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Richdg

Fixing this mess....

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Building through the draft is fine when you're getting high end talent. Detroit hasnt had any proven high end guys for awhile though, especially on defense. Larkin looks like he has a good chance, maybe Mantha and AA. None of them are elite players now, though.

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i think this is the offseason that kenny has to fish or cut bait its time to stop being overly commited to the players and put everyone on notice changes need to be mad huge ? no but substantial for sure there is no excuse anymore to keep a team that cannot get by the 1st round im done with goose Q and E howie is great but needs to go somewhere else Mrazek needs to be the guy and get a soild vet backup to come in and take over when need be Number 1 D should be the 1st thing to go after along with a proven goal scorer or two focus on the young guys its their time now AA Larkin Mantha and maybe tats need to lead team in minutes Z is still are captian but needs to drop down the line and play less so he stays health for the remander of his contract i still see him playing soild on a 3rd line and he might even fit better there now id love us to get bigger too but if there was one person id hope we could snag this offseason its Stamkos it would be amazing to see what kind of change he could bring to the team and how much we could build around him and last but not least find a way to move dats contract by any means other possible ufa ladd for nice depth and if we couldnt get a good proven number 1 d grab yandle who could be a strong top 4

Tats Stamkos larkin

Mantha AA Jurco/pulks

shehan Z Ladd

nosek Glendening abby

Kronwall yandle

DD Green

Smith Marchenko

Xavier

Mrazek

Enroth

Edited by sjr2012

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I don't understand the statement, "at that rate it will take 23 years to even field a full roster"... I think 1-2 players on average making it per draft for any team is pretty standard, and I don't think any team ideally wants to bring in any more than 1-2 rookies per year...

I don't see the purpose of only listing the players we drafted that are currently on our team. If your trying to figure out our success rate in drafting I think a more effective way is to list all the players we drafted in that time frame that are currently or are going to make the NHL...

2001 - 0/7 < Traded 1st round pick >

2002 - 4/10 (Hudler, Fleischmann, Filppula, Ericsson) < Traded 1st round pick >

2003 - 2/8 (Howard, Quincey) < Traded 1st round pick >

2004 - 1/8 (Franzen) < Traded 1st & 2nd round picks >

2005 - 3/9 (Kindl, Abdelkader, Helm)

2006 - 1/7 (Matthias) < Traded 1st round pick >

2007 - 2/5 (Smith, Andersson)

2008 - 1/6 (Nyquist)

2009 - 3/7 (Ferraro, Tatar, Nestrasil) - (*Jensen*, *Callahan*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2010 - 4/7 (Sheahan, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Mrazek)

2011 - 5/9 (Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul, Quine, Marchenko) - (*Backman*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2012 - 1/6 (Athanasiou) - (*Frk*, *Paterson*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2013 - 2/8 (Mantha, Janmark) - (*Nastasiuk*, *Bertuzzi*)

2014 - 1/7 (Larkin) - (*Turgeon*, *Holmstrom*)

2015 - 1/6 (Svechnikov) - (*Saarijarvi*)

I think that would be considered pretty solid drafting if compared to other teams, especially considering we have never picked higher than 15th overall in that timeframe, we never had a first round pick in 8 of the 15 years, and our average first pick was 39th overall...

Also, like PVD mentioned, our current team is stocked full with homegrown talent. Last season, of the 29 players that played a game with the Red Wings, 22 were drafted by Detroit, another 3 were signed as free agents straight from College / Europe. Some have / will move on next season, and they will be replaced either by more home grown guys or via trade / free agency. Either way, a team made up of 85+% of home grown talent have to be doing something right at the draft table. We have been very good at drafting and developing and we have a pretty good stable built, however we do need to start trading some of these assets to upgrade in some areas, mainly defense. Whether or not Holland can get it done, we'll find out soon enough...

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I don't understand the statement, "at that rate it will take 23 years to even field a full roster"... I think 1-2 players on average making it per draft for any team is pretty standard, and I don't think any team ideally wants to bring in any more than 1-2 rookies per year...

I don't see the purpose of only listing the players we drafted that are currently on our team. If your trying to figure out our success rate in drafting I think a more effective way is to list all the players we drafted in that time frame that are currently or are going to make the NHL...

2001 - 0/7 < Traded 1st round pick >

2002 - 4/10 (Hudler, Fleischmann, Filppula, Ericsson) < Traded 1st round pick >

2003 - 2/8 (Howard, Quincey) < Traded 1st round pick >

2004 - 1/8 (Franzen) < Traded 1st & 2nd round picks >

2005 - 3/9 (Kindl, Abdelkader, Helm)

2006 - 1/7 (Matthias) < Traded 1st round pick >

2007 - 2/5 (Smith, Andersson)

2008 - 1/6 (Nyquist)

2009 - 3/7 (Ferraro, Tatar, Nestrasil) - (*Jensen*, *Callahan*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2010 - 4/7 (Sheahan, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Mrazek)

2011 - 5/9 (Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul, Quine, Marchenko) - (*Backman*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2012 - 1/6 (Athanasiou) - (*Frk*, *Paterson*) < Traded 1st round pick >

2013 - 2/8 (Mantha, Janmark) - (*Nastasiuk*, *Bertuzzi*)

2014 - 1/7 (Larkin) - (*Turgeon*, *Holmstrom*)

2015 - 1/6 (Svechnikov) - (*Saarijarvi*)

I think that would be considered pretty solid drafting if compared to other teams, especially considering we have never picked higher than 15th overall in that timeframe, we never had a first round pick in 8 of the 15 years, and our average first pick was 39th overall...

Also, like PVD mentioned, our current team is stocked full with homegrown talent. Last season, of the 29 players that played a game with the Red Wings, 22 were drafted by Detroit, another 3 were signed as free agents straight from College / Europe. Some have / will move on next season, and they will be replaced either by more home grown guys or via trade / free agency. Either way, a team made up of 85+% of home grown talent have to be doing something right at the draft table. We have been very good at drafting and developing and we have a pretty good stable built, however we do need to start trading some of these assets to upgrade in some areas, mainly defense. Whether or not Holland can get it done, we'll find out soon enough...

Yes we have increased our % of players that we drafted, and our record has gotten worse. Yes those things are related. As for your list why didn't you list every player we drafted? The only players that matter are in fact the ones on the team. Ok one can make a case for those traded away to bring in other assets. But how many of those assets are here? How many of our former players are even average NHL players? Very few. You yourself call Andersson a non-NHL talent.

You are correct about the 1st round picks. That does hurt us now after helping us in the past. Which is why I said the next 5 drafts are important to see how well we draft.

It is possible-not likely but possible than come next fall we will have a grand total of 4 players on the team from the 2001-2010 drafts: Abby, Sheahan, Mrazek, and 1 of tatar/nyquist/pulk. If Ericsson was bought out, and we make trades with Howard, Smith, and 2 of the 3 forwards, that is all that is left. Depending on the moves we could be a better team however.

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Yes we have increased our % of players that we drafted, and our record has gotten worse. Yes those things are related. As for your list why didn't you list every player we drafted? The only players that matter are in fact the ones on the team. Ok one can make a case for those traded away to bring in other assets. But how many of those assets are here? How many of our former players are even average NHL players? Very few. You yourself call Andersson a non-NHL talent.

You are correct about the 1st round picks. That does hurt us now after helping us in the past. Which is why I said the next 5 drafts are important to see how well we draft.

It is possible-not likely but possible than come next fall we will have a grand total of 4 players on the team from the 2001-2010 drafts: Abby, Sheahan, Mrazek, and 1 of tatar/nyquist/pulk. If Ericsson was bought out, and we make trades with Howard, Smith, and 2 of the 3 forwards, that is all that is left. Depending on the moves we could be a better team however.

Building through the draft doesn't mean every player on the roster. It doesn't even necessarily mean most of the team. It mostly means the top players. It is far easier to get top end players through the draft than by trade or UFA. In the entire lockout era there have been only a small handful of the type of top players we need who have moved teams. We're not worse because we've been drafting too much. We've gotten worse because the players we need aren't available.

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Re-read the first three words of my last post... "I don't understand". I seriously have no idea what your point is... Is it supposed to be something about how we haven't been good enough at drafting? I think I proved that theory to be wrong. We have been very good at drafting, considering our position at the podium every single year. And yes, you do need to include draft picks that are currently playing for other teams in order to correctly evaluate that...

Our record has gotten worse because we are in a rebuild. We are transitioning from the vets (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall) to the youth (Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser, and company)... Seriously, how many times does this need to be said? It's mind numbing that some people expect us to go through a seamless transition, or even improve while we're in the process of a "rebuild"...

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Building through the draft doesn't mean every player on the roster. It doesn't even necessarily mean most of the team. It mostly means the top players. It is far easier to get top end players through the draft than by trade or UFA. In the entire lockout era there have been only a small handful of the type of top players we need who have moved teams. We're not worse because we've been drafting too much. We've gotten worse because the players we need aren't available.

Disagree. We are getting worse because we are drafting worse. Go back a page and look at all the top 20 Dmen taken after the 1st round. Guys that we could have taken in the 1st etc.... Look at all the euros we have drafted that haven't even panned out at the AHL level.

Yes I agree with you on the building through the draft should not mean we are 100% drafted players. In fact we have too many guys on our team that we drafted overall. 12-15 draftee's should be the max. The balance then picked up via trade/UFA which is becoming tougher overall. But just because something is tough doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it.

Re-read the first three words of my last post... "I don't understand". I seriously have no idea what your point is... Is it supposed to be something about how we haven't been good enough at drafting? I think I proved that theory to be wrong. We have been very good at drafting, considering our position at the podium every single year. And yes, you do need to include draft picks that are currently playing for other teams in order to correctly evaluate that...

Our record has gotten worse because we are in a rebuild. We are transitioning from the vets (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall) to the youth (Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser, and company)... Seriously, how many times does this need to be said? It's mind numbing that some people expect us to go through a seamless transition, or even improve while we're in the process of a "rebuild"...

Like Holland you mean? LOL

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Each player that we "could have taken in the 1st" or we missed out on, there are 29 other teams that missed as well. There are also players that we managed to "steal" in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds that teams missed out on 2, 3, 4 times each. It happens. Hindsight is 20/20 and you can't expect to land every big name on the board in any draft. Sure, there have been some questionable picks, some that I haven't personally liked (Saarijarvi), but I trust that management know what they're doing...

When has Ken Holland ever said that he expects this team to improve while transitioning from the vets to the youth?

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I f***en hate when people always say ohhh we could of had that guy with the 48th pick instead of this bust we got! Stupid gm!

It's always nice to look back and what could of been but the same goes forgot every single team , what bugs me is hearing leafs media saying they traded seguin and Hamilton for kessel .... Id say yes likely seguin would of been drafted but no one knows who they would of taken in the 2nd round

Anyways like some have mentioned we traded away a lot of our first rounders and Lost guys to ufa like filppula hudler and traded guys like janmark(were gonna regret that deal for old man cole) and jarnkrok

Anyways I know nobody is "star" yet but there's reasons to be highly optimistic with guys like Larkin athanasiou mantha and some other kids we have coming up like bertuzzi svechnikov and a star goalie in the making in mrazek

Just have to get some help at d and just limit expectations for a couple of seasons while those kids get valuable playing time

On a sidenote .... If the wings get rid of Ericsson/Howard and get significant cap space I say we trade for Bryan bickell if possible and tray and get a 3rd or both of them and send them our 4th and a bottom prospect and send bickell to Grand Rapids if need be

That being said I know bickell is over paid but does someone know if that's the main reason he's not in the nhl now? For cap relieve? Can he skate enough to play? I know he had a big post season a few hears back and he's a big body that we could use , but I'd be more than content to get him and send him to the ahl if we could land a couple of 3rd rounders

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Disagree. We are getting worse because we are drafting worse. Go back a page and look at all the top 20 Dmen taken after the 1st round. Guys that we could have taken in the 1st etc.... Look at all the euros we have drafted that haven't even panned out at the AHL level.

Yes I agree with you on the building through the draft should not mean we are 100% drafted players. In fact we have too many guys on our team that we drafted overall. 12-15 draftee's should be the max. The balance then picked up via trade/UFA which is becoming tougher overall. But just because something is tough doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it.

I'll allow this point only if you're comparing our drafting now to when we drafted Lidstrom, Fedorov, Konstantinov. etc. And that was a special circumstance when we had a jump on other teams with scouting Europeans and Russians.

Since you're looking at the past 15 years I don't see anything that backs up your complaint. It seems like you're saying that we need more of our draft picks to become NHL players (but then you contradict yourself, saying we should have less drafted players on our roster?), but I think the norm is that you can hope to have 2-3 players, on a good year, that turn out to have an NHL career and our numbers are in line with that. Look at some other teams' draft history for comparison chosen randomly:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005404.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00006929.html

And those teams have years when they picked pretty high.

- From 00-12 Dallas had 4 years when only 1 player made the NHL (for more than a handful of games) and 4 years: 2 players made it.

- From 00-12 Habs had 2 years: 0 players made NHL, 5 years: 1 player made it, 1 years: 2 made it

I don't know why you have set up the 12-15 drafted player limit. They will almost always cost less because of either being RFA deals or signing a deal before testing free agency. If they fill the need it's the better way to go.

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Disagree. We are getting worse because we are drafting worse. Go back a page and look at all the top 20 Dmen taken after the 1st round. Guys that we could have taken in the 1st etc.... Look at all the euros we have drafted that haven't even panned out at the AHL level.

Yes I agree with you on the building through the draft should not mean we are 100% drafted players. In fact we have too many guys on our team that we drafted overall. 12-15 draftee's should be the max. The balance then picked up via trade/UFA which is becoming tougher overall. But just because something is tough doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it.

...

So wait, your original argument was that we were relying too much on the draft, now you're saying that we didn't make the right picks, but then in the next paragraph you go back to drafting too much.

I don't think you even have any clue what it is you want to say.

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Didn't know where to put this ....

I was wondering if anyone's seen chase pearson play?? I know it's early but Just by looking at the stats it looks like we might have found someone worth keeping an eye out for

He's practically doubled his point production this season ... 26 pts to 50 and his +/- nearly quadrupled from +9 to +33

Again , anyone seen him play and have any opinions on his play?

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I f***en hate when people always say ohhh we could of had that guy with the 48th pick instead of this bust we got! Stupid gm!

It's always nice to look back and what could of been but the same goes forgot every single team , what bugs me is hearing leafs media saying they traded seguin and Hamilton for kessel .... Id say yes likely seguin would of been drafted but no one knows who they would of taken in the 2nd round

Anyways like some have mentioned we traded away a lot of our first rounders and Lost guys to ufa like filppula hudler and traded guys like janmark(were gonna regret that deal for old man cole) and jarnkrok

Anyways I know nobody is "star" yet but there's reasons to be highly optimistic with guys like Larkin athanasiou mantha and some other kids we have coming up like bertuzzi svechnikov and a star goalie in the making in mrazek

Just have to get some help at d and just limit expectations for a couple of seasons while those kids get valuable playing time

On a sidenote .... If the wings get rid of Ericsson/Howard and get significant cap space I say we trade for Bryan bickell if possible and tray and get a 3rd or both of them and send them our 4th and a bottom prospect and send bickell to Grand Rapids if need be

That being said I know bickell is over paid but does someone know if that's the main reason he's not in the nhl now? For cap relieve? Can he skate enough to play? I know he had a big post season a few hears back and he's a big body that we could use , but I'd be more than content to get him and send him to the ahl if we could land a couple of 3rd rounders

We are not going to regret any deals. Get over the fact jarnkork and Janmark are gone. They wouldn't have helped us, and they certainly haven't proven anything either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That being said I know bickell is over paid but does someone know if that's the main reason he's not in the nhl now? For cap relieve? Can he skate enough to play? I know he had a big post season a few hears back and he's a big body that we could use , but I'd be more than content to get him and send him to the ahl if we could land a couple of 3rd rounders

Multiple concussions and the natural consequences thereof. (Not unlike Franzen's situation.)

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Needs:

A top 6 center (not old)

A top 6 winger who can forecheck

A #1 dman

This combined with the youth taking their game to the next level, the vets moving into reduced roles, and fixing the damn power play and this team is a strong one.

The up and coming core of this team is young enough that if Holland has to spend some assets to make these moves happen, there is plenty of time to restock the farm (note: this is not me saying Holland should clear the cupboards to bring players in, just that he has to be willing to do what it takes, especially for the dman).

Edited by marcaractac

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Needs:

A top 6 center (not old)

A top 6 winger who can forecheck

A #1 dman

This combined with the youth taking their game to the next level, the vets moving into reduced roles, and fixing the damn power play and this team is a strong one.

The up and coming core of this team is young enough that if Holland has to spend some assets to make these moves happen, there is plenty of time to restock the farm (note: this is not me saying Holland should clear the cupboards to bring players in, just that he has to be willing to do what it takes, especially for the dman).

Is there a team in the NHL that wouldn't be strong with a good power play, legitimate top 6 center and physical winger, and a top tier defenseman? I'm not saying you're wrong - in fact, I'm saying you're right no matter what team you talk about.

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Is there a team in the NHL that wouldn't be strong with a good power play, legitimate top 6 center and physical winger, and a top tier defenseman? I'm not saying you're wrong - in fact, I'm saying you're right no matter what team you talk about.

Obviously. A lot of teams already have these things, however. I'm just stating that these are the specific needs this team has. Some teams have great high end players and nothing else *cough*Edmonton*cough*. All non contenders have different holes in their roster to fill.

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I do agree that we need to add those three pieces, although I think one or two of the forwards can be added from within over the next couple years. I don't see us being contenders for another couple years regardless, so I'm okay with waiting to see what we have up front in Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou and company, rather than looking outside the organization for now. We should however be looking to acquire a defenseman via trade.

I think Stamkos ends up signing in Toronto, but we should at least make him a competitive offer. Outside of that, there's not a single center that I'd want us to go after. If we end up trading away a couple high end wingers in trades to upgrade the defense, I'd offer Okposo a contract, but outside of him, again not much out there. The only other forward that I'd be remotely interested in would be Boedker, but again only if we're trading away a Nyquist or Tatar... There's no chance St. Louis let Backes walk.

Either way, this rebuild is another year or two away from being complete. If we can make one big trade this offseason to land a top pair defenseman and continue to draft and develop, I think we'll be in great shape.

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Thx for that ... I'd still take a shot on him and demote him for picks since he just has one year left ... Obviously only if we get rid of Howard and other contracts and have cap space doing nothing

We need to get some draft picks and or sign/trade for some prospects and replenish our prospect pool

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I do agree that we need to add those three pieces, although I think one or two of the forwards can be added from within over the next couple years. I don't see us being contenders for another couple years regardless, so I'm okay with waiting to see what we have up front in Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou and company, rather than looking outside the organization for now. We should however be looking to acquire a defenseman via trade.

I think Stamkos ends up signing in Toronto, but we should at least make him a competitive offer. Outside of that, there's not a single center that I'd want us to go after. If we end up trading away a couple high end wingers in trades to upgrade the defense, I'd offer Okposo a contract, but outside of him, again not much out there. The only other forward that I'd be remotely interested in would be Boedker, but again only if we're trading away a Nyquist or Tatar... There's no chance St. Louis let Backes walk.

Either way, this rebuild is another year or two away from being complete. If we can make one big trade this offseason to land a top pair defenseman and continue to draft and develop, I think we'll be in great shape.

Ya I think the best thing is to give mantha athanasiou Larkin tons of ice time and let them develop and hopefully turn out to be really good players which we all believe they can be

I'd stay away from stamkos cause he will cost 10+ per and has blood clot issues and if he truly is demanding that he has to be a center I say pass

Okposo as well I'd pass on , would cost 7 I believe and I think he needs a star forward like he had in Tavares to make him a better player , and didn't he dissapear in the playoffs? I'd just want to be sure we give the right player(s) a 7+ cap hit

Think our best route is to let the kids play and to make some trades for defensemen and maybe prospects with potential and hopefully find a kid who didn't have a chance somewhere else and play well for the wings, I don't think this is the best ufa class and we should save our money for someone else at another time

I'd love a backes but I see him returning to the blues and I'd love lucic just so we can have someone who can strike fear into other teams players but I'm not willing to give him a 6x6 type deal ... Maybe 5 million x4 since we have some kids with cheap salaries now but I know lucic will get more on the market

Don't know about you guys but I'm anxiously awaiting draft day since I believe they'll be a ton of trades and names we wouldn't suspect to be traded to be in fact moved

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I don't think Okposo will get anything close to $7M, I wouldn't expect him to get anything higher than $5.5M. And sure, if 8 points in 11 games is considered disappearing I guess he disappeared... You must be thinking of a different player? Okposo has a ton of skill and plays a heavy style game that is good for playoff hockey. But like I said, I'm only going after a top 6 winger like Okposo if we trade away a couple forwards to upgrade the defense. That isn't likely to happen, so I likely would stay far away from free agency as well...

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I don't think Okposo will get anything close to $7M, I wouldn't expect him to get anything higher than $5.5M. And sure, if 8 points in 11 games is considered disappearing I guess he disappeared... You must be thinking of a different player? Okposo has a ton of skill and plays a heavy style game that is good for playoff hockey. But like I said, I'm only going after a top 6 winger like Okposo if we trade away a couple forwards to upgrade the defense. That isn't likely to happen, so I likely would stay far away from free agency as well...

Guess it was vs Tampa he disappeared , but to be fair so did most of they're guys I do think he'd be more valuable with a Tavares type player which we don't have right now ... And you could be right about him not getting 7 per but I think he gets at least 6-6.5 per

There is always a team that over pays to get players and I can see someone like Columbus maybe giving him that type of money since they can't attract guys to go there

Another thing I know you won't agree with but I'd sign radulov , more I think about it more I like it .... He won't cost us anything and I believe he can produce

AND God forbid we don't get in the playoffs and it looks like we won't by trade deadline and radulov is producing he becomes a valuable trade asset on trade deadline day and can fetch us top picks and maybe a prospect which we need

I understand the need to pass due to his past but I believe he deserves another shot and why not us? He's older now and has a family which is surely to have changed him in some ways

1 year deal wouldn't be a big price to pay and can fetch us a good return if we sadly don't get in the post season

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I'm not a huge fan of signing Radulov but I'm not completely opposed to it either. If it happens I wouldn't be too upset, if it doesn't that's fine too. However, I think there's a zero percent chance we become sellers at next years deadline. Holland will do whatever it takes to get the Wings into the playoffs in the final season at the Joe. That kind of scares me though... The last thing this team needs is another trade that sees us giving away prospects for one month of a past his prime player ala Legwand / Cole...

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I'm not a huge fan of signing Radulov but I'm not completely opposed to it either. If it happens I wouldn't be too upset, if it doesn't that's fine too. However, I think there's a zero percent chance we become sellers at next years deadline. Holland will do whatever it takes to get the Wings into the playoffs in the final season at the Joe. That kind of scares me though... The last thing this team needs is another trade that sees us giving away prospects for one month of a past his prime player ala Legwand / Cole...

Yup as you know I wasn't a big fan of both those trades and wouldn't want to see us giving up say holmstrom for another mid 30s ufa to be

I don't think we'll be sellers either but God knows what will happen right?gotta think one day our streak will end , hopefully in another 25 years but if it happens to be next season and say we're 10-15 pts away radulov becomes a valuable asset on trade deadline day

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