Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[marcaractac 3,963]

I would be because it's the right thing to do instead of hanging on to a meaningless streak. Sharks will need a rebuild soon too but they still have their defense fixed with Burns and Vlasic.

When you have a team that doesn't have a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and UFAs aren't exactly knocking on the door there are 2 options: trade or draft them. Toronto learned this the hard way...Vancouver is going to learn it the hard way too soon. So I'd rather see young guys, who need 1 or 2 years at the worst in the minors develop, than seeing guys like Mantha sent down so some patchwork players can play...and I'd rather see mistakes from learning by doing instead of veterans who could be used for more draft picks taking spots away.

To me it seems like the Wings want to learn it the hard way and whoever follows Holland will be stuck with a leafs like sitatution before they decided to rebuild. If people believe being a team without a clear vision that drafts around 15 plus and either misses the playoffs or is out in the first round is exciting or something desirable more power to them..to me the red wings way should be building towards cup or bust.

Until the playoff streak ends, this is how it is gonna be. It sucks, but it isn't gonna change.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Until the playoff streak ends, this is how it is gonna be. It sucks, but it isn't gonna change.

that's why I'm mad Boston lost to Ottawa

[kliq 3,755]

I don't see a team that has AA and Mantha being significantly worse than their current roster with overpaid Helm and band-aid Vanek, or telling Glendening that he's getting a two year deal that pays $950k a season or he can walk as being a crushing blow if he walks. Instead Helm gets a stupid deal and Glendening gets nearly double what he should.

I agree with the AA part, if it was up to me AA would be on the opening day roster, Mantha I am not too sure about as I haven't personally seen him play enough in the AHL and I dont know the guy perosnally so I do not know if he is physical and/or mentally ready for a top 6 spot on an NHL team.

I dont think Glendening or Helm's deals are as bad as you make them out to be. I think they only look as bad as they do when put them next to Abby's, Howard's and E's contracts. Take Away E and Howard and I think that those three look just fine (especially right now).

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I would be because it's the right thing to do instead of hanging on to a meaningless streak. Sharks will need a rebuild soon too but they still have their defense fixed with Burns and Vlasic.

When you have a team that doesn't have a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and UFAs aren't exactly knocking on the door there are 2 options: trade or draft them. Toronto learned this the hard way...Vancouver is going to learn it the hard way too soon. So I'd rather see young guys, who need 1 or 2 years at the worst in the minors develop, than seeing guys like Mantha sent down so some patchwork players can play...and I'd rather see mistakes from learning by doing instead of veterans who could be used for more draft picks taking spots away.

To me it seems like the Wings want to learn it the hard way and whoever follows Holland will be stuck with a leafs like sitatution before they decided to rebuild. If people believe being a team without a clear vision that drafts around 15 plus and either misses the playoffs or is out in the first round is exciting or something desirable more power to them..to me the red wings way should be building towards cup or bust.

Still not sure why you're using Vancouver and Toronto as examples. Also not sure what learning "it" the hard way means. If you mean you have to tank to success - your examples work against you. Both those teams were bad for extended periods Van (96-00), Leafs (06-) and weren't been able to put together championship teams from time in the tank.

Vancouver ruined an elite team with the goalie debacle of losing 2 elite goalies in Schneider and Luongo - 2 assets they should have got more for. Then they alienated Kesler with this debacle and by hiring Tortorella. If you want to learn from this example, keep your future goalie (Mrazek is Schneider in this parallel) and treat your Stars well and show them you're a competent GM.

I think our strategy is to keep our picks and try to draft well. I think we've gotten our future #1 center that way, and a goalie I think I think will be great and some other very good players. Looking at our recent 1st round picks (Larkin, Mantha, Svech) I don't think it out of the question that we pull a top defender in the next few years. Next year there seems to be a number of good Dmen in the draft that I've been checking out that we might get a chance at: Timothy Liljegren, Callan Foote (Adam foote's son), Nicolas Hagues (6'6")

In a few years, I really think we could put together a contender with our prospects and young players except for the big hole of #1D, so I don't get the sour outlook and desire to tear it down. There was some head-scratching moves this offseason, though, so makes a little more sense why people are frustrated.

Edited September 8, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Zetterberg Larkin Abdelkader

Tatar Nielsen Nyquist

Mantha AA Jurco

Sheahan Glendening Miller

you don't need to hand over a top 6 role to a rookie. Let them force someone off a top 2 line. Don't like Jurco? Fine, sign Vanek anyway or even better get another 4th line minimum wage guy and put Sheahan there and tell Aubrey, Bertuzzi, and everyone else that there's a regular spot or two up for grabs.

I have zero interest is spinning their wheels and doing nothing, I can watch the Tigers and Lions do that. I want the Wings to be focused on either winning the Cup this year or in 3 years. Right now neither of those options are the focus.

And giving a guy who has never even come closely to 20 goals that much miney for 5 years and a guy who defines fourth liner a four year deal worth almost $2 mil is bad regardless of the deals you compare them to. It's not as bad as this dumb deal isn't a good defense in any way shape or form.

And anyone who questions my fandom because I'm pissed at the culture of mediocrity that's infested the team can bite my shiny metal ass.

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

I would be because it's the right thing to do instead of hanging on to a meaningless streak. Sharks will need a rebuild soon too but they still have their defense fixed with Burns and Vlasic.

When you have a team that doesn't have a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and UFAs aren't exactly knocking on the door there are 2 options: trade or draft them. Toronto learned this the hard way...Vancouver is going to learn it the hard way too soon. So I'd rather see young guys, who need 1 or 2 years at the worst in the minors develop, than seeing guys like Mantha sent down so some patchwork players can play...and I'd rather see mistakes from learning by doing instead of veterans who could be used for more draft picks taking spots away.

To me it seems like the Wings want to learn it the hard way and whoever follows Holland will be stuck with a leafs like sitatution before they decided to rebuild. If people believe being a team without a clear vision that drafts around 15 plus and either misses the playoffs or is out in the first round is exciting or something desirable more power to them..to me the red wings way should be building towards cup or bust.

What will you say if larkin becomes a legit 1c and in 2-3 years were a legit contender while still holding on to the "meaningless" streak? I'd be happy with 5 more years of sub-par hockey just to take away Boston's record TBH

[DickieDunn 2,571]

What will you say if larkin becomes a legit 1c and in 2-3 years were a legit contender while still holding on to the "meaningless" streak? I'd be happy with 5 more years of sub-par hockey just to take away Boston's record TBH

Not going to be a contender unless No-Trade Kenny stops sitting on his hands. The defense will blow. Besides, with most of the team signed long term for too much money, how are they going to keep Larkin and the rest of these future stars that are going to turn the team into legit contenders? Edited September 8, 2016 by DickieDunn

[kliq 3,755]

I have zero interest is spinning their wheels and doing nothing, I can watch the Tigers and Lions do that. I want the Wings to be focused on either winning the Cup this year or in 3 years. Right now neither of those options are the focus.

And giving a guy who has never even come closely to 20 goals that much miney for 5 years and a guy who defines fourth liner a four year deal worth almost $2 mil is bad regardless of the deals you compare them to. It's not as bad as this dumb deal isn't a good defense in any way shape or form.

And anyone who questions my fandom because I'm pissed at the culture of mediocrity that's infested the team can bite my shiny metal ass.

The Helm deal is not as bad as your little tantrum is making it out to be. If we were paying him to be a goal scorer then yes I would agree with you, but the guy brings much more to this team then just scoring goals which is evident by the fact that other teams were willing to pay him as much or more then we did. The Glendening deal is a bit high in salary, but you are making i sound like he is being paid 5 mil/year. These deals are not going to break us.

I dont think we will have an issue with paying guys like Larkin and co. as by the time they are due for major increases in pay not only will the cap be up, but guys like Miller, Ott, Green, Kronwall, Smith etc. will be gone and I would be shocked if Zetterberg is not on LTIR as I cant see his back holding up until 2021.

I'm not questioning your fandom and you can tell me to "bite your shiny ass" all you want, to me you just sound like a petulant child.

[kliq 3,755]

What will you say if larkin becomes a legit 1c and in 2-3 years were a legit contender while still holding on to the "meaningless" streak? I'd be happy with 5 more years of sub-par hockey just to take away Boston's record TBH

Good point Euro Twins, I'd also like to know what defines the streak as being "meaningless". Maybe Frank Grimes from Letsgowings.com doesn't give a crap about it, but ownership, management, coaches, players etc. take great pride in that streak and its disrespectful to people like Mike Ilitich, Scotty Bowman, Mike Babcock, Ken Holland etc. when its called "meaningless".....its not.

With that being said, I am not satisfied with making the playoffs and being eliminated in the first round every year. If we were a team of all older vets and doing this, I would be pissed. However with a core moving forward of Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Marchenko, Svechnikov etc. Good secondary and still very young players like Tatar and Nyquist and young guys that still could surprise (ie. XO, Sproul, Jurco, Pulkkinen) I am excited of where this team is going. Now if we traded our young players for a bunch of 29-33 year olds that would make us slightly better this year, I would not be happy, but we are not doing that as like I have said a million times, we are re-building.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

What will you say if larkin becomes a legit 1c and in 2-3 years were a legit contender while still holding on to the "meaningless" streak? I'd be happy with 5 more years of sub-par hockey just to take away Boston's record TBH

What I will say is this: let's wait and see. I think Larkin for sure has the talent, skill and work ethic to become a very solid top 6 center, will he become a number 1 center? Way too early to tell and I'm not going to have such ridiculous expectations for him.

And yes the streak is meaningless if it gets into the way of building towards a Stanley Cup. Great Boston's streak is longer fine, I'm sure UFAs are impressed by such streaks as seen with Stamkos, Lucic and Okposo. Even if Larkin does become a number 1 center, who is going to be the number 1 defenseman, who is going to be the highend sniper and who's going to be the second line center? Nielsen in 3 years at 35 years? yeah sure. LIke I've mentioned if people are happy with maybe making the playoffs and first round exits fine, more power to you my expectations for the Wings are building towards the cup and right now Ken Holland is NOT doing that. I'm also not going into semantics he himself stated that he's not rebuilding because he still believes this team has a chance..well if so trade for a defenseman and not talk about "hockey trades and being more aggressive" and then doing nothing other than bring in more patchwork players. I don#t care if people think it's disrespectful or whatever because sub par hockey with patchwork fixes each and every year is disrespectful to a program of excellence and to a team that was once known as the class of the NHL.

Look at the history of all the former cup winners:

Each one had at least 2 top 5 picks:

Chicago: Toews, Kane

Pittsburgh: MAF, Crosby, Malkin

LA: Kopitar, Doughty

Boston: they did it without a top 5 pick...but had a performance for the ages from Timmy Thomas, an elite center Bergeron and Chara clearing everyone and everything.

[kliq 3,755]

What I will say is this: let's wait and see. I think Larkin for sure has the talent, skill and work ethic to become a very solid top 6 center, will he become a number 1 center? Way too early to tell and I'm not going to have such ridiculous expectations for him.

And yes the streak is meaningless if it gets into the way of building towards a Stanley Cup. Great Boston's streak is longer fine, I'm sure UFAs are impressed by such streaks as seen with Stamkos, Lucic and Okposo. Even if Larkin does become a number 1 center, who is going to be the number 1 defenseman, who is going to be the highend sniper and who's going to be the second line center? Nielsen in 3 years at 35 years? yeah sure. LIke I've mentioned if people are happy with maybe making the playoffs and first round exits fine, more power to you my expectations for the Wings are building towards the cup and right now Ken Holland is NOT doing that. I'm also not going into semantics he himself stated that he's not rebuilding because he still believes this team has a chance..well if so trade for a defenseman and not talk about "hockey trades and being more aggressive" and then doing nothing other than bring in more patchwork players. I don#t care if people think it's disrespectful or whatever because sub par hockey with patchwork fixes each and every year is disrespectful to a program of excellence and to a team that was once known as the class of the NHL.

Look at the history of all the former cup winners:

Each one had at least 2 top 5 picks:

Chicago: Toews, Kane

Pittsburgh: MAF, Crosby, Malkin

LA: Kopitar, Doughty

Boston: they did it without a top 5 pick...but had a performance for the ages from Timmy Thomas, an elite center Bergeron and Chara clearing everyone and everything.

Kopitar wasn't a top 5 pick, you are just making that up to try to prove a point. He was picked 11th overall in 2005.

You make it sound like having a top 5 pick is a requirement/guarantee in winning a cup. Obviously drafting a franchise player will help those odds, but it by no means assures anything.

You list a couple teams that have won a cup with 2 top 5 picks in Chicago and Pittsburgh, but that is telling a story by using a small sample size. It can be done the other way as well.

The easiest go to is Edmonton, since 2006 they have had 6 top 5 picks, 9 top 10 picks and they have not made the playoffs one time in that span. How many top 5 or top 10 picks have Carolina, Columbus, Buffalo, Winnipeg/Atlanta, Florida, NJ, Colorado etc. had and done absolutely nothing.

Tanking is the right thing to do in certain situations (ie. I am not against Toronto tanking), we are not in that situation. We are a couple stars away from being contenders, and a couple of injuries away from being awful as we are in an age of parity.

I love how you say you are "NOT" going to argue semantics, only to then argue semantics in the same sentence (I think you did that twice on this page lol). We get it Frank, in your mind the only way to move a team in the right direction is to trade every player over the age of 25, get last place in the league, get a first overall pick who becomes a superstar, then win a cup. Great on paper, but in the real world it works only a small handful of times and more often then not it sinks a team. Guys like Kane, Crosby, McDavid etc. are not a guarantee to land by taking that approach.

I'm not even going to address the false narrative of UFA's refusing to come here, that has been proven wrong many times.

Nobody is saying that Larkin is going to win the Hart Frank, but the kid has talent and is the kind of player you build around. Add in Mrazek and the rest of the kids and we are building towards something. Maybe not this year, but in a couple years I can see us being legit contenders. Lets just all cross our fingers and hope we get that d-man. We all want the same thing here, nobody is cheering for mediocrity, we just disagree with how to get to our end goal.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Not going to be a contender unless No-Trade Kenny stops sitting on his hands. The defense will blow. Besides, with most of the team signed long term for too much money, how are they going to keep Larkin and the rest of these future stars that are going to turn the team into legit contenders?

"Most of the team" is not signed to long-term deals.

We have some big contracts coming off in the next while and I don't foresee any problems. As prospects and young players we have most of them on cheaper RFA deals or entry level for a while. first "biggish" player to get UFA status is Nyquist in 3 years from now.

-Next year without Ott, Miller, Vanek, Kindl's penalty there's 3,905 - some goes Tatar,+Smith?(RFAs) then free agents,

-Green's 6 mill is gone in 2 years - some goes to Larkin's+Mrazek's RFA deals, maybe small chance that we don't fit Sheahan in (but cap will go up so I"m sure we'll have space)

-Howard's 5.2 and Kronwall's 4.7 is gone in 3 years - re-sign Nyquist, roll in the extra cash.

-Ericsson's 4.25 is gone in 4 years

Edited September 8, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[e_prime 1,936]

"Most of the team" is not signed to long-term deals.

We have some big contracts coming off in the next while and I don't foresee any problems. As prospects and young players we have most of them on cheaper RFA deals or entry level for a while. first "biggish" player to get UFA status is Nyquist in 3 years from now.

-Next year without Ott, Miller, Vanek, Kindl's penalty there's 3,905 - some goes Tatar,+Smith?(RFAs) then free agents,

-Green's 6 mill is gone in 2 years - some goes to Larkin's+Mrazek's RFA deals, maybe small chance that we don't fit Sheahan in (but cap will go up so I"m sure we'll have space)

-Howard's 5.2 and Kronwall's 4.7 is gone in 3 years - re-sign Nyquist, roll in the extra cash.

-Ericsson's 4.25 is gone in 4 years

Don't you know that the definition of MOST is 6 of 23... 26%. That's 5 of 13 forwards, 1 of 7 defensemen, and zero goalies signed long-term.

Of course, that's going by MY definition of long-term. (6 years left 'till expiration) Dickie's might be different.

That's looking at things probably the most realistically, however If you really consider things based on moves Holland should make...

One or more of Tatar, Nyquist, and/or Smith could be used in a trade for that defenseman we all dream of making their extensions null.

Either one or both of Howard and Ericsson's contracts will be gone via trade, buyout, or Expansion Draft -- well before their contract expiration dates.

Finally, it wouldn't surprise me, and I think kliq mentioned this before, if both Kronner and Z are LITR'd before their contracts are up due to injury.

Edited September 8, 2016 by e_prime

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Ridiculous expectations Frank?

Like you put on numerous prospects who aren't property of the Red Wings? lol

[kickazz 5,459]

Look at the history of all the former cup winners:

Each one had at least 2 top 5 picks:

Chicago: Toews, Kane

Pittsburgh: MAF, Crosby, Malkin

LA: Kopitar, Doughty

Boston: they did it without a top 5 pick...but had a performance for the ages from Timmy Thomas, an elite center Bergeron and Chara clearing everyone and everything.

Lmfao. You were convincing for a second there.

But then you basically argued against yourself by bringing Boston up and came up with a pretty bad excuse. "They did it without a top 5 pick but had performance for the ages".

Last I checked you don't win a Stanley cup over 29 other teams unless someone is having a great performance. No team wins the cup if everyone is playing average on their roster lol.

Edited September 8, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Most was an overstatement. 10 players are signed for at least three more years. Of those, Zetterberg and Kronwall are at the ends of their careers and may (probably in Zetterberg's) case not finish the deal. Glendening, Helm, Abdelkader are average to bottom end players. Nielsen will probably be an overpaid 3rd liner his last year. Dekeyser is the only one who has a real chance of being worth his deal. Of the guys who aren't signed long term, Green, Smith, Ott, and Miller stand out as guys you dont want to lose. The rest you at least hope will show enough to want to keep.

The absolutely best case scenario is they end up spending ariund $7 mil a season for their 4th line in three years when Helm is forced down there by actual scorong line players and Holland, or the new GM, can find a way to move some bad contracts and dead money paid to players on ltir retirement.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

Players that I would like to see gone sometime this season or before next starts. (and not just because I don't like them, but due to other needs as well, and not lost via waivers)

Helm, Howard, Nyquist, Smith(if we get a Dman,) Ericsson, Pulkkinen(if we need to,) I'd like to get something for 2 of the 3 D kids instead of waiving them. I don't think Ott will be back, nor Miller, unless we swap Howard for Ryan Miller and sign Drew to play one season with Ryan.

I do believe Kronwall with struggle to stay in the lineup this season and call it quits after...either LTIR or retire. So that will seriously put an emphasis on getting a top pairing guy before the deadline.

Howard and E need to be gone whichever way they can. Helm....well, we won't get into that. Nyquist is a key piece in a trade, plus getting his salary off the cap. (Re-signing Tatar at similar.)

How many players will be gone before next season? ZERO...and Holland will waste 2 protects on Z and Kronwall and expose younger players that we'll need into our future.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Most was an overstatement. 10 players are signed for at least three more years. Of those, Zetterberg and Kronwall are at the ends of their careers and may (probably in Zetterberg's) case not finish the deal. Glendening, Helm, Abdelkader are average to bottom end players. Nielsen will probably be an overpaid 3rd liner his last year. Dekeyser is the only one who has a real chance of being worth his deal. Of the guys who aren't signed long term, Green, Smith, Ott, and Miller stand out as guys you dont want to lose. The rest you at least hope will show enough to want to keep.

The absolutely best case scenario is they end up spending ariund $7 mil a season for their 4th line in three years when Helm is forced down there by actual scorong line players and Holland, or the new GM, can find a way to move some bad contracts and dead money paid to players on ltir retirement.

First of all, 3 years is not long term. Howard, Nyquist, and Kronwall are the ones with 3 years left.

Included in your 10 is Franzen who will almost definitely never play another game so including him makes no sense.

...so we're back to the 6 that e_prime mentioned. I don't even think Glendening's 4 year extension should be considered long term.

Edited September 8, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Franzen is going to be an issue unless his contract is traded once Kronwall or Zetterberg are done. Helm on the 4th line taking up that much cash with Glendening is going to be an issue.

[kickazz 5,459]

Franzen is going to be an issue unless his contract is traded once Kronwall or Zetterberg are done.

Lol what?

Edited September 8, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

teams can only go 10% over the cap. Franzen plus either Kronwall or Zetterberg is more than that

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Franzen is going to be an issue unless his contract is traded once Kronwall or Zetterberg are done. Helm on the 4th line taking up that much cash with Glendening is going to be an issue.

Doubt that Helm will be on the 4th line. If it does happen in a few years it's because Svech, Mantha, Bertuzzi, have grabbed a higher spot - In that case we'll have an inexpensive 2nd/3rd line or whatever. I don't see why that would be an issue except some sense of propriety that you might have. Helm and Glendening would be a killer 4th line - if it happens, it's because we'll have some very good depth.

I think both of Kronwall and Z have at least 3 years left playing - Maybe with Kronwall's last year being largely on the bench a la Todd Bertuzzi. That would finish K's contract and leave only 1 year with Z and Franzen on LTIR relief. It would limit us to a certain extent. This article breaks it down but I can't say I fully understand it:

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2016/4/27/11505136/red-wings-cap-recapture-strategy-ltir-loophole-has-its-limits

From what I think I understand, It seems it could just limit UFA buying power and force us to put Svech, Saarijarvi or whatever cheap prospects on the team. If that would be the case, that wouldn't be the worst thing.

Or if their careers are shorter than that and 14 mill on LTIR does prove to be a problem - As we've seen with Pronger, Datsyuk, etc. - dead contracts can be traded.

Edited September 9, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[kickazz 5,459]

teams can only go 10% over the cap. Franzen plus either Kronwall or Zetterberg is more than that

I get the Kronwall assumption, but why again is Zetterberg not going to play in 3 years (when Kronwall's contract is up) ? What about his medical history allows you to conclude he will be on an LTIR? His rate of games played per season has increased the last two years (by a significant amount actually). Drop in skill level isn't the same as injury lol. Based on his health the last two years and his game play, there's probably a stronger indication that he'll play out most of his contract as an expensive 3rd liner. With Kronwall I'd probably deduce that he could go LTIR if his knees aren't fixed soon. If they are able to operate on it then he could very well finish out the contract. Without knowing their medical history (we have no idea what's wrong with Kronwall, they've been very vague) we can't really judge what's going to happen.

You're making a ton of assumptions here without any solid evidence.

Edited September 9, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

even if Zetterberg plays 3 years, his cap hit alone eats most of tat 10% even with cap increases

[e_prime 1,936]

Franzen is going to be an issue unless his contract is traded once Kronwall or Zetterberg are done. Helm on the 4th line taking up that much cash with Glendening is going to be an issue.

Once again Dickie: You are talking worst case scenario.

I'm sorry if I put into your head that Z and Kronwall are GOING TO BE DONE in the next year or two.

I get what you are saying and it's not that the points you are trying to make are without validity, but the doom and gloom just overshadows the points you make.

Sure, it might be a problem that Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Franzen being on LITR at the same time is an issue for us... and that's a HUGE MIGHT.

Kronwall has THREE YEARS. Franzen a whopping FOUR.

If needed, Holland may be able to trade one of those contracts in the future if necessary... or one may just straight up retire.

Which would hurt us on the cap-recapture penalty, but it might be something that has to be done.

Players get bought out, and the buyout process can sometimes be costly, but if managed they're not the end all and be all of the teams cap.

I'll dredge up the cap-recapture penalty vs. buyout info I've got saved somewhere if someone wants to see it, but the possibility of Z, Kronner, and Franzen all being on LITR or retiring without finishing their contracts at the same time are the least of our immediate cap woes and certainly not unmanageable in the near future.

Also, when is the CBA up? NHL and NHLPA options in 2019? For all we know cap-recapture penalties might go away... or buyouts of contracts before a certain year might have new rules... etc.

Edited September 9, 2016 by e_prime