Mantha

[Richdg 267]

My point being, AHL dominence doesn't always mean a player is a good NHL player. Mantha was not good.

pure craziness. he was good. he wasn't great.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

pure craziness. he was good. he wasn't great.

Agreed. He wasn't a game breaker but I thought he looked pretty good for a first time NHLer. He generated his own chances well which is something we don't see a lot of.

[Richdg 267]

Just to compare.

Nyquist first trip up was in 11/12. He played 18 games and scored 1 goal.

Tatar first trip up was 10/11. He played 9 games and scored 1 goal.

Datsyuk's first year was 01/02. He played 70 games and had 11 goals.

Abby played 54 games over three seasons: 07-10. He scored 3 goals over that stretch.

Mantha's 2 goals in 10 games is 16 per 80 games. Those are decent numbers for a rookie that wasn't a top 5 pick.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Just to compare.

Nyquist first trip up was in 11/12. He played 18 games and scored 1 goal.

Tatar first trip up was 10/11. He played 9 games and scored 1 goal.

Datsyuk's first year was 01/02. He played 70 games and had 11 goals.

Abby played 54 games over three seasons: 07-10. He scored 3 goals over that stretch.

Mantha's 2 goals in 10 games is 16 per 80 games. Those are decent numbers for a rookie that wasn't a top 5 pick.

He's got good offensive instincts but looked lost otherwise. Keeping Mantha in GR was one of the few moves Blashill/Holland did that I wasn't upset about.

edit: having said that, I'm looking for Mantha to take the next step in October on the Wings' squad, and I'm looking for Blashill to put him in a position to succeed.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Echolalia

[WingedWheel91 271]

People will always do gymnastics for their favourite players, and then crucify the players they don't like no matter the results.

In my opinion, I don't vividly remember Mantha's "Huge Frame" or "Big Body" protecting the puck and generating all of this offensive zone time as often as it's talked about. I saw a player who had great size (which he didn't really use to hit people) and good speed, to go along with an excellent shot. But I also saw a player who (at times) looked lost on offense and was the furthest thing from responsible defensively.

Pulkinnen can't crack an NHL team - yet absolutely torched the AHL his last 2 seasons, and to this point has a better professional resume than Anthony Mantha does. I remember when he scored 14 Goals in 16 Playoff games the same season he scored 34 goals in 46 games - and we all drooled over that "Right Handed" / "PP Cannon" we so desperately needed. Now it's the "Big Body" / "Net Front" presence we need that gets us so excited... I think I'll get excited when he actually makes the team and starts to do these things at the NHL level.

Do we all hope that Anthony Mantha turns into the next Jamie Benn? I sure as hell do. But history will show you that elite NHL forwards typically won't spend their first 3 years in the AHL. It's also hard to argue the "over ripen" philosophy here, as for the first time in 20 years we used (2) Rookie forwards in Anthanasiou and Larkin... Point being: If Mantha deserved it, he would have been up there.

[kickazz 5,459]

Yeah Mantha is being a bit overrated around here. Using the 1st 10 games and comparing players who didn't get to play with Datsyuk nor on the first PP unit to Mantha who got to do both isn't much of a strong argument.

Having said that I'd love to have him in the top 6 next season because it's not like anyone (except Larkin) is that great.

Edited April 27, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

I don't understand where people are getting that Mantha is in any way being overrated by anyone?... The argument that any of us that are pro-Mantha have had is that he should have been in the lineup during the playoffs. Not because with him we would have without a doubt beaten Tampa, but because he would have given us a better opportunity than Andersson did.

No one has said he's an All-Star or this phenomenal player, we're just saying that he's a good young player, and he makes our team better. It could also be argued that being in the NHL for the Red Wings playoff run (which may or may not be still alive) could have been better for his development than being in the AHL for the Griffins playoff run...

[kickazz 5,459]

Not everyone is overrating him but all I'm sayin is comparing Mantha's first 10 games to players who started their first 10 games on the 3rd or 4th line without any PP time just shows one is trying to skew the argument to make Mantha stand out (which would overrate him). We'd have to compare Larkin's first 10 games to Mantha's first 10 games for it to be fair because Larkin actually did start his first 10 games on top line and PP just like Mantha did.

I thought Mantha was a good addition, thought he added an element to the game we lacked (his big frame), and I think he looks like he has the potential to be a good player in a few years. He'll be a semi late bloomer I think rather than the weird exception like Larkin. I hope to see Mantha on the roster in october.

Edited April 28, 2016 by kickazz

[Richdg 267]

Not everyone is overrating him but all I'm sayin is comparing Mantha's first 10 games to players who started their first 10 games on the 3rd or 4th line without any PP time just shows one is trying to skew the argument to make Mantha stand out (which would overrate him). We'd have to compare Larkin's first 10 games to Mantha's first 10 games for it to be fair because Larkin actually did start his first 10 games on top line and PP just like Mantha did.

I thought Mantha was a good addition, thought he added an element to the game we lacked (his big frame), and I think he looks like he has the potential to be a good player in a few years. He'll be a semi late bloomer I think rather than the weird exception like Larkin. I hope to see Mantha on the roster in october.

Since you brought it up, Larkin had...... 2 goals in his first 10 games. Same as Mantha. Larkin did have 5 assists to Mantha 1.

[krsmith17 7,191]

"good addition", "added an element", "potential", "I hope to see Mantha on the roster in october"... I can't speak for everyone but I'm pretty sure that's all most of us were / are saying...

[kickazz 5,459]

Since you brought it up, Larkin had...... 2 goals in his first 10 games. Same as Mantha. Larkin did have 5 assists to Mantha 1.

That's a pretty significant difference in points. That's why I didn't think sending Mantha back down was their worst decision. I did however think Andersson coming up instead was what made the situation stupid overall.

[Richdg 267]

That's a pretty significant difference in points. That's why I didn't think sending Mantha back down was their worst decision. I did however think Andersson coming up instead was what made the situation stupid overall.

They are different players. Larkin is a natural C and passing nis very much part of his game and job description. Mantha is a natural winger/sniper and shooting is his game. if a couple of years down the road Mantha has a 35 G 60 point season and Larkin has a 20 g 60 point season, which one had a great year vs an average one? Most would answer Mantha had the great one and Larkin had an average one. C's should have more points being the play maker. But that is down the road a few years.

[kickazz 5,459]

They are different players. Larkin is a natural C and passing nis very much part of his game and job description. Mantha is a natural winger/sniper and shooting is his game. if a couple of years down the road Mantha has a 35 G 60 point season and Larkin has a 20 g 60 point season, which one had a great year vs an average one? Most would answer Mantha had the great one and Larkin had an average one. C's should have more points being the play maker. But that is down the road a few years.

2 g and 10 games and it's gone this far?

[WingedWheel91 271]

They are different players. Larkin is a natural C and passing nis very much part of his game and job description. Mantha is a natural winger/sniper and shooting is his game. if a couple of years down the road Mantha has a 35 G 60 point season and Larkin has a 20 g 60 point season, which one had a great year vs an average one? Most would answer Mantha had the great one and Larkin had an average one. C's should have more points being the play maker. But that is down the road a few years.

Pretty big stretch.

Depending on how the summer goes, it isn't guaranteed Mantha even makes the team next year. It's a lot easier for a coach to throw a very raw (defensively inept) rookie winger on a line centered by Pavel Datsyuk, than it is to play him with a Larkin, Sheahan, or Anthansiou - who by all accounts will be our top 3 C next year.

[Buppy 1,720]

I don't understand where people are getting that Mantha is in any way being overrated by anyone?... The argument that any of us that are pro-Mantha have had is that he should have been in the lineup during the playoffs. Not because with him we would have without a doubt beaten Tampa, but because he would have given us a better opportunity than Andersson did.

No one has said he's an All-Star or this phenomenal player, we're just saying that he's a good young player, and he makes our team better. It could also be argued that being in the NHL for the Red Wings playoff run (which may or may not be still alive) could have been better for his development than being in the AHL for the Griffins playoff run...

Well, when someone makes an "I told you so" post after one 2-goal game, there's bound to be some feedback of the "let's derail the hype train" variety. Rich did this same thing early in the year when Mantha had a little hot streak. Turns out his year in GR was not very impressive. If someone had come here to point out that he had zero goals and zero points in his first five games back in GR, some of you would've tied your fingers in knots trying to type out a defense fast enough.

Two years as a pro and the kid has yet to put up any kind of numbers worth getting excited about, yet some people think it's some kind of a crime that he isn't a fixture in our top 6. He scored two goals in an AHL game. Congratulations Tony, for accomplishing something only 8 or 9 other people have so far in the AHL playoffs this year. Now keep doing it.

To even say as little as he makes us better or would have given us a better shot at beating TB is premature. And he really shouldn't be compared to Andersson. Andy hardly played, and when he did the results 5v5 were actually a little better than we got when Mantha was in, albeit in wildly different situations. The real question should be whether using Mantha on the PP and/or a top line would have gotten better results than with whomever he would have displaced. A much less obvious question.

[amato 3,210]

Over rated and over hyped are two very different things. Mantha was over hyped by wings fans when we drafted him (myself included).. He'll be fine in time. I'm excited to see him progress.

Hopefully he has a big off season of training and really turns some heads come training camp.

[krsmith17 7,191]

To be fair Buppy, I don't think Rich was saying "I told you so" to anyone in particular here, I think that original comment was more so directed toward Holland and his "spare part in the Calder Cup playoffs a year ago" comment... I could be wrong though. Regardless, he was just posting about how he was doing in the playoffs so far, and he's been doing very well down there. He also responded to Dickie's comment about how "Mantha was not good", with "pure craziness. he was good. he wasn't great", and I couldn't agree more with that statement. The thing that is getting confused here is that no one here is saying Mantha is elite or would have put us over the top, but we are saying that he is a very good young player, and he could have definitely helped in the Red Wings playoff run...

How is it premature to say he made the team better, when the stats showed that our power-play was much better with him in the lineup? Was it a coincidence? Maybe, but you don't completely dismiss the idea that maybe he was actually a difference maker out there. I believe he was, others don't, including Blashill, but when our power-play was literally the reason we lost that series and was more deflating to the team than positive, something should have been changed... Maybe you try what worked a couple weeks previous, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but it would have certainly been worth a try...

Yes, he really should have been compared to Andersson because that's who he should have displaced in the lineup. Andersson should have been out because like you said, he barely played, and wasn't even used a whole lot in the situations Blashill claimed he needed him in for. Just because player B subs in for player A, doesn't necessarily mean that player B assumes the same role in the lineup. If Andersson comes out, a much better player that was currently in the top 6, like Helm for example, moves down to Andersson's position in the lineup, and Mantha moves into the top 6. Helm is MUCH better than Andersson, so he instantly makes the line of Athanasiou - Andersson Helm - Tatar much better. Mantha then gets inserted into the top 6 on Pavs's line and all of a sudden the Richards - Datsyuk - Helm Mantha line is maybe slightly better as well.. I love Helm but he's much better suited for the bottom 6, and if one of those missed Helm opportunities had been capitalized on by Mantha, maybe it's a difference maker in a game, and in turn a difference maker in the series. Again, not saying we definitely win with Mantha in the lineup, but I do believe the series would have been a little tighter with him in there over Andersson...

Does comparing Mantha to a player that by rights shouldn't even be in the NHL mean he's great? Nope, and no one is saying that he is. But he is good, and he should have been in the lineup.

Anyway, that's the last I will say about how he "should" have been in the lineup... Now, all I'll say is he "better" be in the lineup to start next season...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Larkin, Mantha are the only 2 guys with great upside so of course he should be in the lineup next year but given what went on, I'm not sure if they start him with GR again.

His size creates space and his scoring touch is something else hope he proves all his doubters and especially Develano wrong

[Richdg 267]

I am and have been a fan of Mantha's from the beginning. I spent months before the draft hoping we would draft him. That being said he is a very good prospect. Nothing more at this time. Until he proves he can score in the NHL he will remain a prospect. There is however only 1 way for him to prove he is a NHL caliber player: Play NHL games. Sending him down when he was clearly helping us was a mistake. Our PP was much better with him on it. Then he goes down and we went 1 for 24 on the PP in the PO's. Now maybe we still struggle, maybe not. But to use the same guys that have sucked on the PP all year in the PO's and expect a different result is stupid. Plain and simple, Holland/Blashill screwed up.

Yes all prospects get overhyped before they actually play. Nature of the beast. Same is true with Larkin. We think/hope he will be a star someday, but as of now he is not. 2 years from now, maybe.

The one thing that does bother me with the RW's and Mantha is the negative comments in the press about him that haven't been said about others. The "spare forward" comment by Holland was flat out stupid. Jimmy D last year same thing. This hasn't happened with Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulk, etc... Why are they doing this with Mantha? Maybe he is a kid that thrives on confrontation? Don't know. But some of this is bad management.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

2 goals in 10 games, both on the PP, with several defensive lapses to the point where he was a liability in his own end means he was not a good player.

[WingedWheel91 271]

I am and have been a fan of Mantha's from the beginning. I spent months before the draft hoping we would draft him. That being said he is a very good prospect. Nothing more at this time. Until he proves he can score in the NHL he will remain a prospect. There is however only 1 way for him to prove he is a NHL caliber player: Play NHL games. Sending him down when he was clearly helping us was a mistake. Our PP was much better with him on it. Then he goes down and we went 1 for 24 on the PP in the PO's. Now maybe we still struggle, maybe not. But to use the same guys that have sucked on the PP all year in the PO's and expect a different result is stupid. Plain and simple, Holland/Blashill screwed up.

Yes all prospects get overhyped before they actually play. Nature of the beast. Same is true with Larkin. We think/hope he will be a star someday, but as of now he is not. 2 years from now, maybe.

The one thing that does bother me with the RW's and Mantha is the negative comments in the press about him that haven't been said about others. The "spare forward" comment by Holland was flat out stupid. Jimmy D last year same thing. This hasn't happened with Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulk, etc... Why are they doing this with Mantha? Maybe he is a kid that thrives on confrontation? Don't know. But some of this is bad management.

The biggest knock on Anthony Mantha when he came into the league was his work ethic... There was no other reason a player who stood 6'5 - 200+ LBS, and lead the QMJHL in scoring his draft year fell to the 20th pick.

The complaints we've heard from Devellano and Holland are probably consistent with management's frustration in a kid who oozes potential, but (maybe) hasn't worked hard enough to reach it. None of us on this website can pretend to know about his workout regime, his diet, or his effort off the ice - but Ken Holland certainly would. This probably explains why you haven't heard complaints about Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco or Pulk - as none of them have the goal scoring potential Mantha does, yet have out-produced him on every professional level so far.

I think the word might be "constructive criticism" as much as it's "bad management".

[BinMucker94 302]

I'm not really concerned with Mantha's defensive lapses. I'd rather they have him focused on scoring goals and making things happen in the offensive zone. There are enough 2 way forwards on this team

[Richdg 267]

The biggest knock on Anthony Mantha when he came into the league was his work ethic... There was no other reason a player who stood 6'5 - 200+ LBS, and lead the QMJHL in scoring his draft year fell to the 20th pick.

The complaints we've heard from Devellano and Holland are probably consistent with management's frustration in a kid who oozes potential, but (maybe) hasn't worked hard enough to reach it. None of us on this website can pretend to know about his workout regime, his diet, or his effort off the ice - but Ken Holland certainly would. This probably explains why you haven't heard complaints about Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco or Pulk - as none of them have the goal scoring potential Mantha does, yet have out-produced him on every professional level so far.

I think the word might be "constructive criticism" as much as it's "bad management".

Not true at all. Nyquist's best season in GR was 23 goals. Tatar's was 24. Mantha is 21. Nyquist was older when he did it as well after playing in college for 3 years. Yes age and maturity makes a big difference. Abby had 24 his best year in GR. Jurco, Sheahan, and Helm never broke 20 goals. So at the same level they are producing at the same rate. The big difference is all of those guys were /are max'd out in their development. Mantha is not.

[WingedWheel91 271]

Not true at all. Nyquist's best season in GR was 23 goals. Tatar's was 24. Mantha is 21. Nyquist was older when he did it as well after playing in college for 3 years. Yes age and maturity makes a big difference. Abby had 24 his best year in GR. Jurco, Sheahan, and Helm never broke 20 goals. So at the same level they are producing at the same rate. The big difference is all of those guys were /are max'd out in their development. Mantha is not.

... Hence the reason management is frustrated.

[Richdg 267]

... Hence the reason management is frustrated.

There is no reason to be. Year one with a broken leg he scored 13. Not great but no terrible. Tatar scored 16 his first full season in GR. Year 2 he has scored 23 in regular season games between GR and Detroit with 3 in 3 PO games. That is getting close to 30 for the year.