Fixing this mess....

[Richdg 267]

I think the one thing, aside from replacing Ferschweiler, that we need to do is try to move up in the draft as far as is reasonably possible. Not into the top 5 or anything, but as high as we can. There are a ton of high end defensemen in this years draft and most have good size. None will go in the top 5. We currently draft 16th. Move up as far as possible and take the best offensive dman of the bunch. That's our biggest organizational need.we already have our future top centers and goalie, plus a ton of good wingers. We just need that future offensive guy to pair with dekeyser and we look good going forward.

You are correct about the need but incorrect about the talent. There are in fact 2-3 Dman that will get drafted between 5-15 that are going to be real good players. The problem is they are all 3-5 years from being ready. None of them is a guy that will be ready to play for us in the 16/17 season or even the 17/18 season. We have a need now. This is why I have long been on the draft F's are continue to build there and trade/sign UFA's on the D.

I remember watching TSN all day on July 1st, and they had Mike Green ranked as the #1 Free Agent. I also remember the year Weiss was signed, and he was ranked as I believe the #4 Free Agent. I think when someone has a point that they are trying to push, it doesn't matter how many examples you or I give, they will just give reasons to dismiss them. ie. "He doesn't count because he is too old, not in his prime, didnt work out, too long ago, he was unproven etc."

Holland has been plenty active when it comes to bringing in UFA's. Now, if the question was "Is Ken Holland bringing in UFA's that live up to their expectations?" that may be a different story.

You are tyring to defend Holland with a really really bad list of players. Most of those signings were fill, nothing more. When you have a weak UFA class like the year we signed Weiss, being 4th might as well be 50th. Many on this very forum knew and stated that bringing him in was a mistake. he was a below average top line guy for Florida, coming off several years of injuries, and BTW is STILL UNSIGNED. No one wants him. In fact I wonder did any other team really want him the year we signed him? It was a signing that seem to happen because he wanted to come here more than anything else. Also the best guy on the list: Hossa, he called Holland and convinced him he wanted to play in Detroit. Holland was not going after Hossa.

[chaps80 1,591]

I said not sure he likes to do it, not that he doesn't do it. But and this is a key thing. Your list is everyone he has brought in for the last 10 years. How many are in any way shape or form are stars? 1 was Hossa. The rest were way past their primes/trying to hang on, journeymen fillers, and unknown risks. This is something that should worry/scare all RW fans. If past performance is a predictor of the future we can cross every big name UFA off of the list this summer.

And Hossa wasn't even a guy Holland went after. Hossa's agent contacted Holland and of course he signed him.

edit- Just saw your post above after I posted this. lol

Edited April 24, 2016 by chaps80

[plopster 136]

There's hope... But holland won't do it

http://spectorshockey.net/nhl-rumor-mill-april-23-2016/

[Buppy 1,720]

I think the one thing, aside from replacing Ferschweiler, that we need to do is try to move up in the draft as far as is reasonably possible. Not into the top 5 or anything, but as high as we can. There are a ton of high end defensemen in this years draft and most have good size. None will go in the top 5. We currently draft 16th. Move up as far as possible and take the best offensive dman of the bunch. That's our biggest organizational need.we already have our future top centers and goalie, plus a ton of good wingers. We just need that future offensive guy to pair with dekeyser and we look good going forward.

I think we might be too high to make a meaningful move up. I think getting into the 2nd-tier, 4-10 range would be too expensive to be worth it. Maybe if Chychrun or Sergachyov is still there at 9th/10th it might be worth a look, but I wouldn't pay a whole lot. I don't think those guys are that much better than what should be available at 16.

If we're trading anything, I'd like it to be for another first rounder, or an early 2nd. Bean, Fabbro, Neimelainen, and McAvoy are all guys who could end up as good or better than the top D prospects.

[kliq 3,755]

You are tyring to defend Holland with a really really bad list of players. Most of those signings were fill, nothing more. When you have a weak UFA class like the year we signed Weiss, being 4th might as well be 50th. Many on this very forum knew and stated that bringing him in was a mistake. he was a below average top line guy for Florida, coming off several years of injuries, and BTW is STILL UNSIGNED. No one wants him. In fact I wonder did any other team really want him the year we signed him? It was a signing that seem to happen because he wanted to come here more than anything else. Also the best guy on the list: Hossa, he called Holland and convinced him he wanted to play in Detroit. Holland was not going after Hossa.

So many things wrong here, where to even start.

1) I never posted a list, you are confusing me with the poster "PavelValerievichDatsyuk". My post simply included Green and Weiss as examples.

2) The conversation going on right now between you and many posters stemmed from a comment you made where you said

"I am not conviced that Holland wants to or likes to bring in guys from the outside"

PavelValerievichDatsyuk clearly proved you wrong, so now you are changing your narrative. The comment wasn't, "Holland doesn't bring in effective Free Agents" or "Holland doesn't like to bring in top tier guys, again it was "I am not convinced that Holland wants to or likes to bring in guys from the outside".

3) Once proven wrong, you then changed your argument to say "How many are in any way shape or form are stars?" by this you are implying that Holland doesn't like to bring in stars. This is also not true. We all know that "stars" generally dont hit UFA anymore, so to go after "stars" is extremely hard/rare. But, when they have become available Holland has gone after them. Did he land them all....no, but again that is not the argument here, the argument is whether or not he wants to go after them. I used Green as an example because last year he was the #1 UFA (according to TSN) available, and I used Weiss because the year we signed him he was also one of the top 5 UFA available. Suter is another one, yes we didn't land him but Holland tried. Hossa is another one regardless of who contacted who. Again, the question is does Holland like to bring in UFA stars, if he didn't, he would have turned Hossa away. That's a silly argument, what GM doesn't want to bring in star players.

4) Weiss. Nobody will argue that Weiss panned out, it is clear as day that it was a bust signing. But what is unfair, is you reference his injury history as why Holland shouldn't have signed him. (implying Holland should have saw it coming) Weiss was coming off a year with a broken wrist. A broken wrist fully healed should not be an issue at all. Other then the wrist, he only missed I believe 3 weeks between 2012 and 2013. In Weiss's first year with the Wings, he suffered from I believe either an abdominal tear or a hernia, either way, not exactly an injury easy to predict.

5) You are turning the fact that he is not signed in 2016 into a point. Of course he is not signed today, the guy suffered an injury that it pretty much going to be with him for the rest of his career and he is now 33. His situation in 2016 which is that he is 33 coming off an chronic injury vs being 30 and coming off a broken wrist where he was expected to make a full recovery are just not the same thing. Its apples and oranges.

Weiss on Florida was a below average #1 center, probably one of the worst #1 center's in the league. To think that he was good enough to be a good #2 center, IMO was completely justified. Did it work out...no, but I dont think you can blame Holland for not seeing this coming. Do I think it is fair to say Holland should have re-signed Fillpula instead, yes, that would be a fair statement.

Edited April 24, 2016 by kliq

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

More of the same until Holland is gone. We've needed a trade to beef up the defense and pair down the glutton of similar type unproductive forwards for some time. Holland has hid behind the youth movement for some time now.

He is incapable of making the decisions needed to move this team forward and seems obsessed with spending time signing Cleary types while the real trade needed never happens. I'm done with this until he is replaced. The big decision

this last fall was does Larkin deserve a spot on the roster?? Really?? If that decision, which was glaringly obvious, is that difficult I have zero faith in other decisions requiring real analysis.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Mantha Larkin Svechnikov should be one of our top 2 lines going forward. I would be looking at getting that going next year, let them grow and learn as a unit, then we'll see a dominate line for the Wings for the next 5 to 10 years. Only problem is Kenny won't have the minerals to go with it.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Svechnikov is not close to being NHL ready in my opinion. He's at least one full season away, possibly two... Jumping from junior (especially the Q) to the NHL is not easy to do, even for the most elite of players. I wouldn't even be surprised to see him struggle adapting to the AHL at the start of next season, let alone the NHL...

[Richdg 267]

One of the things that concerns me is that we are going to start next season with a 23 man roster made up completely with guys the RW's already have signed. Would anyone really be surprised if we start the 16/17 season with this type of roster:

Nyquist-Larkin-Abby

Mantha-AA-Tatar

Svenchnikov-Z-Jurco

Helm-Sheahan-Glendening

Miller

Dekeyser-Smith

Kronwall-Marchenko

Ericsson-Green

Oullett-Sproul

Mrazek

Howard

Be honest now, how many would be shocked by this roster? I would not. It would also be a roster that breaks the streak.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Richdg

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yes, I would be shocked with that roster. First of all, Svechnikov will not be on the roster next season. Not going to happen. And secondly, despite Holland's reluctance to make trades in recent years, I expect to see at least one this offseason. Hopefully to acquire a top pairing defenseman.

[Superman54 91]

IMO if your not signing Stamkos then your probably not landing a #1 center anytime soon. This offseason in a big way will make it or break it for Holland. There have many many reports abouy how many younger top talented players you could see be available. Something this forum hasn't seem to mention all too often. Duchene should be the ultimate target and not try a bidding sweepstakes on Stamkos. This will be a very interesting off season with so many rumored players available via trade.

But you have to trade Pavels contract to make anything happen first.

If you can get a player like Duchene and give Larkin a center position next year you have a future star core right there, and zdawg can play on the 3rd line from then on. Ideal world really...

Defense is a whole different story though

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Ok, same friend, same source within the organization. According to him, the fans aren't the only ones at their wits end with Holland. The scouts are livid and are trying to convince him the team needs to be bigger and harder to play against. Holland's stance is he still believes he can win with small, skilled, faster players and is against that type of change...also the Ilitches are also getting frustrated with it, so yes, the Ilitches do care about more than just the streak, they want more Cups.

I hope this results in either Holland stepping aside or maybe he breaks his stance on the small skilled bulls***.

Edited April 24, 2016 by LeftWinger

[Richdg 267]

Yes, I would be shocked with that roster. First of all, Svechnikov will not be on the roster next season. Not going to happen. And secondly, despite Holland's reluctance to make trades in recent years, I expect to see at least one this offseason. Hopefully to acquire a top pairing defenseman.

Not what I want, but would not be shocked at all. With Holland openly talking about "building through the draft" the last couple of years and his intense loyalty to our guys, I don't expect much. I hope I am wrong. I would love to see 3 big moves trades+UFA's this summer.

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

I swear this is ground hog day every year....

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I swear this is ground hog day every year....

Except this year no one here will be complaining about Franzen's contract or us bringing back Cleary.

(I'm going to pre-empt someone's joke of "don't speak too soon.")

[krsmith17 7,191]

Superman, Duchene would be an interesting option if Datsyuk ends up leaving, and Holland trades his contract. Despite what Kenny has said, I do think he would move the contract. I think he may just be saying that he won't, in hopes that Pav would feel more obliged to stick it out for the last year... Who knows though. And despite what some people think, that there's still a lot of animosity between the Red Wings and Avalanche, and there's no way they'll ever make a direct trade with one another, I don't buy that.

With MacKinnon poised to take over the number one center role full time, and due for a significant raise this summer, as well as decent center depth with Soderberg and Grigorenko more than capable of filling their 2/3 slots, they may entertain moving Duchene for the right pieces. What those pieces are, I have no idea. I do know, that they don't have a whole lot of depth on the wings, besides Landeskog and Iginla, who is getting up their in age, they don't have much else. Maybe a package including Nyquist, Marchenko / Ouellet, and a high draft pick could get the conversation started...

Although I'm still not convinced Datsyuk is leaving, if he does, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if we had Duchene, Larkin, Sheahan, Glendening down the middle...

[amato 3,210]

Duchene in a wings sweater would be amazing! He's one of my favorite players.

But yeah, as long as sakic and Roy are running the show in Colorado, it'll take a three team trade to get it done. Hell, we had to go through Tampa just to get Kyle Quincey

[krsmith17 7,191]

I don't think we had to go through Tampa to get Quincey because the Wings and Avalanche are not willing to trade with each other, I think that's just the way it happened to go down. Three way trades do happen in the NHL, and I would say unwillingness to trade with a particular team or GM because of a rivalry that died 10+ years ago is never the case. The only objective in any GM making a trade is to do what he feels will better his team. The only situation a GM should maybe be a little wary about his trading partner in my opinion, is when they are current divisional rivals, and I don't even think that's as big a thing as some make it out to be...

[Richdg 267]

Except this year no one here will be complaining about Franzen's contract or us bringing back Cleary.

(I'm going to pre-empt someone's joke of "don't speak too soon.")

Hmmm.... Cleary is still under contract witht he RW's, he just happens to be playing in GR........

Ok, same friend, same source within the organization. According to him, the fans aren't the only ones at their wits end with Holland. The scouts are livid and are trying to convince him the team needs to be bigger and harder to play against. Holland's stance is he still believes he can win with small, skilled, faster players and is against that type of change...also the Ilitches are also getting frustrated with it, so yes, the Ilitches do care about more than just the streak, they want more Cups.

I hope this results in either Holland stepping aside or maybe he breaks his stance on the small skilled bulls***.

While I agree with the thought and would be welcoming to change, I am going to call BS here a bit. The last 3 drafts do not fit into the "small skilled Euro" camp. Mantha 6-5/213 French Canadian, Larkin 6-1/190 American, Svechnikov 6-2/205 Russian. That does counter the claims dramaticlly. Yes we all know someone somewhere that tells us things. But doesn't mean it is correct.

[krsmith17 7,191]

In the past 5 drafts we have drafted 1 player out of 36 under 6'0", (2015 3rd round pick - Vili Saarijarvi), quite a few are 6'2" or taller, and we have a few monsters at 6'5" / 6'6", but people still like to say that we need to get bigger... We've been going with that philosophy for the past five years... It takes time...

[kipwinger 8,521]

I think we might be too high to make a meaningful move up. I think getting into the 2nd-tier, 4-10 range would be too expensive to be worth it. Maybe if Chychrun or Sergachyov is still there at 9th/10th it might be worth a look, but I wouldn't pay a whole lot. I don't think those guys are that much better than what should be available at 16.

If we're trading anything, I'd like it to be for another first rounder, or an early 2nd. Bean, Fabbro, Neimelainen, and McAvoy are all guys who could end up as good or better than the top D prospects.

I'll take your word for it in terms of the quality of these guys. I havent seen most of them play. I just noticed that 5 of the top 15 north american skaters are defensemen, and 3 of the top 15 euros are as well. But zero defensemen are top end in either the NA or Euro rankings. So theres a fair chance that the top defense prospects don't get looked at until 10-15.

But again, whether these guys are worth the effort I don't know. I don't really begin tracking minor league guys until after the season.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/zetterberg-ericsson-kronwall-all-decline-invitation-to-play-for-sweden-at-w?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I apologize again for generalizing that Swedes, more specific our Swedes care more about National Play than the Cup. Looks like I put a foot in my mouth with that post elimination post I wrote. My bad...

[kipwinger 8,521]

You're right though, I do like Bean and Fabbro at our current spot or even back some. Guess I need to do a deeper dig.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Maybe they are trying to get him to acqure/draft players that play up to their size. Most kids now-a-days (thanks to steroids and HGH and other chemicals in vaccs (different subject)) top out over 6' before they are 20. Doesn't mean they can play solid, tough hockey (or any other sport for that matter.) My kids is 17, 6'3" and wears a size 14 shoe, I'm pretty sure he weighs near 190 lbs....he'd be tossed around out there in the NHL. Not all 7 footers are good basketball players...

Edited April 25, 2016 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

No one is saying that because we started drafting bigger players that these players are going to make us better or harder to play against. Odds are against most players to make it, regardless of size. But the point is, the issue has been addressed for quite a few years now, and to suggest otherwise is just wrong. It's hard enough to predict which players are going to develop the skill to play at the NHL level, let alone which ones will develop the skill along with the edge. The best bet is to draft players with skill and size and hope they develop into players... Which is what this team has been doing for 5+ years now...

Edited April 25, 2016 by krsmith17