Fixing this mess....

[krsmith17 7,191]

Fixing this mess... with a 4th line grinder? Helm >>> Martin

I'd rather roll with what we have up front for one more season and concentrate solely on the defense. Go after a top pair defenseman and other than that, give the kids a shot and see what they can do with more minutes...

[Richdg 267]

Helm is not better than Martin. They are different style players, but for 3 million per year Martin would help us more than Helm will or has.

Others that could help that are UFA's:

Perron

Stewart

Next some RFA's that might be had due to teams having to resign others.....

[krsmith17 7,191]

I couldn't disagree more with that, but whatever...

[plopster 136]

I really think helm has digressed. He's fast, But that's about it. He was non existent the last two playoffs. Remember that time he killed off a 4 minute penalty almost by himself in the playoffs? Where's that guy?

Edited April 28, 2016 by plopster

[krsmith17 7,191]

That shift you're speaking of was an anomaly, not something he was going to do or be expected to on a regular basis. He's still one of the best penalty killers in the entire league. Also, even though he doesn't always capitalize on his chances, he is one of the top players in the league at generating scoring chances per 60... If we lose Helm, it will be a big loss, bigger than some think in my opinion...

[lwing 68]

He has said the right things, then done little to fix the problem. As I have said many times on the forum in many different threads, Holland needs to act. There is zero debate about this.

Such authority. Were you president of a debate club? Look around, there is no shortage of debate. You seem to have a way snubbing people who probably agree with you on major points. I agree 100% Holland needs to act and has not. I disagree in that he has said the right things, even this week. He always leads with excuses.

[Richdg 267]

Such authority. Were you president of a debate club? Look around, there is no shortage of debate. You seem to have a way snubbing people who probably agree with you on major points. I agree 100% Holland needs to act and has not. I disagree in that he has said the right things, even this week. He always leads with excuses.

Not sure what you are talking about???? Many of us debate without taking any offense to things, please join us.

I couldn't disagree more with that, but whatever...

We have guys like Helm on the team and in the minors. We don't have many/any rugged wingers in the system. That is the big difference IMHO. You need both and would never say otherwise. Vs TB it was shown once again how important a good rugged checking line is.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Who do we have on the team and in the minors in the same mold as Helm? Athanasiou is probably the closest thing, the difference is, he projects to be a top 6, Helm should remain in the bottom 6. If we're making loose comparisons, we have a player in the minors in the mold of Martin as well. If we want a guy that doesn't put up many point, is huge and just goes around hitting everything, let's bring up Tangradi... We do agree though that we need a good, rugged checking line, we disagree on what player makes that line better. In my opinion it's Helm over Martin, and it's not even close... Now, I wouldn't be completely opposed to Martin - Glendening - Helm, but I definitely wouldn't chose Martin over Helm...

[Richdg 267]

Who do we have on the team and in the minors in the same mold as Helm? Athanasiou is probably the closest thing, the difference is, he projects to be a top 6, Helm should remain in the bottom 6. If we're making loose comparisons, we have a player in the minors in the mold of Martin as well. If we want a guy that doesn't put up many point, is huge and just goes around hitting everything, let's bring up Tangradi... We do agree though that we need a good, rugged checking line, we disagree on what player makes that line better. In my opinion it's Helm over Martin, and it's not even close... Now, I wouldn't be completely opposed to Martin - Glendening - Helm, but I definitely wouldn't chose Martin over Helm...

Right now we have: Glendening C, Sheahan C, Jurco RW/LW, Lil Bert LW/RW, Natasiak RW, maybe Miller, with Person and Turgeron coming. All are 3rd/4th line types. All are good skaters and checkers. None of them is very physical. That is 8 already here or will be real soon. Then maybe Abby moves down to the checking line like he did in the PO's. He is the only one that plays physical. 1-2 more are needed that do.

Yes using Helm in the top 6 is/was dumb. He isn't a scorer. Why we used in that way speaks to a lack of top end talent in the top 6.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I have no idea what your point is here... You're listing all of these bottom 6 players when you're the one that suggested bringing in a bottom 6 player. My only argument is that I'd much rather keep Helm than sign Martin... Of the players that you mentioned there are only 3 that should be in the bottom 6 next season; Sheahan, Glendening and Jurco. Bertuzzi is at least another year away, Nastasiuk is likely two, Turgeon is likely three, I'm not sure if Pearson will ever make it, and Miller should be let go...

[Jacksoni 418]

I have no idea what your point is here... You're listing all of these bottom 6 players when you're the one that suggested bringing in a bottom 6 player. My only argument is that I'd much rather keep Helm than sign Martin... Of the players that you mentioned there are only 3 that should be in the bottom 6 next season; Sheahan, Glendening and Jurco. Bertuzzi is at least another year away, Nastasiuk is likely two, Turgeon is likely three, I'm not sure if Pearson will ever make it, and Miller should be let go...

The Irishman could make a case to belong in the top 6 I believe. I like what I've seen from him this season and I think there's more to be had there. Wouldn't mind him on the wing on the second line.

If bottom 6 I would like him centering the 3rd line.

Add-on:

Versatile piece to have. He has shown that he can center the 4th line quite well. He could possibly center the second line. Hopefully the coaching staff gives him a shot to move upwards and let him try to prove himself.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Jacksoni

[Richdg 267]

I have no idea what your point is here... You're listing all of these bottom 6 players when you're the one that suggested bringing in a bottom 6 player. My only argument is that I'd much rather keep Helm than sign Martin... Of the players that you mentioned there are only 3 that should be in the bottom 6 next season; Sheahan, Glendening and Jurco. Bertuzzi is at least another year away, Nastasiuk is likely two, Turgeon is likely three, I'm not sure if Pearson will ever make it, and Miller should be let go...

The point is/was that Helm is redundant. We have small fast good checkers. We need more big strong gritty checkers. Guys like Martin. Or Wilson or Abby etc....

[LeftWinger 4,953]

With the Blues and Isles doing so well, it doesn't bode too well for us to snag Backes or Okposo off the UFA'S list. Unless their teams offer them significantly less money than the next team, why would they leave?

It's going to be tough for Holland to score someone come July. Not unless teams who failed in the season or playoffs are looking to go in another direction.

Edited April 28, 2016 by LeftWinger

[BadgerBob 297]

I have no idea what your point is here... You're listing all of these bottom 6 players when you're the one that suggested bringing in a bottom 6 player. My only argument is that I'd much rather keep Helm than sign Martin... Of the players that you mentioned there are only 3 that should be in the bottom 6 next season; Sheahan, Glendening and Jurco. Bertuzzi is at least another year away, Nastasiuk is likely two, Turgeon is likely three, I'm not sure if Pearson will ever make it, and Miller should be let go...

Is Callahan just pretty much being written off as making it now? I don't follow the Griffins as well as I should, so I genuinely don't know.

[Richdg 267]

With the Blues and Isles doing so well, it doesn't bode too well for us to snag Backes or Okposo off the UFA'S list. Unless their teams offer them significantly less money than the next team, why would they leave?

It's going to be tough for Holland to score someone come July. Not unless teams who failed in the season or playoffs are looking to go in another direction.

Blues are cap strapped-or will be very soon and the Isles still have an image problem.

Is Callahan just pretty much being written off as making it now? I don't follow the Griffins as well as I should, so I genuinely don't know.

Mitch is one of those guys that is just a bit to small and a bit to slow. Too good for the AHL not good enough for the NHL.

[krsmith17 7,191]

In what world is 6'0", 200lbs. "too small" for the NHL? That's what both Helm and Callahan are and both can hold their own and hit like a ton of bricks. Helm is a great bottom 6 winger, and I still think Callahan still has the potential to be as well. I don't think we've completely written him off, but his time is getting cut short. I'll say if he doesn't make the team this year (he probably won't), he'll be done, either another team will give him a shot or he'll be a career minor leaguer...

[Richdg 267]

In what world is 6'0", 200lbs. "too small" for the NHL? That's what both Helm and Callahan are and both can hold their own and hit like a ton of bricks. Helm is a great bottom 6 winger, and I still think Callahan still has the potential to be as well. I don't think we've completely written him off, but his time is getting cut short. I'll say if he doesn't make the team this year (he probably won't), he'll be done, either another team will give him a shot or he'll be a career minor leaguer...

That is below average size. Also there is no way in the world that Helm is 6ft tall or 200 pounds. He is about 5-10 and 180. The RW's have increased his size over the last 2 years. Guys don't grow in the mid/late 20's. Helm does check, but there is no weight or force behind it. People fear his speed not the impact that he brings.

[kliq 3,755]

That is below average size. Also there is no way in the world that Helm is 6ft tall or 200 pounds. He is about 5-10 and 180. The RW's have increased his size over the last 2 years. Guys don't grow in the mid/late 20's. Helm does check, but there is no weight or force behind it. People fear his speed not the impact that he brings.

Wrong on both accounts.

Helm is 6 feet tall, 196 pounds

https://www.nhl.com/player/darren-helm-8471794

According to hockey graphs, the average NHL player in 2015 was just over 6 feet tall (73.1 inches) and 201.2 pounds.

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

[VM1138 1,921]

I don't think Callahan will ever make the squad. He's just never talked about anymore. At best a fourth line grinder, but I don't know if he's big enough for that role. I think that's what you guys are missing. Not that he's too small for the NHL, but that he's too small for the only role his playing style would allow him to have.

[krsmith17 7,191]

To say that 6'0", 200lbs. isn't big enough for a 4th line grinder role is ridiculous... Glendening is the same size minus an inch. That is the exact same size as Kirk Maltby, which is a guy I would compare Callahan's style of play to a tee... I do agree that the chance of him making it is not looking great, but it certainly won't be because he's "too small"...

[Richdg 267]

Wrong on both accounts.

Helm is 6 feet tall, 196 pounds

https://www.nhl.com/player/darren-helm-8471794

According to hockey graphs, the average NHL player in 2015 was just over 6 feet tall (73.1 inches) and 201.2 pounds.

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

That is what I said. The RW's the last 2 years-at ages 27-29 have magically increased Helms height. His entire career he has been listed at either 5-10 or 5-11. Now at an age long after men stop growing he is 6-0 ft tall. That is below average. As you just posted the average size of all players in the NHL is 6-1/205 pounds. So a guy at 6-0 or 5-11 or 5-10 is BELOW average size. Yes Average size changes yearly. But he is below average in size.

Now back to the point. Helm is 29, 5-11 or 6-0 and a UFA. Most expect him to want over 3 million per year. This past season he had 115 hits. Is he a better option for the checking line than Martin? martin is 26, 6-3/205 and this past season had 365 hits. Chances are fair to good that he can be signed for less than 3 million per season. Add to the question our current inventory of checking F's-only Glendening shows any grit to date, and who fits better?

[Jacksoni 418]

Tootoo is capable of filling this role nicely.

BTW - anyone know what teams might be in the running for a 'cap boost'? As in - any team Holland could trade Dats final year?

Same old chumps that are cheap and measly every year. Arizona. Calgary. A couple more but those would be your surefire bets.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

I hope we are offering a contract to Evan Polei this off season. 6'2" 227lb is the size for the checking line we need.

[kliq 3,755]

That is what I said. The RW's the last 2 years-at ages 27-29 have magically increased Helms height. His entire career he has been listed at either 5-10 or 5-11. Now at an age long after men stop growing he is 6-0 ft tall. That is below average. As you just posted the average size of all players in the NHL is 6-1/205 pounds. So a guy at 6-0 or 5-11 or 5-10 is BELOW average size. Yes Average size changes yearly. But he is below average in size.

Now back to the point. Helm is 29, 5-11 or 6-0 and a UFA. Most expect him to want over 3 million per year. This past season he had 115 hits. Is he a better option for the checking line than Martin? martin is 26, 6-3/205 and this past season had 365 hits. Chances are fair to good that he can be signed for less than 3 million per season. Add to the question our current inventory of checking F's-only Glendening shows any grit to date, and who fits better?

You said Helm is a below average player, and you were using said argument in an attempt to sell the point he is too small to play on the 4th line. When the average height is 73.1 inches, and he is listed at 72 inches, and when average weight is 201 pounds and he is 196 pounds, when you take in margin of error that's the same thing. Statistically speaking, Helm is not "below average", helm pretty much is the mean.

If you are going to argue conspiracy in that the Wings are tampering with height stats, I'm not even going to argue that.

[Richdg 267]

You said Helm is a below average player, and you were using said argument in an attempt to sell the point he is too small to play on the 4th line. When the average height is 73.1 inches, and he is listed at 72 inches, and when average weight is 201 pounds and he is 196 pounds, when you take in margin of error that's the same thing. Statistically speaking, Helm is not "below average", helm pretty much is the mean.

If you are going to argue conspiracy in that the Wings are tampering with height stats, I'm not even going to argue that.

I didn't say Helm was a below average player, I said below average size. He is below average offensively which is why he belongs on a checking line and plays that role well.

When it comes to listed sizes, this is true in all sports: teams lie. Always have. Guys are listed taller or heavier/thinner than they are. Same is true with speed as well. Football is famous for this. Guys in college are listed bigger than they are 95% of the time. Then they get to Indy and we see them shrink 2 inches and 20 pounds while driving over for the combine. Guys that are listed as having a 4.5 40 yard dash suddenly can't run any faster than 4.65.......