Mantha

[Richdg 267]

In the 10 games that the wings played with Mantha in the lineup the record was 6 wins and 4 loses. In the 3 games since we stopped playing him we are 1-2.

Yes Mantha had a -6 in the 10 games he was here. 3 of that came in the 7-2 loss vs the Pens. Who were his line mates in that game? Datsyuk and Helm. All 3 of those guys were -3 for the game.

Helm is not nor has he ever been an offensive player. He has great speed and that is about it. His best goal total since turning pro was with the Griffins-16 goals in 1 year. His best in the NHL is 15 in a season. Helm is a 3rd/4th line checker and that is it. That is all he brings to the game. Now that is not a knock on Helm. he is very good at those things and every team needs people that can play that role. But Helm is not a top 6 forward in any way shape or form. To use him in that role only hurts the team.

Same is true with Glendening. A great checker. But neither should log top minutes.

You know what they call teams with guys like Helm and Glendening playing in their top 6? Expansion teams.

[WingedWheel91 271]

In the 10 games that the wings played with Mantha in the lineup the record was 6 wins and 4 loses. In the 3 games since we stopped playing him we are 1-2.

Yes Mantha had a -6 in the 10 games he was here. 3 of that came in the 7-2 loss vs the Pens. Who were his line mates in that game? Datsyuk and Helm. All 3 of those guys were -3 for the game.

Helm is not nor has he ever been an offensive player. He has great speed and that is about it. His best goal total since turning pro was with the Griffins-16 goals in 1 year. His best in the NHL is 15 in a season. Helm is a 3rd/4th line checker and that is it. That is all he brings to the game. Now that is not a knock on Helm. he is very good at those things and every team needs people that can play that role. But Helm is not a top 6 forward in any way shape or form. To use him in that role only hurts the team.

Same is true with Glendening. A great checker. But neither should log top minutes.

You know what they call teams with guys like Helm and Glendening playing in their top 6? Expansion teams.

lol again - not sure what your talking about.

#1 - I never said Glendenning was a top 6 Forward. Please show me the post where that claim was made.

#2 - I agree Helm is not an ideal 2nd line LW - but neither is Mantha at this point (obviously)... And we have who we have.

#3 - Helm is more ideal on the 2nd line, than Mantha is on the either the 2nd or 4th line at this point.

This is what is happening - not complicated/not surprising.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[krsmith17 7,191]

How about we make a poll of who should be on the second line for the better chance for us to win against Tampa, Helm or Mantha... Or better yet who should be in the lineup Mantha or Andersson, since that's where all this started... I know there aren't many LGWers as knowledgeable as you with your NCAA career and all, but I'd be curious to see what others think...

Edited April 12, 2016 by krsmith17

[WingedWheel91 271]

How about we make a poll of who should be on the second line for the better chance for us to win against Tampa, Helm or Mantha... Or better yet who should be in the lineup Mantha or Andersson, since that's where all this started... I know there aren't many LGWers as knowledgeable as you with your NCAA career and all, but I'd be curious to see what others think...

lol grow up pal.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Haha me grow up? You're the one that attempts to talk down on someone because you don't think they played the game at a high level, which obviously means they aren't knowledgeable about the game of hockey... I'm just suggesting a poll because I would bet any amount of money that the majority would rather have Mantha in the lineup over Andersson...

[WingedWheel91 271]

Haha me grow up? You're the one that attempts to talk down on someone because you don't think they played the game at a high level, which obviously means they aren't knowledgeable about the game of hockey... I'm just suggesting a poll because I would bet any amount of money that the majority would rather have Mantha in the lineup over Andersson...

The same amount of money you said (last week) you would bet on Pavel Datsyuk returning next season?

Funny how your tune changed on that one - just like it will about Mantha when we win this series against TB.

#knowledge.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[krsmith17 7,191]

Oh I wasn't aware Datsyuk didn't (past tense) return next (future tense) season...

Care to make a friendly wager on both? Haha

[WingedWheel91 271]

Oh I wasn't aware Datsyuk didn't (past tense) return next (future tense) season...

Care to make a friendly wager on both? Haha

No because I actually agree that most people on this forum would vote for Mantha over Andersson lol.

It's "Whipping boy" vs "Future Star" - who wouldn't ?

But in my opinion, it doesn't mean that today Mantha is the better option - especially in a playoff environment.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Haha whatever, I'm done with this conversation... I still find it quite funny that you think Andersson brings more to the table than Mantha, but whatever, matter of opinion I guess...

[Richdg 267]

2015/16 points per 60 mins of game time for the RW under all conditions:

AA 2.52

Tatar 2.32

Franzen 2.32

Datsyuk 2.22

Nyquist 2.07

larkin 2.04

Z 1.92

Pulk 1.73

Richards 1.67

Abby 1.67

Mantha 1.54

Helm 1.34

Sheahan 1.22

Glendening 1.02

Jurco .89

Andersson .69

Miller .33

Nosek .000

Tangradi .000

Numbers don't lie. Mantha produced more points per 60 mins of game time than Helm and Andersson. Yes it was only for 10 games. But he did produce more. Now who is going to get better? Helm who has always been between 1.25 and 1.5 for his career or Mantha who is just beggining?

Mantha was 11th overall this year. Franzen is out forever, datsyuk is leaving, and Richards is a UFA. Makes him a top 9 guy next year as a minimum. More than likely top 6. So Play him!

BTW Tatar and Nyquist are terrible in 5 on 5 situations. Both were at 1.69 pts/60 this year. Which continues their downward trend.

tatar the last 4 seasons:

2.10-2.08-1.70-1.69

Nyquist the last 4 seasons:

1.03-2.81-1.44-1.69

[13dangledangle 965]

How did this end up Mantha VS Helm? Two completely different skill sets, both also important but one of them isn't playing and its not because of the other one. Truth is that It doesn't matter where Darren Helm plays within in the 4 line set up, he will play the same style, fast and aggressive, and that style also helps an aging Datsyuk retrieve a sh*t ton of pucks back to his stick that otherwise are heading the other way.

Mantha will be called up at some point during these playoffs as he is an ace in the sleeve of Holland and Blashhill, when he does I just hope it isn't when we are down 3-1 like others have said. The kids size has immediate benefits, let alone his skill set.

[matt198913 932]

I've had it with Holland. He is so out of touch. Look at your freakin PP with him in the line up. He gets to the net. Live in the now, the days of 40-13 carrying you are over. Pathetic

[WingedWheel91 271]

2015/16 points per 60 mins of game time for the RW under all conditions:

AA 2.52

Tatar 2.32

Franzen 2.32

Datsyuk 2.22

Nyquist 2.07

larkin 2.04

Z 1.92

Pulk 1.73

Richards 1.67

Abby 1.67

Mantha 1.54

Helm 1.34

Sheahan 1.22

Glendening 1.02

Numbers don't lie. Mantha produced more points per 60 mins of game time than Helm and Andersson. Yes it was only for 10 games. But he did produce more. Now who is going to get better? Helm who has always been between 1.25 and 1.5 for his career or Mantha who is just beggining?

Mantha was 11th overall this year. Franzen is out forever, datsyuk is leaving, and Richards is a UFA. Makes him a top 9 guy next year as a minimum. More than likely top 6. So Play him!

One small argument:

Mantha recorded 66% of his points on the PP and doesn't kill penalties.

Helm recorded 0% of his points on the PP and does kill penalties.

Point being - The PPG/60 Minutes stats are skewed if you are trying to find out who is better offensively - when one player (Helm) spends a certain % of his minutes killing penalties, and the other (Mantha) spends a certain % of his minutes on the PP, but neither play both.

Using 5on5 metrics is more helpful in determining this:

Helm - 0.34 5vs5 PPG

Mantha - 0.10 5vs5 PPG

Not such a slam dunk.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

It comes down to coaching style. I feel like Blashill was kind of set toward utilizing the strengths of younger, offensive players at the beginning of the year, but as time went on got spooked and went the safe route. He seems committed to the latter now, which is unfortunate. Every situation is different, but he's going to have to let the kids play eventually, and not all of them are going to be the dependable, two-way skaters he's looking to create.

I remember reading some quotes from Larionov awhile back (I think he was discussing Yakupov) about how coaching in today's NHL is sucking the creativity out of the game. Coaches are trying to mold every player into the same style of skater, which doesn't translate with the offensively-inclined guys, obviously. I think this is a good take on how Dave Hakstol approached Gostisbhere in Philly.

I'm not saying Blashill should let Smith, Mantha, Athanasiou, etc roam free, but I think he should be more receptive to it. You can have guys who take chances and compliment them with dependable partners/linemates. When you watch Gostisbehere, he's going to make mistakes, but he's also allowed to be a dynamic player. It's a double-edged sword.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Jesusberg

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Helm is a great 2 way player but in no way should helm be in a top 6 role ... Mantha who can skate,shoot and get to the front of the net on the powerplay with his big body should be here playing and gaining some playoff experience

Athanasiou who scored that big short handed goal against flyers to make it 2-0 and might be one of the big reasons we ended up winning that game and making the playoffs thanks to those 2 points ....is on a 4th line with glendening and Anderson playing what 5-6 minutes?

Is this a f***en joke? Datsyuk announces he's likely leaving so play it safe Blashill decides to stick them back together so they could have a goodbye tour and stick Larkin on a 3rd line with datsyuk's leftovers?

Nyquist and tatar's goal productions decreased jurco and pulkkinen isn't playing , mantha sent down and athanasiou is in the gutters .... Blashill was suppose to be this guy that came in that was gonna help bring up the kids but seems like he's just s***ting on them and keeping them down and playing veterans on top 6 role and calling up the new Dan clearly from Grand Rapids to play over mantha

Yet when the playoffs start and we wont score goals were suppose to be shocked?

Unless mrazek/Howard steals the show this won't be pretty to watch

Edited April 12, 2016 by nyqvististhefuture

[WingedWheel91 271]

Would all you girls stop whining!!!!!

Just remember - you can't delete these comments after we win tomorrow night, and Andersson buries a hat-trick!!!!!!!!!

Here's another stat - which I'm sure you experts will dissect immediately LOL:

Mantha - 10 Career NHL Regular Season Games, playing on Datsyuks line + PP opportunity = 0.30 PPG

Andersson - 22 Career NHL Playoff Games, playing on the 4th line without PP opportunity = 0.32 PPG

I just hope the guy who engraves the Conn Smythe doesn't spell "Andersson" with only one "S" this June!!!!!!!!!!!

#YesWeCandersson

[Buppy 1,720]

2015/16 points per 60 mins of game time for the RW under all conditions:

AA 2.52

Tatar 2.32

Franzen 2.32

Datsyuk 2.22

Nyquist 2.07

larkin 2.04

Z 1.92

Pulk 1.73

Richards 1.67

Abby 1.67

Mantha 1.54

Helm 1.34

Sheahan 1.22

Glendening 1.02

Jurco .89

Andersson .69

Miller .33

Nosek .000

Tangradi .000

Numbers don't lie. Mantha produced more points per 60 mins of game time than Helm and Andersson. Yes it was only for 10 games. But he did produce more. Now who is going to get better? Helm who has always been between 1.25 and 1.5 for his career or Mantha who is just beggining?

Mantha was 11th overall this year. Franzen is out forever, datsyuk is leaving, and Richards is a UFA. Makes him a top 9 guy next year as a minimum. More than likely top 6. So Play him!

BTW Tatar and Nyquist are terrible in 5 on 5 situations. Both were at 1.69 pts/60 this year. Which continues their downward trend.

tatar the last 4 seasons:

2.10-2.08-1.70-1.69

Nyquist the last 4 seasons:

1.03-2.81-1.44-1.69

Got it.

AA is the best player on the team, Tatar is better than Datsyuk, Nyquist is better than Larkin and Zetterberg, Pulkkinen is better than Mantha.

AA-Datsyuk-Tatar

Nyquist-Z-Larkin

Pulk-Richards-Abby

Mantha-Helm-Sheahan

Or wait, Tatar and Nyquist are terrible 5v5. Must mean that's important.

AA 2.38

Larkin 2.01

Nyquist 1.69

Tatar 1.69

Helm 1.42

Abby 1.39

Datsyuk 1.31

Sheahan 1.22

Zetterberg 1.13

Glendening 1.09

Pulkkinen 1.07

Jurco 0.94

Andersson 0.87

Richards 0.83

Mantha 0.62

Miller 0.22

So Andersson is better than Mantha after all. Helm and Abby are better than Datsyuk. Sheahan is better than Zetterberg.

AA-Larkin-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Abby

Sheahan-Datsyuk-Zetterberg

Pulkkinen-Glendening-Jurco

Turner Elson is the best player in the whole league. Wonder if Larkin+Mantha+1st would be enough to get him. Patrick Sieloff is the game's best goal scorer, and he's a defenseman. Damn, shame Calgary didn't play them all year, they'd be Cup favorites. Larkin, Mantha, Dekeyser, 1st and 2nd rounder this year and next, Howard (50% retained) or rights to Mrazek. Maybe have to throw in AA as well.

Wishful thinking I know. Holland never makes big moves.

[marcaractac 3,963]

One small argument:

Mantha recorded 66% of his points on the PP and doesn't kill penalties.

Helm recorded 0% of his points on the PP and does kill penalties.

Point being - The PPG/60 Minutes stats are skewed if you are trying to find out who is better offensively - when one player (Helm) spends a certain % of his minutes killing penalties, and the other (Mantha) spends a certain % of his minutes on the PP, but neither play both.

Using 5on5 metrics is more helpful in determining this:

Helm - 0.34 5vs5 PPG

Mantha - 0.10 5vs5 PPG

Not such a slam dunk.

Our powerplay has been awful (minus the 8 straight games scoring a pp goal while Mantha was in the lineup), while our pk has been totally fine. But yes, continue to preach to us all how Andersson has more value in the lineup right now than Mantha.

It'll be fun losing 1-0 and 2-1 all series because the team can't score goals.

[WingedWheel91 271]

AA 2.38

Larkin 2.01

Nyquist 1.69

Tatar 1.69

Helm 1.42

Abby 1.39

Datsyuk 1.31

Sheahan 1.22

Zetterberg 1.13

Glendening 1.09

Pulkkinen 1.07

Jurco 0.94

Andersson 0.87

Richards 0.83

Mantha 0.62

Miller 0.22

So Andersson is better than Mantha after all. Helm and Abby are better than Datsyuk. Sheahan is better than Zetterberg.

AA-Larkin-Nyquist

Tatar-Helm-Abby

Sheahan-Datsyuk-Zetterberg

Pulkkinen-Glendening-Jurco

Turner Elson is the best player in the whole league. Wonder if Larkin+Mantha+1st would be enough to get him. Patrick Sieloff is the game's best goal scorer, and he's a defenseman. Damn, shame Calgary didn't play them all year, they'd be Cup favorites. Larkin, Mantha, Dekeyser, 1st and 2nd rounder this year and next, Howard (50% retained) or rights to Mrazek. Maybe have to throw in AA as well.

Wishful thinking I know. Holland never makes big moves.

#YesWeCandersson

[WingedWheel91 271]

Our powerplay has been awful (minus the 8 straight games scoring a pp goal while Mantha was in the lineup), while our pk has been totally fine. But yes, continue to preach to us all how Andersson has more value in the lineup right now than Mantha.

It'll be fun losing 1-0 and 2-1 all series because the team can't score goals.

Mantha. has. 2. Godamn. Powerplay. Points....... Out Of 3 in total!!!!! Put me on the f****** thing for 10 games and I'll get that many!!!!

No no, your right - he's the deadly offensive PP force we so desperately need. Perhaps a name change is almost in order: Mario Mantha? Perhaps Gordie Mantha? Dare I say Anthony Oates Mantha? Elegant.

#YesWeCandersson

#AndSoCanYou

[wings4thecup06 504]

The problem with half or mainly all of this argument is that stats (unless they're advanced) don't begin to tell what players do actually on the ice. Ok, so PPG is all good and stuff, but how does that even explain the number of scoring chances a guy creates?

Everyone here knows that Anderson is slow, has no hands. Yea fine he can win face-offs and is ok on the PK, but we have 4 good guys we can put on the PK, and this team has struggled to score all damn year long. yes the playoffs are a different animal but look at our series last year. Are Tampa winning that series if Johnson doesn't score 6 goals and lights it up in game 6? Most likely not. This shutdown, have everyone try and be a 2 way forward selke candidate type player just doesn't cut the mustard. Not everyone is as talented as Fedorov or Datsyuk, and if guys have good offensive ability we need to let them use it.

Not to say that Mantha is ready, but I thought in the couple of games he was given an opportunity to actually play good ice time, he played quite well. I don't see how having Anderson here helps.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Watching the gymnastics some people do to defend their boy, whoever it happens to be, is pretty entertaining.

Mantha was a defensive liability who wasn't producing. So are several other players, but most of them have a history of producing in the NHL, at moreso than Mantha does. Hollands quote, while harsh, was accurate. Mantha wasn't a key player for the Griffs last year. Expecting him from going from a decent AHL player to the savior in Detroit is asinine.

[WingedWheel91 271]

The problem with half or mainly all of this argument is that stats (unless they're advanced) don't begin to tell what players do actually on the ice. Ok, so PPG is all good and stuff, but how does that even explain the number of scoring chances a guy creates?

Everyone here knows that Anderson is slow, has no hands. Yea fine he can win face-offs and is ok on the PK, but we have 4 good guys we can put on the PK, and this team has struggled to score all damn year long. yes the playoffs are a different animal but look at our series last year. Are Tampa winning that series if Johnson doesn't score 6 goals and lights it up in game 6? Most likely not. This shutdown, have everyone try and be a 2 way forward selke candidate type player just doesn't cut the mustard. Not everyone is as talented as Fedorov or Datsyuk, and if guys have good offensive ability we need to let them use it.

Not to say that Mantha is ready, but I thought in the couple of games he was given an opportunity to actually play good ice time, he played quite well. I don't see how having Anderson here helps.

Because Andersson is a battle hardened warrior, deadly as they come - worthy of all the ice time he gets. It takes Steph Curry 0.4 Seconds to score as many points as Mantha did in 10 games. #notdeadly

#YesWeCandersson

#ElChapoAndersson

Watching the gymnastics some people do to defend their boy, whoever it happens to be, is pretty entertaining.

Mantha was a defensive liability who wasn't producing. So are several other players, but most of them have a history of producing in the NHL, at moreso than Mantha does. Hollands quote, while harsh, was accurate. Mantha wasn't a key player for the Griffs last year. Expecting him from going from a decent AHL player to the savior in Detroit is asinine.

#YesYouCandersson

Hold on, was that intelligence you just employed? I thought we weren't supposed to use such tools when discussing the potential impact a rookie will have in the Stanley Cup Playoffs? He had 3 points in 10 games... You mean he isn't going to solve all of our offensive problems even though we know he's awful defensively, and creates further stress on Pavel Datsyuk in his own end?

Hmm.... So you're saying that relying on a veteran in a 4th line capacity, while allowing the elite superstar (in the making) - who by the way sucked absolute donkey d*** last year - to develop his game in Grand Rapids is not a terrible coaching decision? This seems too rational.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[matt198913 932]

I hate stats. Watch the games, watch the effect one player has on the game. Mantha was a beast until he got taken off Pavs wings for some unknown reason. Made no sense to completely take him out. Shake on Ken Holland for making those comments about how player too, the guy clearly doesn't know what he has.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Would all you girls stop whining!!!!!

Just remember - you can't delete these comments after we win tomorrow night, and Andersson buries a hat-trick!!!!!!!!!

Here's another stat - which I'm sure you experts will dissect immediately LOL:

Mantha - 10 Career NHL Regular Season Games, playing on Datsyuks line + PP opportunity = 0.30 PPG

Andersson - 22 Career NHL Playoff Games, playing on the 4th line without PP opportunity = 0.32 PPG

I just hope the guy who engraves the Conn Smythe doesn't spell "Andersson" with only one "S" this June!!!!!!!!!!!

#YesWeCandersson

What happens if we win game 1 and lose 4 in a row after ? You were right and we were wrong ?

Who the f*** made you the expert

And where was all this Andersson love when he was here last year ?

Mantha. has. 2. Godamn. Powerplay. Points....... Out Of 3 in total!!!!! Put me on the f****** thing for 10 games and I'll get that many!!!!

No no, your right - he's the deadly offensive PP force we so desperately need. Perhaps a name change is almost in order: Mario Mantha? Perhaps Gordie Mantha? Dare I say Anthony Oates Mantha? Elegant.

#YesWeCandersson

#AndSoCanYou

You got more of a chance of getting cross checked into the boards and never being heard of again than getting a single power play point