Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[kickazz 5,459]

Off topic, but doesn't Yzerman's contract as GM end same time as Holland in two years?

If so, that's a bit ironic.

Edited July 30, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

Internet.Unknown, what are you talking about? First of all, who's "losing their s***"? Second, what prospects in our system has anyone ever compared to Gretzky? And what impact trade has Holland ever made that fans lost their s*** over because we lost prospects?...

Holland doesn't make impact trades. There is not a prospect in our system that I wouldn't give up in a trade for a Trouba type defenseman. So again, what are you talking about?...

[krsmith17 7,191]

The prospects that fans (including myself) have complained about losing, are the ones that we've traded away for way past their prime rentals... There's a big difference between losing a prospect, whether it's a top prospect or a project prospect, in a trade for a Legwand, Cole or Zidlicky or Trouba, Barrie or even Fowler...

[brett 1,029]

surprised we havent tried to get filppula back..loooks like tampa trying to get rid of him

[kickazz 5,459]

Why surprised? we have no room lol

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Internet.Unknown, what are you talking about? First of all, who's "losing their s***"? Second, what prospects in our system has anyone ever compared to Gretzky? And what impact trade has Holland ever made that fans lost their s*** over because we lost prospects?...

Holland doesn't make impact trades. There is not a prospect in our system that I wouldn't give up in a trade for a Trouba type defenseman. So again, what are you talking about?...

C'mon, man. I used silly hyperbole to make a point. Holland is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Many fans tend to overvalue our prospects. See the Legwand and Cole deals for reference.

And lighten up.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

I'm at the point where I don't have any confidence that Holland will pull off a big trade to bring in that much needed top pair defenseman. I don't buy that he's unable to, or we don't have the pieces other teams want, I just think he's unwilling to give up the assets to get it done. I think a package including Nyquist / Tatar, plus a prospect and / or pick(s) would be enough to get a top pair defenseman, he's just not willing to put together the necessary pieces to get such a deal done...

He's overvaluing our roster players and prospects. Tomas Jurco is not someone to get hung up on when talking about piecing him together with other parts for a top defenseman. It just baffles me. We have 30 forwards signed and competing for roster spots. Pay the price and move on. It's really getting old hearing him justify being a cheapass.

These are the kind of deals good GMs make happen. They see a glaring need and they do what they have to in order to fix it. You're not going to get a bargain for a top defenseman.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Rangers give Max Lapierre PTO.

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2016/7/28/12305214/rangers-give-maxim-lapierre-a-pto

[krsmith17 7,191]

I.U, did you not read the part of my post regarding those exact Legwand and Cole deals? Even though Jarnkrok isn't an elite center, and Janmark probably wouldn't have been given the same opportunity here, they're still not great trades. Same thing if we traded Holmstrom for Ladd or Versteeg at last year's trade deadline. People would have been pissed, not because anyone expects Holmstrom to be an elite center, but because a team in transition, aka not a Cup contender, should not be wasting assets on rentals. If Holland had the balls to put any of those assets together to make a legitimate impact trade, no one would say s***... Of course none of those players would garner an impact player by themselves, but in a package including a top 6 forward and possibly a pick, they absolutely would.

Holland has made less trades than any other team in the last however many years, and I'd bet even less impact trades. I love that we draft and develop so well, but when you have a glaring hole on your back end for 4 years now, something needs to be done about it. We need to pony up some assets and bring in that top pair defenseman...

[kickazz 5,459]

Legwand deal was to make sure they got into playoffs.

I wouldn't blame Holland for Cole deal. Babcock wanted better players. We just got unlucky with Cole's injury.

Edited July 30, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

I understand why he made those deals, I just don't necessarily agree with the reasoning. Neither were truly impact players and both were brought in as rentals. It serves no purpose in my opinion to relinquish assets, no matter the value, for an average player on an average team, trying to squeeze into the playoffs...

Any GM can make such meaningless trades. I want to see Holland make a true impact trade that will address an actual need. Something that will impact this team this season and beyond, not just a rental. We need a top pair defenseman, not depth at forward...

[LeftWinger 4,935]

Right now, I would give all of Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Sproul, pick for a legit top defenseman if that's what it would take.

[kickazz 5,459]

I understand why he made those deals, I just don't necessarily agree with the reasoning. Neither were truly impact players and both were brought in as rentals. It serves no purpose in my opinion to relinquish assets, no matter the value, for an average player on an average team, trying to squeeze into the playoffs...

Any GM can make such meaningless trades. I want to see Holland make a true impact trade that will address an actual need. Something that will impact this team this season and beyond, not just a rental. We need a top pair defenseman, not depth at forward...

Well you're forgetting that when he brought Cole and Zidlicky we weren't trying to squeeze into the playoffs, we had a comfortable spot in the playoffs and were looking to make a deep run. It wasn't until the last like 20 or so games that we dropped the ball and kept losing the games. I remember people were calling the Zidlicky and Cole acquisition a curse jokingly.

At the time the trade was made, it was actually meaningful and the majority didn't disagree because we we're in a good position.

Before deadline we were around 35 - 15 - 11. Well above .500 team. And if I'm not mistaken we were 3rd or 4th in the conference.

But after February and after acquiring Zidlicky and Cole, the team hit a slump. Partly because Howard was never the same after injury and that's when Mrazek came in. But even he was super inconsistent and got pulled 4-5 times.

We ended the season with a record of 8 - 10 - 3.

The problem is Holland gets blamed for a lot of stuff hindsight. But the truth of the matter is Cole and Zidlicky were aquired for a team that was 35 - 15 - 11, one of the top team in the conferences trying to make a legit deep playoff run.

Legwand was purely because of the insane amount of injuries and the push for the playoffs. No GM is going to want to have a streak broken. That would be bad business. They make profit off this streak. And at the end of the day it's a business and entails revenue.

We as hockey fans want wins, they as management and ownership want $$$$$$$$$

And as it stands if you ain't winning the cup (which is probably the best way to gain revenue), you can still make dough from keeping the streak alive.

Edited July 31, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Having said all that though, I think after Holland's contract is up in 2018, it's best for the Red Wings to part ways with him in the GM role. Much like coaches I think GMs also have somewhat of a limited time course with teams. As it stands, Holland is the longest acting GM for a team.

Literally.

No one else has been the GM of a team as long as he has since he was hired in 1997. The last one was Lou Lamoriello, who moved onto the Toronto last year.

Obviously, I say only move on from Holland if there's a suitable replacement. Otherwise, he's still probably one of the best guys for the job.

Edited July 31, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

No matter how you slice it, they were not impactful trades in my opinion. Trading assets for way past their prime 36 and 38 year olds, when you're a team in transition is not good management in my opinion. This team is and has been in transition for a few years now and we need to continue building toward the future. I think it was silly to think that team could have won it all that year, with or without those two. Of course they "could have", but the odds were against them, with powerhouse teams like Chicago, Anaheim, Tampa and Washington... Hey I'm one of the few here that values the streak, and I want it to continue, but not at the expense of the future.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. My point had nothing to do with the streak or past trades. My point is that Holland needs to sac up and make a trade to bring in a top pair defenseman. He hasn't made any such significant trade in well over a decade, so I'm not so sure he has it in him. Of course, I'd love for him to prove me wrong, I just don't see it happening.

[Buppy 1,720]

I.U, did you not read the part of my post regarding those exact Legwand and Cole deals? Even though Jarnkrok isn't an elite center, and Janmark probably wouldn't have been given the same opportunity here, they're still not great trades. Same thing if we traded Holmstrom for Ladd or Versteeg at last year's trade deadline. People would have been pissed, not because anyone expects Holmstrom to be an elite center, but because a team in transition, aka not a Cup contender, should not be wasting assets on rentals. If Holland had the balls to put any of those assets together to make a legitimate impact trade, no one would say s***... Of course none of those players would garner an impact player by themselves, but in a package including a top 6 forward and possibly a pick, they absolutely would.

Holland has made less trades than any other team in the last however many years, and I'd bet even less impact trades. I love that we draft and develop so well, but when you have a glaring hole on your back end for 4 years now, something needs to be done about it. We need to pony up some assets and bring in that top pair defenseman...

Easy enough to say "they absolutely would", but I have to think if it was that easy it would have happened by now.

In those last 4 years, there's been a dozen or so good defensemen traded, and I'd say only a few who would really make a difference for us. Subban/Weber obviously weren't an option. We have nothing like Johansen so no on Jones too. Hamilton, and it's debatable whether or not he'll become a true top pair guy, went for quite a lot. Hell, Adam Larsson went for Hall.

I think when Holland says that teams don't want spare parts, it means he's actually tried to do just what people are saying, and no one is biting. I just don't think that the few teams out there who might have a good defenseman to trade are all that interested in Nyquist or Tatar, and piling a bunch of garbage on top of them doesn't make it any better. Worse, even.

Personally I think we should be thinking smaller; try to make a few small upgrades rather than look for the one big one, even though it might not make a very big difference. But I can't really blame Holland for trying to hold on to assets. If a deal does come along, it'll have been worth waiting for. I just have little confidence that one will.

Our best hope is probably to have Mantha and AA show some real star potential this year, and use one of them to get help on D.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm not suggesting trading spare parts, I'd overpay for a top pair defenseman. You don't think Mantha, Ouellet and two first round picks would have been enough to get Subban? Maybe it wouldn't have been, but I think Montreal would have listened, especially with the two Quebec natives included. That trade likely wouldn't have worked for us anyway, with the salary, I'm just saying there are always deals out there. Why is it that every other team out there is able to make trades, big or small, but the best trade Holland has made in years was Kindl to Florida for a 6th round pick?

There are teams out there loaded with defensemen and would like to add depth at forward. We are loaded with depth at forward and need to add a defenseman. Think there might be a fit there with a team like Anaheim? Or Nashville? Or Carolina?...

[Buppy 1,720]

I'm not suggesting trading spare parts, I'd overpay for a top pair defenseman. You don't think Mantha, Ouellet and two first round picks would have been enough to get Subban? Maybe it wouldn't have been, but I think Montreal would have listened, especially with the two Quebec natives included. That trade likely wouldn't have worked for us anyway, with the salary, I'm just saying there are always deals out there. Why is it that every other team out there is able to make trades, big or small, but the best trade Holland has made in years was Kindl to Florida for a 6th round pick?

There are teams out there loaded with defensemen and would like to add depth at forward. We are loaded with depth at forward and need to add a defenseman. Think there might be a fit there with a team like Anaheim? Or Nashville? Or Carolina?...

No, I don't think that would even be close. "Hysterically ridiculous" is probably how I'd characterize that offer.

You say every team is making trades, but again there have been very few trades for real impact players, and almost all of those are including players or picks much more valuable than what you seem to think it would take. And if you're going to give other teams credit for small trades, you have to do the same for Holland.

Like I said, I don't think Holland has made enough small trades. But he's made it pretty clear that he's not looking to, and I can at least understand the logic. Sure, we might be a bit better if we had traded for guys like Yandle and Coburn, but if we had used up assets for that and then saw Subban go for something similar we'd be kicking ourselves. And would be enough "better" to really matter anyway? Again, I don't think the big trade is out there right now, so I'd say go for the small one, but I do understand why Holland wouldn't.

Is there "a" trade out there? Probably. A good enough trade? That's another thing entirely. Is there a trade for Faulk or Fowler or Trouba? I doubt it. If there was, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't have happened already.

But things change all the time. A trade that wasn't there yesterday might be there tomorrow. We just have to hope that if one is out there, the team actually wants what we're selling.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I think the fact that you don't think that package even gets a conversation started with Bergevin is "hysterically ridiculous"... But that's beside the point. You don't think there's a deal out there to be made involving a top pair defenseman? I 100% do.

I think Holland is great at many things when it comes to managing a team. Making trades in the cap era, unfortunately is not one of them. I do think we have the assets to acquire a dozen different top tier defensemen. Holland's just not willing to put the pieces in place to get a deal done. That's my opinion.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

No, I don't think that would even be close. "Hysterically ridiculous" is probably how I'd characterize that offer.

You say every team is making trades, but again there have been very few trades for real impact players, and almost all of those are including players or picks much more valuable than what you seem to think it would take. And if you're going to give other teams credit for small trades, you have to do the same for Holland.

Like I said, I don't think Holland has made enough small trades. But he's made it pretty clear that he's not looking to, and I can at least understand the logic. Sure, we might be a bit better if we had traded for guys like Yandle and Coburn, but if we had used up assets for that and then saw Subban go for something similar we'd be kicking ourselves. And would be enough "better" to really matter anyway? Again, I don't think the big trade is out there right now, so I'd say go for the small one, but I do understand why Holland wouldn't.

Is there "a" trade out there? Probably. A good enough trade? That's another thing entirely. Is there a trade for Faulk or Fowler or Trouba? I doubt it. If there was, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't have happened already.

But things change all the time. A trade that wasn't there yesterday might be there tomorrow. We just have to hope that if one is out there, the team actually wants what we're selling.

Excuses. There are trades to be made that would improve the team. It doesn't have to be for a Subban. Anything that makes the team better will do. Considering Holland has made half the trades anyone else has the last several years than NJ and even fewer than the average team has, and the fact that the team has been slipping for the last 5 years while Holland has kept doing the same thing that doesn't work anymore, something needs to change. Either Holland needs to find a way to be more active and be willing to move roster players, or they need to make a change at GM.

[Buppy 1,720]

I think the fact that you don't think that package even gets a conversation started with Bergevin is "hysterically ridiculous"... But that's beside the point. You don't think there's a deal out there to be made involving a top pair defenseman? I 100% do.

I think Holland is great at many things when it comes to managing a team. Making trades in the cap era, unfortunately is not one of them. I do think we have the assets to acquire a dozen different top tier defensemen. Holland's just not willing to put the pieces in place to get a deal done. That's my opinion.

Maybe you're definition of top-tier is just a lot different than mine, because I would highly doubt there are a dozen available. I don't think there's been that many traded in the last 5 years.

Excuses. There are trades to be made that would improve the team. It doesn't have to be for a Subban. Anything that makes the team better will do. Considering Holland has made half the trades anyone else has the last several years than NJ and even fewer than the average team has, and the fact that the team has been slipping for the last 5 years while Holland has kept doing the same thing that doesn't work anymore, something needs to change. Either Holland needs to find a way to be more active and be willing to move roster players, or they need to make a change at GM.

Not making excuses. Holland has made it pretty clear that he's not looking for those kinds of trades. I think I made it pretty clear that I don't agree with him on that. Just saying I believe him when he says what he's looking for isn't out there.

[RusDRW 155]

Well, people are speaking top pair defs here... We are not getting them without offering Larkin++. Over the last few years there were few good defenseman available and traded. Petry, Myers, Bogosian are better than anyone we have currently perhaps, except for probably Kronwall. Now Canucks might be shopping Tanev. Holland had all the chances in the world to improve on D. Now we have Green and Ericsson signed to ridiculous contracts.

It seems the problem with Holland is that he believes that only one trade for top defenseman is needed. There is another way I believe. Why not to build three solid pairings instead of trying to go for top pairing guy. Even now it is not too late. Buy out Ericsson, trade Mantha+pick for Tanev or Edler, work out one more trade for deferenseman similar to Bogosian or Mayers offering Pulkkinen+Jurco+pick (add Sproul or Marchenko maybe). Is it that hard? Yes, it wouldn't be a top-5 defense in the NHL but at least we will improve in this aspect. I'm not saying he needs to do exactly these trades, these are just examples... Instead he stays pat doing nothing and complaining to media that no one wants to trade us a top pairing D.

[LeftWinger 4,935]

Well, don't you realize that soon playoff Ericsson is going to show up, so we can't get rid of him and then have him show up for some other team...

[krsmith17 7,191]

Maybe top "tier" wasn't the correct wording, but I don't just mean the elite of the elite. I didn't expect us to land Subban, and I don't expect us to go after Doughty or Pietrangelo either. However, I do think there are high end impact defensemen that could be had for the right price, even if we have to slightly overpay...

Any of the names that have already been thrown out there, including Trouba, Barrie, Shattenkirk, etc. could be had with a decent enough package. I also think there are a number of top defense prospects that could be made available if the price is right, including Theodore, Werenski, Sanheim, etc. And no, I don't believe every team would start and end a conversation with Larkin. Top players / prospects can and do get traded for much less...

It doesn't even need to be a blockbuster trade. I'd be okay seeing Holland do anything proactive in a trade. Why not trade Ouellet plus for a pick or another decent prospect with years remaining? New Jersey is just one team that is looking for defense help, there could be a fit there. Carolina are starving for offense and we have a log jam of forwards. Why not trade one of our many forwards (plus prospects / pick(s) for one of the Canes many young defensemen? Nyquist / Tatar / Jurco / Pulkkinen / Sheahan for Murphy / Pesce / Slavin / Fleury / Carrick...

[Buppy 1,720]

Maybe top "tier" wasn't the correct wording, but I don't just mean the elite of the elite. I didn't expect us to land Subban, and I don't expect us to go after Doughty or Pietrangelo either. However, I do think there are high end impact defensemen that could be had for the right price, even if we have to slightly overpay...

Any of the names that have already been thrown out there, including Trouba, Barrie, Shattenkirk, etc. could be had with a decent enough package. I also think there are a number of top defense prospects that could be made available if the price is right, including Theodore, Werenski, Sanheim, etc. And no, I don't believe every team would start and end a conversation with Larkin. Top players / prospects can and do get traded for much less...

It doesn't even need to be a blockbuster trade. I'd be okay seeing Holland do anything proactive in a trade. Why not trade Ouellet plus for a pick or another decent prospect with years remaining? New Jersey is just one team that is looking for defense help, there could be a fit there. Carolina are starving for offense and we have a log jam of forwards. Why not trade one of our many forwards (plus prospects / pick(s) for one of the Canes many young defensemen? Nyquist / Tatar / Jurco / Pulkkinen / Sheahan for Murphy / Pesce / Slavin / Fleury / Carrick...

And how many Trouba/Barrie/Shattenkirk-level defensemen have been traded in the last 5 years? I'm not just talking Norris candidates, and I don't think Holland is either. Top-pair, or even potential top-pair, defensemen just don't get traded very often.

Our trade assets right now are Nyquist/Tatar (maybe both), Smith, and a handful of OK prospects. Hardly anything we should think the rest of the league would be kicking down our door to get. Hockey players aren't currency. They don't have a real value. They're worth whatever the team we're trying to trade with thinks they're worth. It isn't far-fetched at all to think that maybe the few teams who might be offering what we want don't think that what we have to offer is that valuable.

And this started with me responding to you saying Holland needs to make an impact trade for a top-pair D. If you want to think smaller than that, I already said I think we should and most likely could do more in that area. But I understand why Holland doesn't want to use our limited assets in deals that probably aren't going to make much difference.