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Hockeytown0001

Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

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... Nyquist and Tatar are what they are, small one dimensional wingers. Pulk is barely an NHL player. AA is likely a second line forward, Dekeyser MIGHT be a #2 with the right #1, everyone else in the D pipeline are 4/5 guys. I'm not saying dump them for nothing or a vet, but if you can move them for a good young player it's stupid not to, even if it's a two for one deal. The team that gets the better player wins because one elite player is more valuable than two secondary players.

But if that's true, and it would be such an obvious win for us, "stupid not to"...why is the other team making the deal?

We aren't going to get an elite player, because none of the guys rumored to be available are elite players. Maybe they could become elite, but far from a sure thing.

There seems to be a good fit with Anaheim, where we both have what the other is looking for. But that doesn't mean that they like the exact players we have to offer, much less like them more than any other offer they might get.

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If Holland was going to overpay for a defenseman, I think it would have happened by now.

He's being patient for the right deal or no deal at all. Which is just fine with me.

Cam Fowler will never be a top 2 defenceman as he doesn't do well when matched up against other top players. He's been sheltered in Anaheim.

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If Holland was going to overpay for a defenseman, I think it would have happened by now.

He's being patient for the right deal or no deal at all. Which is just fine with me.

Cam Fowler will never be a top 2 defenceman as he doesn't do well when matched up against other top players. He's been sheltered in Anaheim.

Fowler is 24, still plenty of room to improve. And why the he'll didn't Holland have that philosophy for free agents?

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Fowler is 24, still plenty of room to improve. And why the he'll didn't Holland have that philosophy for free agents?

How about an Eriksson and picks for Chelios, or Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan, or any of the good trades Holland used to pull off? Nyquist and Tatar are what they are, small one dimensional wingers. Pulk is barely an NHL player. AA is likely a second line forward, Dekeyser MIGHT be a #2 with the right #1, everyone else in the D pipeline are 4/5 guys. I'm not saying dump them for nothing or a vet, but if you can move them for a good young player it's stupid not to, even if it's a two for one deal. The team that gets the better player wins because one elite player is more valuable than two secondary players.

So...Fowler at 24 will improve and is worth the gamble, while Tatar at 25 and Nyquist at 26 will always be stuck at the same level?

...or familiarity breed contempt and lets check out the grass on the other side.

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Fowler is younger anyway, D take longer to mature, so yes, Fowler has room to improve a lit more than Tatar and Nyquist

While it's true that D take longer to mature and 24 is fairly young, Fowler's actually been in the league for six years. I think it's pretty rare someone that's been in the league that long making that significant a step up in their game. Dubnyk maybe, but changing goaltending techniques is a different matter. I guess you could count Kronwall as an example since he expanded his game when he became a 1st pair after 6 years of being a second pair guy, though I think that was more of a change than getting better.

I think it's a little ironic that you're the one making this argument since you often write how others shouldn't count the potential of certain players.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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FWIW, Friedman on a potential Trouba trade: https://www.nhl.com/video/nhl-tonight-elliotte-friedman/t-277774708/c-44602403?tag=program&tagValue=NHL%20Tonight

“I still think there’s some roadblocks there with Trouba,” said Friedman. “They announced their captains today. It was three guys there who signed long-term extensions with the team. Wheeler did it three years ago. Byfuglien did it last year. Scheifele did it this summer. I think there’s some question about Trouba too and this year. I don’t know where it’s going to go.

“The one thing I do think is this, and I’ve been told this. Some teams that were trying to potentially talk trade with Winnipeg for Trouba… You know, when Winnipeg got Patrik Laine in the draft – they ended up second – it complicated the whole process. Because Winnipeg at one point in time was looking for scoring. Well now, they’ve got a tremendous young scorer. A guy who is going to be a stud in this league. So Winnipeg is looking at it and saying, ‘We don’t necessarily need that now.’ So a couple of teams have told me that Winnipeg getting Laine has complicated the entire process of getting a deal done there.

“I’m not sure where that one’s going to go. But Winnipeg, I think, is looking at it and saying, ‘Hey, we don’t have as many needs now, so if you want to get Jacob Trouba off our hands, it’s going to have to be a great offer. We’re not just giving him away.’”

The bolded has pretty much been expected all along but it makes sense that (sort of) winning the draft lottery changed things a bit. I still hope he gets traded (hopefully to Detroit).. the guy should be a top two d man sooner rather than later and it doesn't seem like the jets feel the same way.

Edited by amato

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I st not to get overhyped about what a 20 year old is doing in juniors or GR when people say things like Nyquist is the next Zetterberg or Pulkkunen is going to score 30 or 40 goals a year in the NHL. That's not even close to saying a 24 year old NHL player could still take a step forward.

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Most would say no to that deal as Red Wings fans but I think it's pretty realistic considering all Winnepeg really needs is a goalie. It would be a tough decision for sure but I might pull the trigger on this deal if I was Holland. Wings have done well in the past without elite goaltending and goalie prices are going to skyrocket by the time Mrazek wants to be paid if he's a top 10 goalie

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Mraz for Trouba straight up would be a tough one to swallow (I really like watching mrazek) but probably pretty fair since their both young with high ceilings.. That's one of those deals that we wouldn't know the winner of for at least a few years, maybe more.

Edited by amato

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Mraz for Trouba straight up would be a tough one to swallow (I really like watching mrazek) but probably pretty fair since their both young with high ceilings.. That's one of those deals that we wouldn't know the winner of for at least a few years, maybe more.

Who would be our goalie of the future? Howard?

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Does anyone here feel that Trouba for Mrazek is a fair deal?

Not saying that this is what I feel Holland should offer the Jets, but as others have already said - you gotta give up something to get something in return.

I have to say no to that. Mrazek was playing Vezina level hockey up until February last year, Trouba has never even sniffed Norris level hockey. I dont look at Mrazek in the same category as AA or Mantha, he isn't a guy that has "potential", he has played high level hockey for more then a few games here or there, and he has done it in the NHL not the minors.

I know some like to put down every prospect and young player we have due to others putting them on a pedestal, but Mrazek and Larkin IMO are the kids we need to build around and unless we are getting a legit superstar back (Toruba is not that), I'm not trading them.

or better yet, package Howard in a deal for Trouba.

I wonder if a package like AA or Mantha, Howard, and Marchenko for Trouba and Pavlec would interest them?

I st not to get overhyped about what a 20 year old is doing in juniors or GR when people say things like Nyquist is the next Zetterberg or Pulkkunen is going to score 30 or 40 goals a year in the NHL. That's not even close to saying a 24 year old NHL player could still take a step forward.

There are always people over hyping prospects, that will never change. The key is identifying the true gems and not making stupid moves when you have them.

I get what you are saying with Fowler as he would likely be our #2 guy, but when you have played in the NHL for 6 years, its unlikely that you are going to go from a second pairing guy on an elite team to a elite guy on an above average team. He will just be miscast on Detroit and start to show his weaknesses.

Edited by kliq

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Holland repeatedly said we need stars. Or really good players, ie just below star status. It would make negative sense to trade our 2 brightest shining lights on our RedWings sky, being Larkin and Mrazek of course.

If you ask me there's another shiny object up there, Athanasiou. Can't wait to watch him laserbeam through the defensive corps.

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I have to say no to that. Mrazek was playing Vezina level hockey up until February last year, Trouba has never even sniffed Norris level hockey. I dont look at Mrazek in the same category as AA or Mantha, he isn't a guy that has "potential", he has played high level hockey for more then a few games here or there, and he has done it in the NHL not the minors.

I know some like to put down every prospect and young player we have due to others putting them on a pedestal, but Mrazek and Larkin IMO are the kids we need to build around and unless we are getting a legit superstar back (Toruba is not that), I'm not trading them.

I wonder if a package like AA or Mantha, Howard, and Marchenko for Trouba and Pavlec would interest them?

There are always people over hyping prospects, that will never change. The key is identifying the true gems and not making stupid moves when you have them.

I get what you are saying with Fowler as he would likely be our #2 guy, but when you have played in the NHL for 6 years, its unlikely that you are going to go from a second pairing guy on an elite team to a elite guy on an above average team. He will just be miscast on Detroit and start to show his weaknesses.

Bolded part: Good point. Didn't think about it like that..

That package may be a decent starting point.. I think the Jets would want Mantha over AA; which is who I'd rather give up of the two anyway. But there's no way to know for sure unless a deal is reached.

I'd much rather have that trade than mrazek straight up but didn't the jets just extend pavlec? I guess it would all depend on how high they are on Mantha/AA basically but it seems like not enough. Maybe throw in a good draft pick or a swap of draft picks that results in them moving up a round or two.

Edited by amato

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Goaltending. Send them Howard, it'll put 'em over the top.

Hellebuyck is their Mrazek. Highly regarded prospect, great size, athleticism, and performed very well for them last year. They might want a good vet as a mentor/insurance, but I doubt they'd want Jimmy with his contract.

...

I get what you are saying with Fowler as he would likely be our #2 guy, but when you have played in the NHL for 6 years, its unlikely that you are going to go from a second pairing guy on an elite team to a elite guy on an above average team. He will just be miscast on Detroit and start to show his weaknesses.

Technically, Fowler did lead the Ducks in minutes/game. Their defense is stacked and aside from the PP they don't seem to worry about deployment at all, so it's hard to really identify a top defenseman. But he did spend quite a lot of his time playing in key situations and against top opposition.

I don't disagree with the assessment that he probably won't take any major steps forward, but it's probably going a little too far to say he's just a 2nd pairing guy. Low-end of 1st-pair spectrum, or maybe a 1st/2nd tweener at worst.

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I'd like to see a dynamic player on the blueline but I'm not so sure having an elite #1 is the end all be all to being a perennial contender. The defense needs to take a collective step forward while Kronwall and Ericsson take steps back and their offensive output should increase just by the new distribution of minutes. Wings can be a great team without a Norris winner if we have a balanced defense that compliments each other and the teams game plan

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Bolded part: Good point. Didn't think about it like that..

That package may be a decent starting point.. I think the Jets would want Mantha over AA; which is who I'd rather give up of the two anyway. But there's no way to know for sure unless a deal is reached.

I'd much rather have that trade than mrazek straight up but didn't the jets just extend pavlec? I guess it would all depend on how high they are on Mantha/AA basically but it seems like not enough. Maybe throw in a good draft pick or a swap of draft picks that results in them moving up a round or two.

Trading Trouba would create a bigger weakness than anything they currently have. Their defense is already weak. I don't see any trade happening that doesn't include a realistic replacement for Trouba going back. Maybe if they get super desperate. But I just don't see a good trade fit between us and them.

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