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Andy Pred 48

16/17 offseason

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So with Kennys reluctance to make a major trade what route do you see the Wings going down? Are there any top fas in the NCAA this year? Who's the next Panarin to come in from Europe, and are we watching with interest. Will we go with 2 or 3 guys coming up from GR and let our FAs walk this year. Is there an outside chance that Kenny trys to trade up in the draft just for a change. I really hope we do more things to shake this roster up as it will be as you were this time next year except I see the run ending at 25 years. I have a few players in Europe that could be interesting to bring over and may make an impact, but well see soon enough what the front office is thinking.

Edited by Andy Pred 48

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Stamkos is the only real stud. Backes would be OK on a 2 or 3 year deal, but he'll probably get 5+. Staal on a short term deal, maybe, but he's slipped. There are a few others I'd like for the right contract, but they'll probably get too much money and term.

I see Holland giving Helm 5+ years, signing Quincey, not trading anyone and when players get lost to waivers he mumblede about depth and a numbers game.

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Stamkos is the only real stud. Backes would be OK on a 2 or 3 year deal, but he'll probably get 5+. Staal on a short term deal, maybe, but he's slipped. There are a few others I'd like for the right contract, but they'll probably get too much money and term.

I see Holland giving Helm 5+ years, signing Quincey, not trading anyone and when players get lost to waivers he mumblede about depth and a numbers game.

Apart from Stamkos, Okposo is the one to get this year. If Holland manages to get Radulov or Okposo, I'd be more than happy. Other interesting potential FA's to me are Boedker or Brouwer and on defense Russell, Yandle or Hamhuis who's looked surprisingly good last season despite health problems.

Please don't sign Helm. Not even for 500'000. I can't take his bulls*** anymore. He's got his speed but other than that he's just terrible.

Quincey actually played one of his better seasons here. I'd like to keep him for less money. Same for Richards. Miller is a must. He's a warrior and his experience is invaluable.

I also think that if Datsyuk's gone, we need a new Nr.2 Center. The only FA who's good enough would be Staal who probably wants a long term deal. Unless Holland pulls out a surprising deal Blashill should switch Abdelkader back to Center. If we can get one of the top3 UFA-Wingers we should be deep enough to make that move.

For example:

Pulkkinen, Zetterberg, Radulov/Okposo/Boedker/Brouwer

Larkin, Abdelkader, Mantha

Athanasiou, Richards, Jurco

Miller, Sheahan, Glendening

Nyquist, Tatar

DeKeyser, Marchenko

Kronwall, Sproul

Ouellet, Ericsson

Green

Tradelist, even if almost impossible to move: Nyquist, Tatar, Green, Ericsson

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I don't think I've ever disagreed with so much in one post... Aside from the first sentence I disagree with pretty much everything here...

We don't need a Russell or Hamhuis, aka mid tier defenseman. We already have plenty of them on the team now, not to mention any of the kids that are out of options this coming season that could play the same role a hell of a lot cheaper.

Quincey played decent this season as well as last, but he needs to go to make room for Ouellet and Sproul.

Richards should be gone as well. The only way I see him returning is if we completely strike out on free agency, and Staal isn't the solution either. Both would be a mistake in my opinion, as I think both Larkin and Athanasiou would be better suited to take over the top 6 center positions. Maybe not short term, but certainly looking long term.

Switch Abdelkader back to center? In the top 6? That would be terrible... He's much better suited as a winger and would get destroyed as a top 6 center. Zetterberg should also be switched to the wing or 3rd line center getting limited ice time. No way should he be our number one center next season.

Helm is terrible? Seriously? No, he's not a top 6 guy and shouldn't be used there, but he is one of the best bottom 6 / penalty killers in the league. Miller is a must? Miller is f***ing awful compared to Helm.

Pulkkinen on the top line over Larkin, Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar or pretty much anyone? Marchenko on the top pair and Green as the number 7?

The fact that you don't have any of Nyquist, Tatar or Green in your lineup is funny enough, but that you say they're "almost impossible to move" is hilarious...

I'm not trying to s*** on your post too much, but I just have no idea how you could be serious about any of this...

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I've got little time so I'm just gonna respond to the center thing. So you want our centers to be Larkin, Athanasiou, Sheahan and Glendening? Correct? If your answer is "yes" then I got no more questions. We wouldn't even be able to compete with the Leafs with even one of them as a top6 Centerman. Nothing against Larkin but he had a protected role and quality icetime. To me he's a winger. If Blash wants to switch him to Center he'll need more protection...at least for a few months with solid wingers as 3rd line Centerman.

Another thing is that only Glendening would be winning anywhere close 50% of the faceoffs. With those 4 we wouldn't be competitive at all.

The 3rd reason why it wouldn't work is our System. Blashill isn't gonna change it. With the centermen having lots of defensive responsability it would be a shame not to make use of Athanasiou's and Larkin's speed. As Blashill always protected those two and hardly ever used them in the defensive zone let alone shorthanded, it's not likely that they're anywhere close of being able to play a bigger role as a centerman in our organization. When Larkin had a chance to play center he wasn't great at all.

I'd either switch Abdelkader, who's a proven and natural centerman and maybe our best 2-way forward or acquire somebody in a trade...which will be difficult enough. Quality centermen are really tough to get.

With Pavel gone Z won't go anywhere else. We need his experience, his faceoff skills, his defensive qualities and his play making skills at center. Anyway he doesn't seem to be skating as he used to earlier and Blashill is really into speedy wingers. What you're suggesting is never ever gonna happen.

Edited by poel

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Abdelkader isn't nearly skilled enough to center a scoring line. AA and Larkin at center will mean growing pains, but one or both gave to be top end centers if this team has any chance of not being terrible in the next few years. Both are natural centers and both gave more skill than Abdelkader. Sink or swim time.

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I've got little time so I'm just gonna respond to the center thing. So you want our centers to be Larkin, Athanasiou, Sheahan and Glendening? Correct? If your answer is "yes" then I got no more questions. We wouldn't even be able to compete with the Leafs with even one of them as a top6 Centerman. Nothing against Larkin but he had a protected role and quality icetime. To me he's a winger. If Blash wants to switch him to Center he'll need more protection...at least for a few months with solid wingers as 3rd line Centerman.

Another thing is that only Glendening would be winning anywhere close 50% of the faceoffs. With those 4 we wouldn't be competitive at all.

The 3rd reason why it wouldn't work is our System. Blashill isn't gonna change it. With the centermen having lots of defensive responsability it would be a shame not to make use of Athanasiou's and Larkin's speed. As Blashill always protected those two and hardly ever used them in the defensive zone let alone shorthanded, it's not likely that they're anywhere close of being able to play a bigger role as a centerman in our organization. When Larkin had a chance to play center he wasn't great at all.

I'd either switch Abdelkader, who's a proven and natural centerman and maybe our best 2-way forward or acquire somebody in a trade...which will be difficult enough. Quality centermen are really tough to get.

With Pavel gone Z won't go anywhere else. We need his experience, his faceoff skills, his defensive qualities and his play making skills at center. Anyway he doesn't seem to be skating as he used to earlier and Blashill is really into speedy wingers. What you're suggesting is never ever gonna happen.

Don't know why you think Abby is a proven centerman. I think the last time he played center was AHL so that would make AA as proven as him.

I think centermen always have more defensive responsibility than wingers. Wingers go along the boards and get caught up with players. Centermen are in free ice and so they're the logical/reliable ones to skate back and help the D. Because of this, it is the place where the fastest skaters play because they have to go north to south. To me, having AA and Larkin at center, is how we make use of their speed.

I think we'll still see Z as the top center, which I think is fine, but hopefully Larkin gets better at faceoffs and takes over as the year goes on. I'd like Helm as the 3rd line center - He would certainly help the faceoff % - but I realize that blocks either AA or Sheahan so I know it doesn't fully make sense.

To sign another centerman (unless it's Stamkos - i've heard he wants to play center) at this point just gets in the way of the future. I even think signing Richards to play center (though he played well at the end of the year and playoffs) this past year was overly cautious. We're not winning the cup next year (barring some big moves...maybe Stamkos, some surprise big trade on D and a lot of internal development) so we're continue this youth movement and get things going in the right direction for them taking over the team.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Like I said, I don't necessarily think that having Larkin, Athanasiou, Sheahan, Glendening down the middle would result in success next season, but I do think it would be the best thing for their development. And developing is exactly what we should be doing for the next season or two. We are not contending in that time, so we need to put our kids in the best position to get them where we need them to be going forward. Having our top two natural centers playing wing, and signing old / washed up, has-been's like Richards or Staal is a terrible decision in my opinion. Of course if we can sign Stamkos and have Larkin play second line center, Athanasiou / Sheahan play 3rd line center, that would be ideal, but I don't see us landing Stamkos...

In saying all that, I would be shocked if those 4 were our centers going into next season. Like PVD said, Zetterberg will likely still be our number one center, although I think that's an awful decision. Zetterberg needs his ice time cut down to 15ish minutes a night, so we can still get the best out of him. If he continues to get 20ish minutes a night, he will be a ghost by mid season. Either way, I just hope we don't see Larkin on his wing again. He needs to center his own line, ideally the second line...

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I don't get why Abdelkader gets that little appreciation in Detroit. Guy would be our 1st or 2nd line Center since years without the eurotwins. It was Babcock who put him on Datsyuk's wing he felt that Abdelkader's capable of being more than a bottom six Centerman and because Pav asked for a physical winger, somebody to pull the piano. Now I gotta read here that Abdelkader last played Center in the AHL or that he wouldn't be capable to play Center. But why I'm I not surprised? It's nothing new...people kept complaining about Babcock playing Abdelkader...he took a lot heat already when just playing as a bottom six Center. Even now that he's producing a lot more and is by far our best and reliable winger aswell as our most physical forward, people keep complaining about him taking too many penalties and so on.

Whereas Nyquist, to answer your question, krsmith17, ever since he fell asleep during OT of a game 7 hasn't improved a single bit:

Over and over this moron keeps producing giveaways. He's no rookie anymore but he's not gonna get it. Always thought we would at some point but he won't. Not a single bit better than Brunner or Hudler. 0,00 physicality and no defensive awareness at all. At 4,75 Holland will never ever be able to move the guy. Should have done that before even Edmonton realized how bad he is.

Tatar is a little bit better but I don't like his development. As a rookie he made few mistakes and was much more physical. Now, without a protected role, he doesn't show any signs of improvement which to me is really a shame. Holland better move the guy in a package for a Center or Defender as long as he still has any value.

Green scored some important points and I also gotta admit that he improved slightly after a terrible start. Still, nobody is gonna want a nr. 5/6 defender at 6 millions. At that point we had the cap but at some point Holland will regret this deal...a deal that's nothing but terrible.

Edited by poel

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Abdelkader arguably isn't even a decent top 6 wing, there's no way he could handle center outside of a checking role. The only reason he's even adequate as a scoring line winger is his willingness to hit and go to the dirty areas.

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Abdelkader arguably isn't even a decent top 6 wing, there's no way he could handle center outside of a checking role. The only reason he's even adequate as a scoring line winger is his willingness to hit and go to the dirty areas.

He's capable of a lot more than you think. Just look how lost Philly was without Couturier. They are a completely different team without him. Is he a skilled guy? No. But he's got good speed and is very strong defensively. The guy plays abour 20mins per game and plays the takes the tougher matchups for Giroux. A solid 2nd Centerman would be very positive for Z. If he has to shoulder a lot of defensive work, it's gonna be a difficult season for him. Abdelkader is tougher and faster than Couturier and is more of a goalscorer, too. I'd still prefer Holland to land a Centerman but I'm also convinced it would work if Abdelkader was moved to center.

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I don't get why Abdelkader gets that little appreciation in Detroit. Guy would be our 1st or 2nd line Center since years without the eurotwins. It was Babcock who put him on Datsyuk's wing he felt that Abdelkader's capable of being more than a bottom six Centerman and because Pav asked for a physical winger, somebody to pull the piano. Now I gotta read here that Abdelkader last played Center in the AHL or that he wouldn't be capable to play Center. But why I'm I not surprised? It's nothing new...people kept complaining about Babcock playing Abdelkader...he took a lot heat already when just playing as a bottom six Center. Even now that he's producing a lot more and is by far our best and reliable winger aswell as our most physical forward, people keep complaining about him taking too many penalties and so on.

Hey, I like Abdekader and I think he's a good ingredient for one of the top lines. I just don't see where you're getting the Abby as centerman stuff from.

Our 4th line center was pretty much Kris Draper up until 2011. Then Emmerton and Andersson after that, but mostly Glendening's been there since 2013.

Our 3rd line center has been Filppula 07-09/10, Helm 09/10-12, Sheahan/Larkin/AA/Weiss? 13-16

I honestly don't remember Abdelkader ever playing center as a Wing. Maybe he filled in for some games while Draper was injured? Did they try him out there 11-12?

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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2009-2012 Abby played center on and off. He was a pretty damn good faceoff guy (around 53%). Much better than Sheahan is.

Filpula became Zetterberg's linemate on second line sometime between 2010-2012, but primarily in the 2011/12 seasons.

I don't think Abby would be a good top 6 centerman. Being is top 6 centerman is nothing like being a bottom 6 centerman.

My first choice for centering 3rd line would be Darren Helm followed by Abby. But neither will happen.

Ideally next season I'd like to see Larkin/AA get some 1st and 2nd line centering duties. I think Zetterberg is much more useful on the Wing if he's to stay top 6. And I think Abby would be a good winger up there as well.

If Z stays first line center then hopefully Larkin gets 2C and AA gets 3C (he could share 3C duties with Sheahan).

Edited by kickazz

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I love Abdelkader and think he's a very good winger, well worth his cap hit, just a year or two longer than I would have liked his contract to be. But like I said, a very good "winger". He's not a center and although I wouldn't hate it if he were tried again as a bottom 6 center, he will never be a top 6 center. And we already have Sheahan, Athanasiou, Glendening and (hopefully) Helm that can all play bottom 6 center, so why would we try to convert Abby into that position?

I'm not sure why you're trying to compare Abdelkader with Nyquist and Tatar and talking about turnovers... But Abby commits more turnovers and has a worse takeaway vs giveaway ratio than both... Nyquist has no defensive awareness? Haha okay...

I find it hilarious how you're still saying that guys like Nyquist, Tatar and Green are untradeable / have no value... All three of these guys would be great trading chips with just about any team...

Anyway, this conversation is pointless. We clearly have completely different views of this team. Whatever...

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Okay, fair enough. Thanks, kickazz, for the reminder.

And, couldn't quite remember Filpula's timeline, but you're right cause he had that one great year on Z's wing and then a disappointing final year and I guess that's partly cause Helm didn't play that year and Babcock moved him back to center his own line (I think he was our 2C which didn't work and so Weiss...).

Anyway, Abby at center still seems an odd roster choice.

Sort of related: The more I think about it, the more I think Helm is gone because of the question of how he fits into the team in the future. He really should be 3C somewhere. I think he's been good as a winger, but I think he was a better player in the middle.

If he's gone, that will mean that my 2 favourite Wing could be gone (Pavel Valerievich is obviously my other fav).

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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There are reasons why Nyquist and Tatar don't get more Icetime. If they'd be anywhere close from being reliable, Blashill or even Babcock would have used them more. They're not trusted. As simple as that.

Me too I don't like the idea of switching Abdelkader to Center. But having Larkin and Athanasiou in Center spots would mean almost no faceoff wins, lots of tough matchups for Z and just instability in the middle. You can protect one Centerman, but not two at once. Having them both at center would mean to go into rebuild mode. Something Holland won't do. He wants to keep the streak alive. So if he fails to land a center either we need to bring back Richards or switch somebody to center.

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So they can't get better at faceoffs? Glendening went from putrid to good in one offseason, I'm sure AA and Larkin can be at least adequate with a little work.

Glendening won 48,5% in his rookie season. Larkin and Athanasiou won 41% each. Which is nowhere near enough if you wanna play them both in the middle. And even if they actually win some faceoffs they still have very little experience especially against the puck. It would automatically lead to a rebuild.

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I agree, 41% for the top two centers would be atrocious, but you can be guaranteed that both will improve on those numbers next season. I think both would reach 45-50% easily, and although that would still be below average - average, that certainly would not necessitate a full on rebuild... We are in the midst of a "rebuild", the only difference is we're not trying to tank. In the situation we're currently in, transitioning from the Datsyuk, Zetterberg era to the Larkin, Athanasiou, Mantha era, putting our future top center in the the middle is the best for the team going forward.

Ideally we'd land a number one center via trade or free agency, and Larkin would be our number two, Athanasiou / Sheahan would be number three and Glendening would be four... However if Holland isn't able to land a true a number one center, I'd rather go with the kids than re-sign Richards or sign a Staal... These guys are barely top 6 centers and definitely aren't number one's anymore.

Anyway, difference of opinion, I'm not saying you're wrong, hell you may be more "right" than me, since what you're advocating is probably what Holland ends up doing, but I just don't agree with it. Enough with the stop-gaps, we should be going with the kids...

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I agree, 41% for the top two centers would be atrocious, but you can be guaranteed that both will improve on those numbers next season. I think both would reach 45-50% easily, and although that would still be below average - average, that certainly would not necessitate a full on rebuild... We are in the midst of a "rebuild", the only difference is we're not trying to tank. In the situation we're currently in, transitioning from the Datsyuk, Zetterberg era to the Larkin, Athanasiou, Mantha era, putting our future top center in the the middle is the best for the team going forward.

Ideally we'd land a number one center via trade or free agency, and Larkin would be our number two, Athanasiou / Sheahan would be number three and Glendening would be four... However if Holland isn't able to land a true a number one center, I'd rather go with the kids than re-sign Richards or sign a Staal... These guys are barely top 6 centers and definitely aren't number one's anymore.

Anyway, difference of opinion, I'm not saying you're wrong, hell you may be more "right" than me, since what you're advocating is probably what Holland ends up doing, but I just don't agree with it. Enough with the stop-gaps, we should be going with the kids...

The only point that I agree with you is that I don't want any of the UFA Center's except Stamkos or Richards shortterm and for less money. They're all either useless or too old. I also don't think that Holland will be able to trade for a good 2nd line Center. But we'll see...

edit: I'd really like Brouwer though. Big, tough and versatile as he can play center. If he doesn't necessarily seek longterm, I'd like Holland to explore that.

Edited by poel

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