngsters can keep getting better. If I am Stamkos, I am looking at what a team will look like after I sign, and a Detroit with Stamkos, a 1A d-man and not really losing anyone of importance looks pretty good.

2) Stamkos is from Markham, Ontario. Playing in Detroit allows him to be about 4 hours away from home by car, 1 hour by plane. He can have family and friends come and watch him play, and going home for the holidays, birthdays etc. all of a sudden becomes very doable. Yes, living in Toronto would make it easier, but if he doesn't play in that market for the reasons I stated above, Detroit would make sense. Before you someone says it, yes you could make this same argument for Ottawa or Buffalo which are also potential landing spots for Stamkos which makes your 99.9% comment even more ridicoulas.

3) The history of the Wings. Looking up in the rafters and seeing names like Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk, Yzerman, Lidstrom etc. it means something. Regardless of the Wings right now, I do believe this is a franchise that players who respect the game want to play for especially with everything going on right now with the teams on other levels (ie arena).

None of us know how Stamkos himself feels. He may love the Wings, he may hate the Wings. There are so many variables at play here, that for us to say anything as if it is definitive fact, is just wrong.

Again, I dont think Stamkos is coming here. There are other teams that would be better then us with him on the roster, and just based on math alone the odds are against us. But if you are going to make statements such as "There is 0 reason for him to come to detroit". Hopefully I just explained to you why that is simply not true and just an exaggeration.

Lastly, to say we haven't "bottomed out yet" is implying that to get elite, you have to be the worst of the worst first which is simply not true. We literally did this back in the 2000's. We never "bottomed out" after 2002 in order to get to 2008, we rebuilt on the fly which is what we are doing now. I am not saying we are doing it successfully now, only time will tell us that.

[amato 3,210]

So you're saying stamkos is coming here?! kidding of course.

Great post though. I for one think he'll re-sign in Tampa (I probably would if I were him) but it'd make the off season a lot more interesting to at least see him test free agency first.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Great post kliq. I think we're on the same page when it comes to fixing this "mess"... We need to go hard after a top pairing defenseman to pair with DeKeyser, and Trouba would fit that bill perfectly. Young, local kid with great size, tons of potential, shoots right, is rumored to be available, and is in the Western Conference. This is the type of defenseman that you should be willing to overpay for and Holland needs to make a pitch that Cheveldayoff cannot refuse... That one addition would go a long way in fixing this defense. Adding more depth 3rd pairing guys does nothing to improve this team, and Schenn is not the answer.

Regarding Stamkos, I agree that there is a chance that he comes here, although I think it's very unlikely. But can you imagine adding Trouba and Stamkos this offseason? I know, I know, the chance of one of these things happening is slim, let alone both, but that would make us instant contenders in my opinion...

Larkin - Stamkos - Mantha

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader

Tatar - Athanasiou - Jurco

Helm - Sheahan - Glendening

DeKeyser - Trouba

Smith - Green

Kronwall - Ericsson / Marchenko

Mrazek

UFA

[amato 3,210]

No doubt those two moves would make us contenders.. I'm high on Trouba too. If we only added him, it'd be a great off season.

What did you trade for him in this scenario? Howard, Nyq, maybe a pick and/or prospect?

Or would Howard be a separate deal?

[krsmith17 7,191]

In my fantasy world... I would offer a package of Nyquist, Ouellet or Marchenko and a 1st or 2nd round pick... Howard would be a separate deal...

[Richdg 267]

When evaluating a team and trying to identify your biggest holes which for us is the lack of a 1A d-man, you cant have the attitude like you are expressing. You need to try to do your best and see if you can fill that hole. Again, yes I realize Weber is not coming, but what I would like the Wings to do this summer is try to go out and get a 1A d-man. I fully understand it is going to be a hard task, but you can't not try something because its going to be hard. That is the mind set that people and organizations that fail have and I dont believe the Wings are that type of organization. I am not playing "insert the name of your favorite superstar here", what I am saying is that we need to go out and find a 1A d-man, or someone who is close to becoming a 1A d-man. This is why I would like us to make a pitch for Trouba. When your need is finding a 1A d-man, having an attitude of "Well, we aren't going to get one so why bother. Lets go out and get a #5/6 d-man and pay him like he is a top 4 guy." is just going to to put you further behind.

As far as Stamkos, I agree that there is a very high chance that he is going to the Leafs or staying in TB, however to say it is 99.99% IMO is short sided. There are a lot of variables is choices like this, and as much as some of us like to believe we know everything, we don't. I have my suspicions about TB as if he was going to sign there, I would think he would have signed by now. As a Detroit fan, this situation seems eerily similar to Scherzer, Suh, and Babcock and there is a good chance it could play out the same way.

As for Toronto, just ask Phil Kessel or Dion Phenuef how it feels being the top player on that team. I could very easily see Stamkos not wanting to be under that kind of microscope especially after spending the early part of career in TB which is not even close to the same kind of environment.

As to why would Stamkos want to come here? If I had to give reasons, here are 3 off the top of my head.

1) We are a team with a ton of young talent (Mantha, Larkin, AA etc.) , and widely considered by most as to be close to being a very good team. If you can shed some of the extra salary from this team, add that 1A d-man and a player like RH scoring threat like Stamkos, there is not a reason to think this team cant contend if the youngsters can keep getting better. If I am Stamkos, I am looking at what a team will look like after I sign, and a Detroit with Stamkos, a 1A d-man and not really losing anyone of importance looks pretty good.

2) Stamkos is from Markham, Ontario. Playing in Detroit allows him to be about 4 hours away from home by car, 1 hour by plane. He can have family and friends come and watch him play, and going home for the holidays, birthdays etc. all of a sudden becomes very doable. Yes, living in Toronto would make it easier, but if he doesn't play in that market for the reasons I stated above, Detroit would make sense. Before you someone says it, yes you could make this same argument for Ottawa or Buffalo which are also potential landing spots for Stamkos which makes your 99.9% comment even more ridicoulas.

3) The history of the Wings. Looking up in the rafters and seeing names like Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk, Yzerman, Lidstrom etc. it means something. Regardless of the Wings right now, I do believe this is a franchise that players who respect the game want to play for especially with everything going on right now with the teams on other levels (ie arena).

None of us know how Stamkos himself feels. He may love the Wings, he may hate the Wings. There are so many variables at play here, that for us to say anything as if it is definitive fact, is just wrong.

Again, I dont think Stamkos is coming here. There are other teams that would be better then us with him on the roster, and just based on math alone the odds are against us. But if you are going to make statements such as "There is 0 reason for him to come to detroit". Hopefully I just explained to you why that is simply not true and just an exaggeration.

Lastly, to say we haven't "bottomed out yet" is implying that to get elite, you have to be the worst of the worst first which is simply not true. We literally did this back in the 2000's. We never "bottomed out" after 2002 in order to get to 2008, we rebuilt on the fly which is what we are doing now. I am not saying we are doing it successfully now, only time will tell us that.

All of the reasons you mention for coming here TOR also has and in some cases more. MLG is less than an hour from his house, TOR has more SC's than we do. The only area we might have an advantage is more young up and coming talent at F. That is a maybe that can be debated.

Now this has changed a bit over the last 20 years or so but every english speaking kid in Canada has always dreamed of being a Leaf and every French speaker grows up dream of being a Hab. Just the way it is.

As for the top pair Dman, we all want that. But will Holland act? We also want more talent/depth at F. Our O has sucked this year overall and it was largely the same group of guys. Same is true for the defense.

[Richdg 267]

Great post kliq. I think we're on the same page when it comes to fixing this "mess"... We need to go hard after a top pairing defenseman to pair with DeKeyser, and Trouba would fit that bill perfectly. Young, local kid with great size, tons of potential, shoots right, is rumored to be available, and is in the Western Conference. This is the type of defenseman that you should be willing to overpay for and Holland needs to make a pitch that Cheveldayoff cannot refuse... That one addition would go a long way in fixing this defense. Adding more depth 3rd pairing guys does nothing to improve this team, and Schenn is not the answer.

Regarding Stamkos, I agree that there is a chance that he comes here, although I think it's very unlikely. But can you imagine adding Trouba and Stamkos this offseason? I know, I know, the chance of one of these things happening is slim, let alone both, but that would make us instant contenders in my opinion...

Larkin - Stamkos - Mantha

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader

Tatar - Athanasiou - Jurco

Helm - Sheahan - Glendening

DeKeyser - Trouba

Smith - Green

Kronwall - Ericsson / Marchenko

Mrazek

UFA

Let's not put Trouba in the HOF just yet. Yes he is a talented young player and I would love to have him. But to date he is not a great player. In fact he is a second pair guy that could become more.

There are others that may also be available: Fowler was rumored to be on the block before the trade deadline, Shattenkirk is a UFA next summer and the Blues might not be able to resign him, the Yotes and Canes are in full blown rebuild mode maybe we can steal-and that is what it would be, a OEL or Faulk?

I am a little more worried about signing a Yandle do to his age/term/cap. Same is true for Weber BTW. he has 10 years left on his deal.... Yikes.....

BTW moving Howard. Yes it sounds good, but I doubt it happens. Mrazek needs more time to develop. Moving Howard is hard to do with a big cap number and over 30. If we have to retain 50% to do so we will not gain anything. Might be 1 million ahead on the cap hit after signing a vet backup. In that case keep him.

[amato 3,210]

In my fantasy world... I would offer a package of Nyquist, Ouellet or Marchenko and a 1st or 2nd round pick... Howard would be a separate deal...

That's about what I was thinking. It probably takes the first and marchenko. Unless there's something they like more about Ouellet

[krsmith17 7,191]

Hyperbole much? No one is saying Trouba is or ever will be a HOFer, What myself and many others believe is that he has all the tools and potential to become a bonafide top pairing defenseman. I like every other name you mentioned in that last post, so where were those suggestions when you mentioned Schenn? They would all make this team better, Schenn not so much. Anyway, all of those names have been mentioned here before and so has Trouba, but the reason I like the idea of going after Trouba that much more, is because he would likely be the least expensive of all of them and I believe his ceiling is just as high or higher than all of them...

[Richdg 267]

Hyperbole much? No one is saying Trouba is or ever will be a HOFer, What myself and many others believe is that he has all the tools and potential to become a bonafide top pairing defenseman. I like every other name you mentioned in that last post, so where were those suggestions when you mentioned Schenn? They would all make this team better, Schenn not so much. Anyway, all of those names have been mentioned here before and so has Trouba, but the reason I like the idea of going after Trouba that much more, is because he would likely be the least expensive of all of them and I believe his ceiling is just as high or higher than all of them...

Nope not at all. trouba is the most unproven and thus the biggest risk. But he is the type of risk we should be taking. Which goes back to Holland. Is he willing to take risks? stay tuned.......

[krsmith17 7,191]

Whatever it would cost to get Trouba, you can bet it would cost close to double to get any of Ekman-Larsson, Fowler, Shattenkirk or Faulk... I understand that there's risk involved in trading for Trouba, just like literally any player in the league, and yes, it is exactly the type of risk this team needs to take in order to land that number one defenseman...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

In my fantasy world... I would offer a package of Nyquist, Ouellet or Marchenko and a 1st or 2nd round pick... Howard would be a separate deal...

I think that's the only place that package doesn't get you laughed at. It probably takes a package starting with Mantha at minimum.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Apparently there's a divide in the habs locker room , radio here was going nuts that pk wasn't the habs nomination for the masterson award after he donated 10 million to montreals children's hospital

Said its ridiculous that the players voted for pacioretty to get the award and that he knows for a fact there's a divide there and people don't like ok ( which is ridiculous)

Think they'd be dumb to trade him, especially to a division rival and it would prob cost us a lot but depending on the price I'd go for him, he'll make some defensive mistakes but he's dynamic and can out up points and log tons of ice time

Love mantha and think his potential is high but I'd put him in a package , maybe the habs would bite at it cause it's utterly ridiculous how the people are here about getting French players ... Obviously would cost a lot more than mantha

1st ... Mantha ... Nyquist ...god knows what else

Anyways doubt habs trade pk they'd have to be completely stupid

[Buppy 1,720]

I think that's the only place that package doesn't get you laughed at. It probably takes a package starting with Mantha at minimum.

Mantha isn't worth more than Nyquist. The proposed package was overpayment, if anything, though it would likely take overpayment to get the Jets to trade him.

Whatever it would cost to get Trouba, you can bet it would cost close to double to get any of Ekman-Larsson, Fowler, Shattenkirk or Faulk... I understand that there's risk involved in trading for Trouba, just like literally any player in the league, and yes, it is exactly the type of risk this team needs to take in order to land that number one defenseman...

There's no risk in Trouba. At least no more than bringing in any new player.

While I agree that OEL and Faulk would be far more expensive, not sure than Fowler or Shattenkirk would be. Maybe a little more, but I'd bet not a lot.

Anaheim has found their offense since the new year, so I think it's less likely that they move one of their young D. But if they did it would probably be for something similar to that Trouba offer. Personally, I would prefer Vatanen, but any of their kids would be nice.

I think if the Blues were willing to move Shattenkirk, I think it would also be for a similar package. They've also been scoring a ton lately, so I'm not sure it's likely, but their defense and goaltending is better than the Ducks, so I think maybe a bit more likely.

The Jets are pretty much below average to downright bad at everything, so I'm not sure that package would be that appealing to them, even though it's more than fair. Hard to imagine they could get anything that would be more valuable than Trouba to their rebuild, but I'd think if he doesn't want to be there or they're worried about the expansion draft, they'd probably be looking for multiple picks. Like a Hamilton-type deal.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Exactly, that package "should" be enough, but like you said the Jets would most certainly be looking for massive overpayment. Nonetheless, Kenny should be making a pitch for him. That's exactly what I meant by saying "just like literally any player in the league"... Maybe "close to double" was a bit of an overstatement, but the point was that Trouba would be by far the cheaper of the options. The only other player that I would go hard after that I believe would be available, based on what we would potentially have to give up would be Fowler. I'm not that high on Vatanen, and for what it would cost, I wouldn't have any interest in him at all. I know there's little to no chance Theodore would become available, but he would be the kid I'd want from Anaheim...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Not that high on vatanen either , and don't think jets or ducks are gonna be willing to part with either of trouba or Theodore .... Only chance in hell jets trade trouba is if they got hamonic , so our best bet would be to get hamonic off the islanders and then try and send him in a deal for trouba

I think we should be targeting the ducks or flyers in a trade though for a dman , flyers got morin,sanheim,provorov and a few others coming with gostibere already there so maybe we could land one of them

Ducks besides Theodore have gabriel carlsson and an ahl defensemen that's doing well (name escapes me now) and a few other guys

Right now think the best thing would be to target a young dman who's unproven but has potential as for whatever reason we seem to be allergic to drafting one in the first rounds

Trade for hamonic to land trouba and/or target flyers/ducks dman that should be the plan