Fixing this mess....

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

We are going to be lucky to win 1 game in this series. The sooner everyone excepts the fact we are a below average team to better. In fact that is the exect thing I want Holland to see. We need some serious changes. The only way that is going to happen is for someone in power to agree with it, say it out loud, and then act on it. Otherwise it will remain the same.

Does this team need change? Yes absolutely ... Don't believe we're a below average team , regardless that the Bruins stunk the joint at the end , which we also did we ended up with 93 points ... Tampa finished with 4 more than us

That being said yes we do need changes ... We need help in the back end which we've all been saying and we need some grit and physicality for the longest time ... For years I been preaching Chris Neil especially at his prime and most of you hated the idea , which is fine(although I believe if he was a wing people would like him,he's old now so forget it)

We sign a lucic let's say and trade a nyquist in a package for a dman and maybe even Tatar in a seperate trade for a dman and were , as long as we get one and with ouellet in I think we'll be better

All that being said we still have a stupid coach who we all thought was gonna preach youth who's gonna be afraid to give our kids a good shot simply cause they didn't dominate the ahl , so who knows what will happen

Do believe we got the talent though

Edited April 17, 2016 by nyqvististhefuture

[Buppy 1,720]

I think people are reading too much into the comments on AA and Mantha. Taken at face value, the comments are saying nothing more than that expectations should be tempered.

A lot of people have unrealistically optimistic ideas of what those guys are likely to do, whether they admit it or not. Of course, those same people would be the first to defend AA and Mantha if they were given a chance and didn't produce, most likely saying "expectations were too high".

AA is exactly the kind of player that should be getting limited minutes. Most of the time he's on the ice, he's giving up more than he's getting. But every once in a while he'll pop off a great chance with his speed. Keep his minutes down and it's easier to shelter him. You increase the chance of getting the good stuff without the bad, and you have more premium minutes to give the guys who are more likely to produce a positive result.

Mantha .vs Andersson is a different story, but I don't think Mantha should be in our top-9 right now anyway. I would rather see Jurco in for Andersson (or just about anyone really), but I also don't think anyone would make any meaningful difference from the 4th line either.

[chaps80 1,591]

I know it was 6 years ago now, but wouldn't it be nice to have Hossa right now instead of an empty Franzen jersey. Holland lets the guy walk after a 40 goal 70 something point season.

[Richdg 267]

The problems mostly are old ones. For years we have been too small, not fast enough, and not physical enough. Now we have added our older players are dropping off faster than the youth can develop. Which was the very first post I made on this very forum.

We have to get faster. Many believe we have speed or are a fast team. We are not. We have a handful of very fast guys: AA, Larkin, Helm, and Dekeyser. But the rest of the team is average speed at best.

We are getting bigger, which is good. But most are not physical. Yes having more size and strength will help playing in the dirty areas of the ice. Watching Nyquist set up on our PP as the middle man in the 1-3-1 and getting knocked over all game long is sad. That is the position that Mantha is the most dangerous and he will not get knocked over. But we need more toughness. Only Abby has that atm. But he is very average at it. We need 2-3 more guys that can do whatever needs to be done.

The D overall is a mess. 3 old expensive guys that are hard to move-all have dropped off over the last 2-3 years in a major way. To many injuries, limited skill to begin with, and guys that never where as good as many thought. But for now we are in fact stuck with them.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

The sad thing about this whole mess is that we had both Nill and Yzerman in-house and we kept Holland around and let them leave. In one season Nill brought in Sequin and Spezza and in seasons since put great pieces around them. Yzerman has also done great things in Tampa as is obvious to all wings fans right now. Holland has put the same s*** out there every year and let it go stale.

[chaps80 1,591]

That trade Nill pulled off for Seguin was a ******* steal.

[amato 3,210]

The Bruins are REALLY good at trades

[Richdg 267]

One area that I will give some credit to Holland for is managing the cap. He has done a fairly good job to date. Yes it could blow up in his face if Z retires anytime soon and we do have some contracts that are hard to move. But each of the next 5 summers we will have enough space to resign our own players and add a few pieces. This year the cap is 71.4 million. The NHLPA has a clause in the CBA that they can activate every year that requires a minimum 5% cap increase. So next year the cap will be a min. of 74.97 million. for each following year the caps will be: 78.72, 82.65, and 86.78 mil. That gets us through the 2019/2020 season.

For this summer after our RFA's are resigned will could have as much as 16.4 mill. to spend if we move out Tatar, Nyquist, Pulk, and Smith. Those 4 are our trade pieces to find a top pair Dman. then add 2-3 F's that bring size, toughness and scoring.

Next summer we should have about 11 mil. to spend when Datsyuk's contract ends and the cap increase. That is also when Kronwall's contact changes from a full NTC to a limited one where he could be moved. Moving him would give us up to 14.5 mill to spend next summer.

Summer of 2018 we have another cap increase and Green can go. That would give us almost 10 mil to spend.

Summer of 2019 another cap increase, Howard's deal ends, and now we can buy out Ericsson. That gives us just over 12 mil. to spend.

Summer 2020 we should have about 14 million to spend. Cap increase+buyout Z, and if done right one of the contracts for a UFA from this summer.

Each summer we should have enough money to resign our own player(s) and maybe add 1 major piece via UFA or trade.

[Richdg 267]

If my math is correct and I can only use the info out there, is it possible to add backes, Lucic, Martin, and trouba in one off season? Yes it is. Try this lineup for the 2016 season with cap hits.

Abby 4.25-Larkin .925-Backes 5.5

Lucic 5-AA .630-Mantha .865

Jurco .9-Z 6.1-Svechnikov-.925

Martin 2-Sheahan 2-Glendening .63

Miller 1

Dekeyser 5.5-Trouba 4

Kronwall 4.75-Marchenko 1

Ericsson 4.25-Green 6

Oullett .72-Sproul .75

Mrazek 3

Howard 5.3

Dead money for Datsyuk+Weiss 8.6 million.

Cap is 74.97 million. We have a cap of: 74.60.

We then have Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, and Pulk to put a package together to trade for Trouba.

Summer of 2017 if we move Kronwall we would then have 15.75 to resign our guys and sign another big name to help the blueline and replace Kornwall.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

If my math is correct and I can only use the info out there, is it possible to add backes, Lucic, Martin, and trouba in one off season? Yes it is. Try this lineup for the 2016 season with cap hits.

Abby 4.25-Larkin .925-Backes 5.5

Lucic 5-AA .630-Mantha .865

Jurco .9-Z 6.1-Svechnikov-.925

Martin 2-Sheahan 2-Glendening .63

Miller 1

Dekeyser 5.5-Trouba 4

Kronwall 4.75-Marchenko 1

Ericsson 4.25-Green 6

Oullett .72-Sproul .75

Mrazek 3

Howard 5.3

Dead money for Datsyuk+Weiss 8.6 million.

Cap is 74.97 million. We have a cap of: 74.60.

We then have Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, and Pulk to put a package together to trade for Trouba.

Summer of 2017 if we move Kronwall we would then have 15.75 to resign our guys and sign another big name to help the blueline and replace Kornwall.

Problem is Lucic makes $6M now, I don't think he'll take a pay cut, let alone to come here.

I know his salary only says $3.5M in LA, but Boston is also still paying him $2.5M.

Edited April 17, 2016 by LeftWinger

[Aethernum 276]

If my math is correct and I can only use the info out there, is it possible to add backes, Lucic, Martin, and trouba in one off season? Yes it is. Try this lineup for the 2016 season with cap hits.

Abby 4.25-Larkin .925-Backes 5.5

Lucic 5-AA .630-Mantha .865

Jurco .9-Z 6.1-Svechnikov-.925

Martin 2-Sheahan 2-Glendening .63

Miller 1

Dekeyser 5.5-Trouba 4

Kronwall 4.75-Marchenko 1

Ericsson 4.25-Green 6

Oullett .72-Sproul .75

Mrazek 3

Howard 5.3

Dead money for Datsyuk+Weiss 8.6 million.

Cap is 74.97 million. We have a cap of: 74.60.

We then have Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, and Pulk to put a package together to trade for Trouba.

Summer of 2017 if we move Kronwall we would then have 15.75 to resign our guys and sign another big name to help the blueline and replace Kornwall.

So many things wrong with this.

Lucic's current salary hit is already $6M (Boston retains $2.75M of his salary). You think a 27-year old winger is taking a pay cut to come play here? Or that St. Louis won't match $5.5/yr to keep their captain?

For our guys: I don't know why you think Miller is going to take a pay cut to be a healthy scratch every night. Marchenko's agent doesn't let him sign for less than $2M/yr if he knows he is a second pairing defenseman. Sheahan at $2M is maybe somewhat more reasonable, but still unlikely - I'd say Sheahan signs for between $2.5M-$3M. Mrazek at $3M is also pretty laughable if he's our starter.

This is also assuming no retained salary for three players with a combined cap hit of $10.25M, and that we could trade a player (Pulkkinen) without, you know, resigning him. Come on.

The lineup looks fantastic - minus throwing Svechnikov and Mantha into Top 9 roles and just assuming it works - but there is a salary cap and other teams with money do exist. No one is just going to take $10.25M in dead weight off our hands and give over their best players in return.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Aethernum

[Buppy 1,720]

So many things wrong with this.

Lucic's current salary hit is already $6M (Boston retains $2.75M of his salary). You think a 27-year old winger is taking a pay cut to come play here? Or that St. Louis won't match $5.5/yr to keep their captain?

For our guys: I don't know why you think Miller is going to take a pay cut to be a healthy scratch every night. Marchenko's agent doesn't let him sign for less than $2M/yr if he knows he is a second pairing defenseman. Sheahan at $2M is maybe somewhat more reasonable, but still unlikely - I'd say Sheahan signs for between $2.5M-$3M. Mrazek at $3M is also pretty laughable if he's our starter.

This is also assuming no retained salary for three players with a combined cap hit of $10.25M, and that we could trade a player (Pulkkinen) without, you know, resigning him. Come on.

The lineup looks fantastic - minus throwing Svechnikov and Mantha into Top 9 roles and just assuming it works - but there is a salary cap and other teams with money do exist. No one is just going to take $10.25M in dead weight off our hands and give over their best players in return.

I don't think the numbers are too bad, and Nyquist, Tatar, Pulk (who's RFA, so yeah, we could trade his rights), and Smith aren't "dead weight" (gross overpayment for Trouba actually, though not likely the kind of package the Jets would be after). Trouba is probably the furthest off, and it most likely would work as given, but he also didn't move Howard or Datsyuk's deal. Might not be workable regardless, but it's not totally outside the realm.

The bigger problem I have is that that lineup doesn't look fantastic at all. Looks like at best it would be a little better, assuming Larkin and AA (and Mantha and Svech) can take a big step.

Backes and Lucic aren't any better than Nyquist and Tatar. 5 players potentially playing in a role over their head. Z probably declines further even in a reduced role (especially if playing with Jurco and Svech). Trouba is not such a huge upgrade over Q/Smith to offset that. Most likely I'd say that roster would be just good enough to avoid a top-10 pick but bad enough to miss the playoffs. And replacing a 26 yo with a 32 yo means we'd have another key player declining that we'd need to try to offset in the coming years.

[Aethernum 276]

I don't think the numbers are too bad, and Nyquist, Tatar, Pulk (who's RFA, so yeah, we could trade his rights), and Smith aren't "dead weight" (gross overpayment for Trouba actually, though not likely the kind of package the Jets would be after). Trouba is probably the furthest off, and it most likely would work as given, but he also didn't move Howard or Datsyuk's deal. Might not be workable regardless, but it's not totally outside the realm.

The bigger problem I have is that that lineup doesn't look fantastic at all. Looks like at best it would be a little better, assuming Larkin and AA (and Mantha and Svech) can take a big step.

Backes and Lucic aren't any better than Nyquist and Tatar. 5 players potentially playing in a role over their head. Z probably declines further even in a reduced role (especially if playing with Jurco and Svech). Trouba is not such a huge upgrade over Q/Smith to offset that. Most likely I'd say that roster would be just good enough to avoid a top-10 pick but bad enough to miss the playoffs. And replacing a 26 yo with a 32 yo means we'd have another key player declining that we'd need to try to offset in the coming years.

That's my issue with the Trouba trade - it doesn't make sense for either team. It's a gross overpayment of talent on our end, and it's a massive cap hit on their end for players they aren't looking for. Some parts of that roster might be workable if you assume Datsyuk's cap hit gets moved but it bothers me when people aren't realistic about what people are going to be paid. It's as if people think Detroit is the only team that exists and we can pay whatever we want and all the league's best talents will simply flock to play here. (That's the mentality that makes Toronto fans so irritating.) This isn't the early 2000s anymore.

I disagree with your opinion on Lucic and Backes - I think they're a pretty significant upgrade over Nyquist/Tatar - but overall your point about the roster is dead on. I didn't want to harp on that point too much given that I was trying to de-construct the numbers, but putting Mantha, Svetch, Jurco, and AA in your Top 9 is most certainly not a recipe for guaranteed success. That roster is, at best, a moderate upgrade over what we have now, and it makes zero sense within the context of the cap.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

The fix starts by trading the fat at the draft along with some extra players. You start it off by getting better by subtraction.

I know Kronwall will never be dealt, but I'd do it. Howard, Ericcson, one of Nyquist/Tatar, if you aren't going to play Smith, Jurco or Pulkkinen for petes sake trade them to a team that will! I could see Smith in Boston, Jurco in Florida and Pulkkinen in Edmonton. Do not resign the UFA'S except Helm at a nice modest price, maybe Richards if Datsyuk leaves and you strike out on the big name guys.

As much as I'd like to have Stamkos, the way we get manhandled, maybe we should go after Backes instead. If Datsyuk leaves and our center group is Larkin, Backes, Sheahan and Glendening, we would be better. Move Z to the wing (or retirement) and absolutely play Athanasiou top 6.

YES!!!

[krsmith17 7,191]

Trade all 4 of Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Smith in a package for a top pair defenseman? Trade Kronwall? Buy out Ericsson and Zetterberg? Yup, sure sounds like things the Red Wings should / would do... Also, like has already been mentioned, no way Lucic and Backes come here at any sort of discount...

People that believe we're going to have this massive turnover, are going to be very upset / angry when we ice pretty much the exact same team again next season. People need to realize that we're having a few down years, not because we're simply getting worse but that we are in the process of a rebuild. We're transitioning from the vets to the youth, not quite as quick as some of us would like, myself included, but it is happening. We don't need to get rid of half of our team and bring in multiple players. We need one or two key trades that will give us a top pairing defenseman, either one that is now, or more likely one that will likely become one in a couple years from now. We're not packaging 4 roster players to get that defenseman either.

Our roster is not that bad, and the Nyquists and Tatars (secondary scoring) are not the problem. It's our primary scoring that has taken a hit, and that will sort itself out once Larkin, Mantha and company develop into what we think / hope they will become.

I'm not worried about our future up front, but without a big trade on the back end, our defense looks very bleak. Make a smart trade that doesn't mortgage the future up front, and we could potentially be a contender again within 3 years or so...

[LeftWinger 4,934]

I agree, there are going to be tons of upset users here WHEN Holland doesn't do anything to better or change this team.

He won't trade Ericcson, Smith, Pulk, Jurco or Howard. He'll re-sign Helm to Abby money and term, he'll re-sign KFQ to $5M, DD to $6M, Mrazek to $5M and as soon as he hears from Dats he"ll resign Richards as insurance. Of course he won't trade Dats contract either.

All kidding aside, the nightmare is, there is a possibility that this team would be EXACTLY the same next year...and possibly minus Datsyuk.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I guess you missed my point... This team is in transition and people shouldn't be looking for major changes or a quick fix. We need to continue to build from within and just make a couple minor tweaks along the way...

We probably should be looking to trade a player like Ericsson, but with his no trade clause and not quite playing at the level of his contact, that isn't likely to happen. Smith should not be traded, he should be in the lineup. But if Blashill continues to refuse playing him, despite him being a much better option than some others that are immune to being scratched, then I'll agree, we should trade him. I just know if a team traded for him, a different coach would be able to get the most out of him and he'd be a very solid top 4 defenseman. Jurco and Pulkkinen should not be traded for the simple fact that their value is at an all time low right now. Jurco will be a very good top 9 forward (possibly even top 6), Pulkkinen I'm not so sure about.

I'd throw Howard's name out there to see if there's any interest, but if we have to retain a significant amount of his cap, I don't do it. Also I'd consider holding onto Howard for another year, if it means getting Mrazek significantly cheaper.

We should re-sign Helm, and he will not get anything close to Abdelkader money. I don't see us re-signing Quincey, but if we did, it wouldn't be the worst move we could make, and if we did it would likely mean that one of the other defensemen is gone. DeKeyser won't get $6M and Mrazek won't get $5M.

I still think there's a strong possibility that Datsyuk plays out his contract, but even if he doesn't, I don't see us re-signing Richards.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

I get what you're saying, I was just saying how THE nightmare could possibly happen.

[kipwinger 8,492]

I feel like I'm one of the few people around here who don't think we look too bad going forward. And that our "down years" aren't all that down. We will be as good or better next year than we were this year. Even without Datsyuk. Two years from now we will be really good. We've already got our next first and second line centers in the organization. We've got two higher end goal scorers in Nyquist and Tatar. We have quality supplementary power forwards in Abby and Mantha. And we've got a future franchise goalie. Our defense needs work, and even its not as bad as people think. We are in a position now where our old guys are too old, and our young guys aren't quite there yet. What we need is time, for our next generation to mature. That's it. Chasing guys like Backes or Lucid would only put this team in the same spot its already in...just two or three years from now.

All I want from Holland and company is to commit fully to the kids in the off season, and improve the defense if possible without losing anything significant.

[Richdg 267]

No one is going to take Howard and not have us retain a large part of his salary. Ericsson has a full NO TRADE CLAUSE. He isn't going anywhere. Our O dropped big time this year from last. What players are responsable for it? Z, datsyuk, Nyquist, and tatar. 1 is gone, 1 will continue to decline the other 2 are our best trade pieces. Datsyuk's contract isn't going to be moved unless Holland is forced to do so-which could happen.

Now some of the others. Lucic got overpaid by Boston after he scored 30 goals in 1 season. he hasn't come close since then. He is typically around 20. Guys that score 20 goals per season don't get paid 6 million + per year. A 5 yr 25 million deal is close to market value for him. Same with Backes. STL is cap tight. They have several good young players they need to pay. backes turns 32 this summer. Again a 4 year 22 million deal for him is market value.

As for trading for any good Dman, you have to give to get. We have up to 5 pieces we can use to make that happen: Nyquist, tatar, jensen, Smith, and Pulk. Do all have to go in the same move? No. There are 4 Dmen i would target: trouba, Faulk, Shattenkirk, and Fowler. We should be able to get one of them with that potential package.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Trade all 4 of Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Smith in a package for a top pair defenseman? Trade Kronwall? Buy out Ericsson and Zetterberg? Yup, sure sounds like things the Red Wings should / would do... Also, like has already been mentioned, no way Lucic and Backes come here at any sort of discount...

People that believe we're going to have this massive turnover, are going to be very upset / angry when we ice pretty much the exact same team again next season. People need to realize that we're having a few down years, not because we're simply getting worse but that we are in the process of a rebuild. We're transitioning from the vets to the youth, not quite as quick as some of us would like, myself included, but it is happening. We don't need to get rid of half of our team and bring in multiple players. We need one or two key trades that will give us a top pairing defenseman, either one that is now, or more likely one that will likely become one in a couple years from now. We're not packaging 4 roster players to get that defenseman either.

Our roster is not that bad, and the Nyquists and Tatars (secondary scoring) are not the problem. It's our primary scoring that has taken a hit, and that will sort itself out once Larkin, Mantha and company develop into what we think / hope they will become.

I'm not worried about our future up front, but without a big trade on the back end, our defense looks very bleak. Make a smart trade that doesn't mortgage the future up front, and we could potentially be a contender again within 3 years or so...

I agree about Nyquist and Tatar. I guess the problem was people had way too high expectations for them, after both came up I've said I would be happy if they can become annual 20 - 25 goalscorer so far that's exactly what they are. It's not their fault that they don't have NHL size could they some serious bulking up for sure? Is it possible I guess yes, with the right supplements of course and an NHL summer. But there is also a fix to this add someone with size to their line, someone who can and will create space.

Heavily disagree about the future. Z is done as a top 6 center, Pasha is about to leave, Kronner's decline is scary so that means, the team will need 2 bonafide top 6 centers with an excellent 2 way game. It's way too early to ask for that from Larkin, this would just be so unfair to him. Other than Mantha there isn't much highend talent left in GR, so were does that replacement come from? Stamkos is a pipedream at this point.

Buying out Z would be a dumb thing to do, sitting down with him and talk about the possibility of LTIR this or next year on the other hand would be smart. If people truly believe the last few years have been down years, just wait how this team is going to look without Pasha and the current defense...Holland either gets his fire back or else I would say it's time for someone else maybe Don Maloney. If this offseason turns out to be the usual one, people will see and realize why rebuilding 4 years ago would have been the smart move.

Rich:

Neither Backes nor Lucic are going to take such lowball offers, it's isn't always about the points. Looooch is bringing so much more than just points, guy is one of the last powerforwards in the game he will easily get paid north of 6 so will Looch and why would they waste their prime on a retooling/building team with an uncertain future? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Edited April 17, 2016 by frankgrimes

[Richdg 267]

I feel like I'm one of the few people around here who don't think we look too bad going forward. And that our "down years" aren't all that down. We will be as good or better next year than we were this year. Even without Datsyuk. Two years from now we will be really good. We've already got our next first and second line centers in the organization. We've got two higher end goal scorers in Nyquist and Tatar. We have quality supplementary power forwards in Abby and Mantha. And we've got a future franchise goalie. Our defense needs work, and even its not as bad as people think. We are in a position now where our old guys are too old, and our young guys aren't quite there yet. What we need is time, for our next generation to mature. That's it. Chasing guys like Backes or Lucid would only put this team in the same spot its already in...just two or three years from now.

All I want from Holland and company is to commit fully to the kids in the off season, and improve the defense if possible without losing anything significant.

In other words you want nothing to happen. Which by the way is what I expect to happen. Nothing.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

I would really love to see holland go. There is too much nostalgia and "loyalty" floating around right now. We need someone impartial to turn what aging guys we have left into assets for the future rather than losing them for nothing when the back wheels fall off. The roster and organization needs a culture change - I'm not saying everything needs to change - but this attitude of simply making the playoffs and no sense of desperation to win is trash.

[kipwinger 8,492]

In other words you want nothing to happen. Which by the way is what I expect to happen. Nothing.

Sure. If that's how you call it. Another is that we are transitioning to youth. Something you've repeatedly advocated. I'd let the old free agents walk. Make market rate offers to Stamkos and Okposo (no harm if they go elsewhere), trade Pulkkinen to move up as far as possible in the draft (selecting the best offensive defenseman possible), and pencil ALL of Mantha, AA, Larkin, and Callahan into next years lineup.

[KingBobCat 19]

Part of the problem with us trying unload these underperforming players is that we (the Wings fans) are not the only ones around that see that they're underperforming.....