Fixing this mess....

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I didn't say Helm was a below average player, I said below average size. He is below average offensively which is why he belongs on a checking line and plays that role well.

When it comes to listed sizes, this is true in all sports: teams lie. Always have. Guys are listed taller or heavier/thinner than they are. Same is true with speed as well. Football is famous for this. Guys in college are listed bigger than they are 95% of the time. Then they get to Indy and we see them shrink 2 inches and 20 pounds while driving over for the combine. Guys that are listed as having a 4.5 40 yard dash suddenly can't run any faster than 4.65.......

Well if that's the case then the REAL average must be around 5-10 and 180lbs.

Since everyone exaggerates and lies so much...lol

Or does that only apply when it suits your argument?

[kliq 3,755]

I didn't say Helm was a below average player, I said below average size. He is below average offensively which is why he belongs on a checking line and plays that role well.

When it comes to listed sizes, this is true in all sports: teams lie. Always have. Guys are listed taller or heavier/thinner than they are. Same is true with speed as well. Football is famous for this. Guys in college are listed bigger than they are 95% of the time. Then they get to Indy and we see them shrink 2 inches and 20 pounds while driving over for the combine. Guys that are listed as having a 4.5 40 yard dash suddenly can't run any faster than 4.65.......

Agreed, I wasn't implying you meant average player. The entire context of our debate was about size, I thought that was implied.

I completely agree with what Son of a Wing said, if you are saying that everybody lies about size, then the averages fall, and Helm likely is in the same place that he is in with the "fabricated" stats. Bottom line, Helm is an average sized player pretty much to the inch and pound.

[Richdg 267]

Yes the average size is most likely overstated. But even if it is the average size is still bigger than the listed/overstated size of Helm. 6-1/205 (overstated) is still bigger than Helm 6-0/195 (overstated). Which again means Helm is under the league average in size. .

Now size in and of itself means nothing. Where it does mean something is in applying pain on the other teams D. If I am a defensemen playing vs the RW's who would I rather be checked by? Helm at 6-0/195 or Martin at 6-3/205? Martin is a much more physical player and larger player. Guys like him cause the other teams players to tire and get gun shy. That is what increases mistakes.

[kliq 3,755]

Yes the average size is most likely overstated. But even if it is the average size is still bigger than the listed/overstated size of Helm. 6-1/205 (overstated) is still bigger than Helm 6-0/195 (overstated). Which again means Helm is under the league average in size. .

Now size in and of itself means nothing. Where it does mean something is in applying pain on the other teams D. If I am a defensemen playing vs the RW's who would I rather be checked by? Helm at 6-0/195 or Martin at 6-3/205? Martin is a much more physical player and larger player. Guys like him cause the other teams players to tire and get gun shy. That is what increases mistakes.

Why are you changing the numbers? You did the same thing when talk about Patrick Sharps stats. You just make-up/change things to suit your argument.

It's 6'1, 201, not 6'1 205. I will say again, with margin of error, Helm is the mean.

I do agree that size does not mean everything (I wouldn't say it means nothing, it definitely helps). I would still rather have Helm then Martin if the $ is the same. But I think Helm will want about 3mil per, for about 4-5 years which I dont want the Wings dishing out.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

[Richdg 267]

Why are you changing the numbers? You did the same thing when talk about Patrick Sharps stats. You just make-up/change things to suit your argument.

It's 6'1, 201, not 6'1 205. I will say again, with margin of error, Helm is the mean.

I do agree that size does not mean everything (I wouldn't say it means nothing, it definitely helps). I would still rather have Helm then Martin if the $ is the same. But I think Helm will want about 3mil per, for about 4-5 years which I dont want the Wings dishing out.

Because every source out there gives different stats. The average size of the NHL is listed at different sizes on evey different site. Most list a heavier weight than 201. That was one source. It also goes up/down every year. There is no set number.

As for Sharpe I quoted what was up at the time. he went for 34 goals with the B hawks, then 16 goals, then 17-stats not updated yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Sharp#Career_statistics

The point remains that Sharpe is in major decline. His last 4 seasons were: 6 goals, 34 goals, 16 goals, got traded, then 20 goals. That is decline. Bowman was smart to move him and his large contract. Somehting Holland needs to do but will not.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Because every source out there gives different stats. The average size of the NHL is listed at different sizes on evey different site. Most list a heavier weight than 201. That was one source. It also goes up/down every year. There is no set number.

As for Sharpe I quoted what was up at the time. he went for 34 goals with the B hawks, then 16 goals, then 17-stats not updated yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Sharp#Career_statistics

The point remains that Sharpe is in major decline. His last 4 seasons were: 6 goals, 34 goals, 16 goals, got traded, then 20 goals. That is decline. Bowman was smart to move him and his large contract. Somehting Holland needs to do but will not.

Sooo you just made up a number? lol

[kliq 3,755]

Because every source out there gives different stats. The average size of the NHL is listed at different sizes on evey different site. Most list a heavier weight than 201. That was one source. It also goes up/down every year. There is no set number.

As for Sharpe I quoted what was up at the time. he went for 34 goals with the B hawks, then 16 goals, then 17-stats not updated yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Sharp#Career_statistics

The point remains that Sharpe is in major decline. His last 4 seasons were: 6 goals, 34 goals, 16 goals, got traded, then 20 goals. That is decline. Bowman was smart to move him and his large contract. Somehting Holland needs to do but will not.

If your just going to make stats up, I'm not even going to bother debating with you on this anymore.

As far as Sharp goes, there are a lot of issues with your assessment, but they are irrelevant anyways based on your point. Your actual point of Holland moving some contracts, that I dont even disagree with you on. I would love us to be able to move E and Howard, but not everyone over 30 like some want the Wings to do.

[Richdg 267]

Kliq, some things are set in stone, others are changing. Average size changes every year. The last 2 years the average weight in the NHL has been dropping. Must likely do to the enforcers disappearing. 5 years ago the average weight was about 210. The height continues to increase.

As for the Sharpe thing that was the debate we all were having. Bowman made the choice of moving an aging player with declining production to free up cap to resign his core. Holland refuses to do that. He extends those players. This is part of why the RW's are in the position they are in. Yes if Howard can be moved without retaining part of his contract, do it. If E can be moved do it. If not he is the best buyout candidate. Next summer Kornwall's contract changes and he can be traded. 2018 Green's contract expires. Those are the smart moves that should be made the next 3 summers. Any bets on how many actually happen? 1 is my prediction and I hope I am wrong.

[Buppy 1,720]

...As for the Sharpe thing that was the debate we all were having. Bowman made the choice of moving an aging player with declining production to free up cap to resign his core. Holland refuses to do that. He extends those players. This is part of why the RW's are in the position they are in. Yes if Howard can be moved without retaining part of his contract, do it. If E can be moved do it. If not he is the best buyout candidate. Next summer Kornwall's contract changes and he can be traded. 2018 Green's contract expires. Those are the smart moves that should be made the next 3 summers. Any bets on how many actually happen? 1 is my prediction and I hope I am wrong.

Except it wasn't really a choice at all. They had to dump cap. I'd bet if Holland had done that you'd call him an idiot for mismanaging the cap and putting us in that situation.

And that is not at all, not even the tiniest bit, part of the reason we are where we are. We have never lost a "core" player because of the cap, nor have we been restricted from going after top UFAs. Nor would clearing out every cent of "bad" cap space we currently have, by itself, make us better. By itself it would actually make us worse. Which is exactly what the moves Bowman was forced to make did to the Hawks.

[Richdg 267]

Except it wasn't really a choice at all. They had to dump cap. I'd bet if Holland had done that you'd call him an idiot for mismanaging the cap and putting us in that situation.

And that is not at all, not even the tiniest bit, part of the reason we are where we are. We have never lost a "core" player because of the cap, nor have we been restricted from going after top UFAs. Nor would clearing out every cent of "bad" cap space we currently have, by itself, make us better. By itself it would actually make us worse. Which is exactly what the moves Bowman was forced to make did to the Hawks.

To early to know if they are worse off or not. I would at first glance disagree with that. Getting Seabrook resigned is a much bigger deal and more important than keeping Sharpe was. But that is the Hawks and not the RW's.

Now you did bring up an important point about money not being the issue for bringing in UFA's. Again at first glance that may be true. But we are not sure. We don't know one way or the other why UFA's are not coming-the big names that is. Are we going after the wrong guys? Are we not offering enough money? Is Holland not going at players 100%? This summer we should have 10+ million to spend on UFA's after we resign our RFA's. More if we move Howard and Ericsson's contracts either by trade or buyouts. Next year we could have another 15 million to spend. The question become how is it spent? Signing guys like Helm or KFQ ro do we land a star or 2? We will find out soon.

If you go back a few pages, I gave Holland some praise for his cap management. We are in good shape overall and could be in great shape if we make some of the hard choices. That does not ensure that the top UFA's will come however.

[Buppy 1,720]

To early to know if they are worse off or not. I would at first glance disagree with that. Getting Seabrook resigned is a much bigger deal and more important than keeping Sharpe was. But that is the Hawks and not the RW's.

Now you did bring up an important point about money not being the issue for bringing in UFA's. Again at first glance that may be true. But we are not sure. We don't know one way or the other why UFA's are not coming-the big names that is. Are we going after the wrong guys? Are we not offering enough money? Is Holland not going at players 100%? This summer we should have 10+ million to spend on UFA's after we resign our RFA's. More if we move Howard and Ericsson's contracts either by trade or buyouts. Next year we could have another 15 million to spend. The question become how is it spent? Signing guys like Helm or KFQ ro do we land a star or 2? We will find out soon.

If you go back a few pages, I gave Holland some praise for his cap management. We are in good shape overall and could be in great shape if we make some of the hard choices. That does not ensure that the top UFA's will come however.

Seanbrook's new deal doesn't start until next year, and is only a million more than he had been making. Moving Sharp had nothing to do with keeping Seabrook. $4M raises for Kane and Toews is why they had to move Sharp (or maybe Hossa or even Bickell would have been enough, and both would have been better choices if it had been an option).

Yes, we are absolutely sure that cap space was not an issue with attracting UFAs. For one, let's stop acting like there's been some laundry list of great UFAs refusing to come here. Suter, Parise, Niskanen. Maybe Stralman. We reportedly offered Niskanen a better deal than Washington. Offered Suter a similar deal to what he got (and considering what we did to try to sign him, I'm sure we would have matched or bettered what he got). Maybe didn't go as hard after Parise, but not because of the cap. Stralman I don't think there was ever an offer. I think I remember hearing he told us he wasn't interested or didn't return our call or something. But he signed for a deal we could, and almost certainly would, have matched or beaten. Beyond those guys, we pretty much got all the UFAs we've went after.

[VM1138 1,921]

Let's not forget that word on the street was that Suter was coming here until Parise and their wives convinced him otherwise. So he definitely wanted to come here. And even though he didn't pick us he clearly wasn't avoiding us.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Word was he had a verbal agreement with Detroit. Wife, Parise and Heatley convinced him otherwise. That's when the "brass" got on the plane to meet him on his Wisconsin farm to try to convince him to still come here.

People always say that we lost out to his hometown, yet he isn't from Minny, he's from Wisconsin. His wife is from Minny. Before his signing one could argue that during his youth he actually spent more time in Michigan (Ann Arbor) with the USDP than he ever did in Minny. We lost out on Suter due to Parise, his evil in-laws and Heatley, who he had phone called and he had asked him if he thinks the team can win it all, Heatley said yes, we can and within a couple of season's.

[kliq 3,755]

Word was he had a verbal agreement with Detroit. Wife, Parise and Heatley convinced him otherwise. That's when the "brass" got on the plane to meet him on his Wisconsin farm to try to convince him to still come here.

People always say that we lost out to his hometown, yet he isn't from Minny, he's from Wisconsin. His wife is from Minny. Before his signing one could argue that during his youth he actually spent more time in Michigan (Ann Arbor) with the USDP than he ever did in Minny. We lost out on Suter due to Parise, his evil in-laws and Heatley, who he had phone called and he had asked him if he thinks the team can win it all, Heatley said yes, we can and within a couple of season's.

As far as I can remember, this has always been the story. Anyone who says its because it was his hometown are just misinformed.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Look I wanted Suter and Parise as much as everyone but the fact is they decided to sign elsewhere for hometowm reasons. Yeah Suter is from Wisconsin but his career took of in Minnesotta and his wife is from Minnesotta, same with Parise. I just hope the Wings are staying away from signing Vanek if the Wild decide to buy him out. The problem wasn't so much that Parise and Suter went to another place it was - and still is -t he fact that this front office had no blan B, C ready it was Suter or bust.

Now the way to starting fixing this mess is trading into the top 10 and get that young stud, known as Jacob Chychrun. But knowing our luck the Oilers will trade the pick for Hamonic and then take Chchyrun at 8...which gives them Nurse, chchyrun and Hamonic booom defense fixed.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

I'd sooner us trade up for Sergachyov, the kid is 18 next month and dare I say would be ready for 3rd pairing come next season.

[kliq 3,755]

I would love to get a player like Chchyrun, but I'm very nervous is taking a D-man that high. Most of the top end D come from mid round picks. Hopefully he falls in the Doughty/Ekblad category and not the Luke Schenn, Zack Bogosian, Tyler Myers category. We need a 1A type of player.

*edit* After re-reading my post it sounds like I am implying that we are going to get Chchyrun. I dont think that, I am talking in hypothetical's.

Edited May 3, 2016 by kliq

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Suter's career didn't take off in Minny.

2000-01 16 Culver Academy Eagles

2001-02 17 U.S. National Team Development Program

2001-02 17 U.S. National Team Development Program

2001-02 17 U.S. National Team Development Program

2001-02 17 United States

2002-03 18 U.S. National Team Development Program

2002-03 18 U.S. National Team Development Program

2002-03 18 United States

2002-03 18 United States

Season Age Team

2003-04 19 University of Wisconsin

2003-04 19 United States

2004-05 20 Milwaukee Admirals

His career took off in Ann Arbor and then Wisconsin. But it doesn't matter, family beat us out either way.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

I have a general question, which I haven't found on my (rather short, I admit ) research on the net....how is the cap system in the NHL in terms of maximum contract levels? What I mean is...I know more about NBA CBA than NHL CBA, and in the NBA, you couldn't sign your rookie coming of a 1 M last year to 10 M/Y on his next contract, because there would be a maximum he could get which would be lower. See http://www.cbafaq.co...larycap.htm#Q16 to be specific.

If you could sign let's say Forsberg to 7 M even though he is coming from under 1 M...then that might be an even better option than Stamkos.

To repeat my question from April 23rd...can anyone answer this?

[Richdg 267]

To repeat my question from April 23rd...can anyone answer this?

No rules for UFA's. For RFA's there are some. As long as a term offers the minimum increase required-then it becomes a qualifying offer. Most of the rules cover if other teams offer your RFA's and what they have to pay to the current team. I am not aware of a max limit, just a minimum to protect your interests. But I am not a CBA guru or even a fan.......

[LeftWinger 4,936]

I would love to get a player like Chchyrun, but I'm very nervous is taking a D-man that high. Most of the top end D come from mid round picks. Hopefully he falls in the Doughty/Ekblad category and not the Luke Schenn, Zack Bogosian, Tyler Myers category. We need a 1A type of player.

Jakub Kindl was taken #19 and look how he.....oh nevermind...

[kliq 3,755]

Jakub Kindl was taken #19 and look how he.....oh nevermind...

lol.....exactly. Its such a crap shoot taking any d-man in the first round.

[Richdg 267]

lol.....exactly. Its such a crap shoot taking any d-man in the first round.

Yes the risk is higher. If you look at most top 50 Dmen lists for the league, it is about a 50-50 split between 1st round picks and 2nd round picks.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

What's the chances Kenny trys to trade up in the draft? He'll kick the tires but the asking price was to high or will he stump up this year.